The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida

[edinmass]

DAVE.......Thats a COOL tractor!

[Dandy Dave]

3 hours ago, blastermike said:

So Dave this is a wet clutch?  and those two brass plugs in the side of the rear 1/2 of the flywheel are for filling with engine oil ?

mike

Yes. It is a wet clutch. And yes. The plugs are for draining and filling. Dandy Dave! 

[Dandy Dave]

7 minutes ago, edinmass said:

DAVE.......Thats a COOL tractor!

Dear Ed, I knew you would get a new appreciation for old tractor mechanics. Sincerely, Dandy Dave!

[Dandy Dave]

3 hours ago, blastermike said:

So Dave this is a wet clutch?  and those two brass plugs in the side of the rear 1/2 of the flywheel are for filling with engine oil ?

mike

I'll repost this photo and provide the info in the book. This book also has information on the care of the Cone Clutch that must have been in use in some models also. I would say the book is around 1913 or 14. Dandy Dave! 

  

Edited March 18, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[edinmass]

More to report on the 1915 White. The car has tires on it installed back in 1970. Not too many miles, but suffering from side wall cracking. No problem......throw four grand at Coker, and just install them. NOPE! I have done tons of old, hard solid and rock hard tires for decades..........well these take the cake. I was expecting twent minutes a tire to remove and replace them. WRONG! Both Phil and I got our asses kicked...........bad. I had to stop and order a tool I have never used before......a slide hammer bead breaker. Well after three hours for each wheel, we have two off and a partial on another. We were working in an air conditioned garage with ceiling fans..........we were not sweating like pigs, and bleeding half as much.....literally. For the first time in seven years Big Phil said to me.......I have had enough. The old man with fifteen years on my usually works me into the ground. Not today.........he was laughing hard and smiling.......but he hit his limit. We didn’t even have a few shots of Crown Royal after finishing...........we were that tired. Usually we would get up early Saturday morning, have breakfast, and get back at them...........not this time. Phil said something like xxxx those tires and said see you Monday. They are two man tires at a minimum.........so they will wait. I would normally go at them alone........not in this case. So I expect to be sore for the next seven to ten days by the time we are done.......so much for it’s just another split ring rim. Photos tomorrow........

[dibarlaw]

Ed, I have felt your pain! I had a beautiful with no cracks (somewhat flexible) I believe Pre-WWII U.S. Peerless 600 X 22 to use as a spare on my 1925 Buick Master. The old tire that was on it was about an equally old Wards Riverside that was just crumbling to pieces.

No problem removing that one. Just break it off in chunks and tear out the old red inner tube that seemed to glue itself to the inside of the tire. I had the rim powder coated, installed a new tube and flap. After an hour fight with the tire, I just needed to set the rims back together and close the lock. Much manipulation of the split rim tool would not allow things to snap back in place. (The tire was not as flexible as I had hoped.) I had a 5' digging bar to give the final push. I was standing on the tire/rim leaning into the bar against my right shoulder. POP!! Ther sound was my rotator cuff tearing in 3 places!

After the surgery, 6 weeks healing and then rehab I was able to finish the job.

Edited March 19, 2022 by dibarlaw
spelling (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Tearing a cuff is a huge bummer………we got a workout, but we try and keep it under control. Phil slipped a few times with the bar………almost smashing my arm. I kept telling him he’s getting too old to try and take me out. I still have the moves. And zi keep telling him he needs a bigger bar to put my lights out.

[Grimy]

Larry, for those rims (similar except style of latch to my Pierce Series 80) I use the rim tool only to pull one end inwards to remove the old tire and tube.  To close the rim after the new tire and tube are in place, I use a bottle jack and two short lengths of 4x4 lumber, which seems to be much more controllable than the rim tool.

[blastermike]

Ed fighting with tyres sounds like the same sort of fun im having fighting  with rust!  had a go at the clutch today had to use heat to get the spring release collar off, but with the outer flywheel piece i just warmed it a bit then have soaked it in diesel, it does look really tight, theres only a very small gap around the edge where its threaded, im planning on making a bar with two bits of round bar or bolts welded on to fit into the two small holes?, it may be necessary to drill those holes out a bit and use a bigger diam piece of round bar or bolt so i can get a stronger purchase on the clutch plate, pictures below

Note i took Daves advice and used my little press to hold the spring tension which is actually quiet strong and when the spring when released it is almost twice as long as when in the held position

mike

[Dandy Dave]

Glad to see you have that apart safely. Now the get the threads moving on the main disk. Dandy Dave!

[edinmass]

Mike....was it left or right hand thread? How about a photo of the tool you used? Thanks.........Phil and I will be in the same spot in a few weeks.........

[blastermike]

Ed the clutch release collar wound of to the left, just like a standard nut and bolt, i ended up using a punch to gently tap it around by the two holes on the side of the collar, once it had done a couple of revolutions it could  be wound of by hand,  but i did heat it up 

i suspect the plate in the flywheel half is going to be a tough bugger to get out?? We will see

[Dandy Dave]

Right hand threads as I suspected. This makes sense as it would tighten in the direction the unit spins. I would use a spanner wrench like is used on a water pump only with a round pin for the hole. Dandy Dave!

[George K]

On 3/4/2022 at 3:44 PM, LI_BENTLEY said:

 

Definitely a typo the serial/engine no. Is also wrong does not match any White number information.

Just picked up the Austria catalog to put it back on the shelf. Quick look and saw this. It appears they knew the difference.

[George K]

Should of loaded this way.

[Porsche 68]

Hey edinmass have you ever seen this before it’s in a 1914 touring guide I got today enjoy!

[edinmass]

That’s new to me……they are talking about the strange starter set up used in 1914. It’s a starter on a hinge that is operated from the dash………..big, heavy, and awkward. Seems to work ok……..

[Dandy Dave]

Info on the starter from the owners manual. Dandy Dave!

 

[edinmass]

Dave.....the chain set up is a bit later.......1914/5-1916........The earlier unit is a crazy set up with a hinge and linkage that swings the starter up against the flywheel.......only used a short time. My 1917 has a conventional starter set up. The chain and shaft unit is 18 volts...........

Edited March 21, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[LI_BENTLEY]

The early 18 V starter/ generator hung on a hinged plate on the left side of engine ran through a silent chain to a sprocket at the front of the mag and thru the timing gears.  Not a good method, later they ran the starter/ generator to a sprocket on the flywheel with the starter/ generator under the car.

[edinmass]

The blue 30 hp car I drove last week had the later style as you describe. Looked like they were trying to crank over the Titanic.

[Dandy Dave]

So much to learn about White Automobiles and Commercial Cars. Power Wagons as they were called before the word, "Truck" was common place. So little time to take it all in. Are we having fun yet? I know I am. 😁 Dandy Dave! 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[George K]

3 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

So much to learn about White Automobiles and Commercial Cars. Power Wagons as they were called before the word, "Truck" was common place. So little time to take it all in. Are we having fun yet? I know I am. 😁 Dandy Dave! 

Hold on there’s more.

[gossp]

On 3/21/2022 at 1:50 PM, edinmass said:

The blue 30 hp car I drove last week had the later style as you describe. Looked like they were trying to crank over the Titanic.

I just received a pic of you behind the wheel of that car… only thing I could really tell from the pic is that the guy behind you has a damned good looking son. 

[edinmass]

8 hours ago, gossp said:

I just received a pic of you behind the wheel of that car… only thing I could really tell from the pic is that the guy behind you has a damned good looking son. 

 

Put you glasses on!

[edinmass]

Interesting few days.......got to stick my fingers in a Lozier, a Simplex, and toss around a few other interesting parts on a PII, P1, and three silver ghosts. Also a handful of other ridiculously interesting toys........It’s always fun to visit true craftsman who lift the bar so high that one feels like a beginner in the hobby after fifty years. Getting a chance to look at an entire scratch built engine was truly a unique experience. Yes, this shop built an entire exotic engine working from the ruins of the original.......the entire thing was new.....except the crank........and I stood looking at it impressed and speechless.............there are still a few talented people left in the world.

Edited March 24, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

One of the rarest production models of Ford, is the 1904/'05 Model B Ford. A large, expensive car with a four cylinder engine. Less than 500 were built originally. And less than ten in any condition or completeness are believed to exist in the world today. Some with so little left that they are not really even a car. A few in permanent collections, and when Edward Towe, one of the largest collectors of Ford cars in the world wanted one? There were not many options. So he bought one of the most solid original model B Fords known to exist. Unfortunately, about two decades earlier, someone had begun a restoration of the car, and sent the engine out to be rebuilt. And the rebuilder lost it! Several owners over the next twenty years spent small fortunes advertising and searching for an engine. Trips to check out leads in Australia and Africa proved fruitless. So Edward Towe did what nobody else had been willing to do. He commissioned a new engine to be built. The original schematics were copied from Ford archives, all parts shown in detail and exact measurements. I knew the machinist that built that engine, and I got to see it in the car at the Towe Museum in Sacramento California. It was an incredible sight to behold! Every piece, patterns, castings, machining, in exacting detail. 

They are gone now. Edward Towe, who I did get to meet and talk with on a VMCCA nickel tour about seventeen years ago, and my friend, the machinist and artisan that built the engine from schematics.

Nice to hear there still are a few people of that skill level around.

[Dandy Dave]

There were several foundry's in this area years ago. An Iron foundry in The town I grew up in about 6 miles away. Another just a mile from here. They were gone before I was old enough to understand the importance of what they did. I would have been building and machining a lot more stuff if they were still in the area and operating. Also a brass and aluminum foundry just across the Hudson river and north a bit that I had some stuff cast at. The EPA, and overseas competition, put them out of business. Even the buildings are gone from that place. Sometimes I think of doing something on a small scale. But then again. Would the EPA come knocking on my door with threats and jail time for doing something for the hobby? A local scrap dealer had an aluminum smelter years ago to reduce the scrap aluminum that came in the yard. When someone told the EPA they came in and shut the smelting down with threats as listed above. It is no small wonder manufacturing in America is going, going...nearly gone. Dandy Dave!

[George K]

9 hours ago, edinmass said:

Interesting few days.......got to stick my fingers in a Lozier, a Simplex, and toss around a few other interesting parts on a PII, P1, and three silver ghosts. Also a handful of other ridiculously interesting toys........It’s always fun to visit true craftsman who lift the bar so high that one feels like a beginner in the hobby after fifty years. Getting a chance to look at an entire scratch built engine was truly a unique experience. Yes, this shop built an entire exotic engine working from the ruins of the original.......the entire thing was new.....except the crank........and I stood looking at it impressed and speechless.............there are still a few talented people left in the world.

You just experienced a paradigm shift. There is nothing new about that type of work happening. You entered a sphere where you got to breathe rare air.

[dibarlaw]

4 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

There were several foundry's in this area years ago. An Iron foundry in The town I grew up in about 6 miles away. Another just a mile from here. They were gone before I was old enough to understand the importance of what they did. I would have been building and machining a lot more stuff if they were still in the area and operating. Also a brass and aluminum foundry just across the Hudson river and north a bit that I had some stuff cast at. The EPA, and overseas competition, put them out of business. Even the buildings are gone from that place. Sometimes I think of doing something on a small scale. But then again. Would the EPA come knocking on my door with threats and jail time for doing something for the hobby? A local scrap dealer had an aluminum smelter years ago to reduce the scrap aluminum that came in the yard. When someone told the EPA they came in and shut the smelting down with threats as listed above. It is no small wonder manufacturing in America is going, going...nearly gone. Dandy Dave!

Dave:

 I am also regretting the loss of these industries. I know of several foundries in my area that are still functioning but under stricter more expensive to maintain EPA guidelines.

 I worked at Combustion Engineering East Monongahela PA. back in the 1970s. Mostly gray iron foundry pouring I believe up to 12-ton castings. We made components for COAL FIRED POWER PLANTS. Our last sales were for a group of plants in India since we could no longer build the plants in USA. Plant closed up by 1988. All their repair work went to England and Mexico.

[1912Staver]

Smaller part , home casting is very manageable as long as you are talking aluminum , brass and bronze. Iron and especially steel are much more difficult.

 If the aluminum part needs to be a specific alloy , and /or heat treated then probably a job for a commercial foundry.

A good friend who is heavily into pre 1920 motorcycles is getting set up for basic heat treatment. The main heat treat shop in our area is turning down small jobs these days.

It's sort of counter intuitive. The parts and  early  cars / trucks / motorcycles that the parts fit just keep getting more and more expensive. But fewer and fewer commercial outfits want to be involved with them. Seems like if you want less than a couple of thousand of a particular part , you will be on your own.

 Most of my working life I was involved with large marine machinery . Many one off jobs. You name it , hard chrome and grind back to size, very challenging crack repairs, obsolete part fabrication , obsolete castings re made , massive block castings repaired with shrunk in inserts. { very large sleeves shrunk into where 24 inch diameter, cylinder liners locate in the main block }  The local specialized shops were always up to any challenge.

I wonder what has happened over the last 5 years or so ?

Edited March 24, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

19 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Smaller part , home casting is very manageable as long as you are talking aluminum , brass and bronze. Iron and especially steel are much more difficult.

 If the aluminum part needs to be a specific alloy , and /or heat treated then probably a job for a commercial foundry.

A good friend who is heavily into pre 1920 motorcycles is getting set up for basic heat treatment. The main heat treat shop in our area is turning down small jobs these days.

It's sort of counter intuitive. The parts and  early  cars / trucks / motorcycles that the parts fit just keep getting more and more expensive. But fewer and fewer commercial outfits want to be involved with them. Seems like if you want less than a couple of thousand of a particular part , you will be on your own.

 Most of my working life I was involved with large marine machinery . Many one off jobs. You name it , hard chrome and grind back to size, very challenging crack repairs, obsolete part fabrication , obsolete castings re made , massive block castings repaired with shrunk in inserts. { very large sleeves shrunk into where 24 inch diameter, cylinder liners locate in the main block }  The local specialized shops were always up to any challenge.

I wonder what has happened over the last 5 years or so ?

Less get up and get er done doers, and more sit around and push buttons on a smart phone. And then the Green thing. And it's not all that green in the long run. That's what happened. Dandy Dave!

[edinmass]

Slow but steady progress in the 15 White. More tires apart. Had to fix a Nash on an emergency basis this week, and that put us way behind on our own toys............have a small 851 SC speedster project for a few days next week.....then Phil and I will be back to a more regular schedule on the White’s and Stearns.........some tire photos. They kicked our ass........

Edited March 25, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

The rims, bands, rings etc . are all normally some sort of dull zinc plating aren't they ? Are you thinking of getting that re- done ? That black paint can't help when dis- mounting and re -mounting tires.

[LI_BENTLEY]

Rims and wheel hardware were cadmium plated when new.  Good luck in getting that done today.

[Trulyvintage]

On 3/23/2022 at 11:18 PM, wayne sheldon said:

One of the rarest production models of Ford, is the 1904/'05 Model B Ford. A large, expensive car with a four cylinder engine. Less than 500 were built originally. And less than ten in any condition or completeness are believed to exist in the world today. Some with so little left that they are not really even a car. A few in permanent collections, and when Edward Towe, one of the largest collectors of Ford cars in the world wanted one? There were not many options. So he bought one of the most solid original model B Fords known to exist. Unfortunately, about two decades earlier, someone had begun a restoration of the car, and sent the engine out to be rebuilt. And the rebuilder lost it! Several owners over the next twenty years spent small fortunes advertising and searching for an engine. Trips to check out leads in Australia and Africa proved fruitless. So Edward Towe did what nobody else had been willing to do. He commissioned a new engine to be built. The original schematics were copied from Ford archives, all parts shown in detail and exact measurements. I knew the machinist that built that engine, and I got to see it in the car at the Towe Museum in Sacramento California. It was an incredible sight to behold! Every piece, patterns, castings, machining, in exacting detail. 

They are gone now. Edward Towe, who I did get to meet and talk with on a VMCCA nickel tour about seventeen years ago, and my friend, the machinist and artisan that built the engine from schematics.

Nice to hear there still are a few people of that skill level around.

Are you talking about Wayland in Oregon ?

 

Because he is the only one living  that has built a running 1904/1905 Ford Model B engine.

 

Wayland did that to be able to buy the

only largely original 1904/1905 Ford

Model B known to exist as it rolled out

of Piquette from Margaret Ralston

after Cecil Ralston died.

 

The engine that Wayland built was 

Installed into the “ Ralston Model B “

by Jack Grace but never hooked up.

 

The “ Ralston Model B “ was passed

to Rex Ralston by Margaret Ralston.

 

Margaret Ralston has also passed.

 

Rex Ralston contacted John Grace 

In Michigan to get the car running.

 

The car was brought to Jerry

outside of Detroit who got 

Wayland’s engine running 

and got the car moving.

 

I saw the car in Jerry’s shop.

 

I heard Rob Heyen bought

Wayland’s 1904/1905 Ford Model B.

 

I heard he tried to cross the border 

into Canada with it but didn’t 

have the Covid-19 test results 

necessary and was turned back.

 

 

Jim

[Trulyvintage]

Ed 👋

 

Had a good talk with Ken yesterday.

He made it back safely to Wisconsin.

 

Ken is taking a month or so to travel

Ireland in June by rental car with his

girlfriend from Canada who is a 

Flight Attendant ✈️
 

He looked into renting a car

but most car rental agencies

won’t rent to anyone older

than 75 …. 🚗

 

Ken found a German Car Rental

company that has no age limit.

 

They broke the mold 

with Ken …. 👍

 

 

Jim

[wayne sheldon]

1 hour ago, Trulyvintage said:

Are you talking about Wayland in Oregon ?

 

Because he is the only one living  that has built a running 1904/1905 Ford Model B engine.

 

No. 

When was the Wayland engine built? Past discussions that I have read have been unclear on that point, and indications are that there may have been two engines built at different times. The fellow that built the one I saw passed away some years back.

[Trulyvintage]

2 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

No. 

When was the Wayland engine built? Past discussions that I have read have been unclear on that point, and indications are that there may have been two engines built at different times. The fellow that built the one I saw passed away some years back.

“ Past Discussions “ that I have authored 

have been based on my personal 

firsthand involvement over the past

few years starting with the discovery 

and effort to have Wayland release the 

1904/1905 Ford Model B to be transported 

free by me to Kim Dobbins in Southern

California to be brought back to running

condition and then transported free by me

to a Midwest Museum that I facilitated

public display for the vehicle and insurance

for around 18 months until it was sold.

 

If you are referencing the Towe Model B

that engine was created by the Eugene

Kristofi ? ( last name might be spelled 

wrong ) who did not allow for proper 

clearances in casting engine parts.

 

The engine he created may look

spiffy - but has never  actually ran

or ran properly from 

what I have researched.

 

Ironically- he also built a transmission

for the “ Ralston Model B “ which

was discovered after I encouraged 

the research of his records that were 

donated to The Early Ford Registry.

 

He charged Cecil Ralston $3000

and the transmission had issues 

when Jerry in Michigan got the

” Ralston Model B “ running.

 

All of the 1904/1905 Ford Model B

examples know to exist are

“ made cars “ that do not run 

and drive other than Wayland’s

car that he sold to Rob Heyen 

and the “ Ralston Model B “

that Wayland made the engine for.

 

Jim

 

 

[wayne sheldon]

I have thoroughly enjoyed your many postings about cars like this that you have transported. What you, Kim Dobbins, and several other people did to get this one model B out from the shadows and back into running condition IS what this hobby is about! I followed your many updates on the progress, and even talked with Kim a couple times while he was working on it. You, he, and the others should all be commended for getting this car out to where it can be seen and heard.

 

I had also heard that Rob H was considering buying the car, but I had NOT heard that he did get it! He should be a fine caretaker for such a special automobile! He is quite dedicated to early Fords and early Ford history, and an incredible researcher! I hope that you, Kim, Rob, and all the others are pleased and properly proud of what you all accomplished!

 

Now, how about back to the White! Also an incredible story still unfolding?

 

And I always look forward to reading your threads, posts, and comments.

Edited March 26, 2022 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)