Is the antique automobile hobby ready for the coming switchover to electric cars, etc.

[rocketraider]

2 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

I made some comment on Facebook and everyone chimed in that Electric cars have a zero footprint in their production and I was full of _ _ _ _.  Apparently, electricity comes out of outlets too with a zero footprint.  Then, they started in on China being the worst offender - I could not help it and chimed back that the only reason why China is the worst offender is because they wanted them to be via outsourcing manufacturing and driving down profit to a level where there is no other choice than to have environmentally unfriendly manufacturing processes - I am sure they cannot see that either. 

This kinda-sorta validates my tongue-in-cheek post on another topic, where I said greenies think electricity is made by elves in hollow trees like Keebler cookies. I got excoriated over that post, but the sad truth is a lot of people have no idea how their electricity is produced, they only know when it's not working and their electricity-dependent modern lives come to a screeching halt.

 

I can only imagine how the additional load of car chargers will affect the country's electric grid. Plenty of areas the grid is sorely taxed now. Yet those are the same areas experiencing population booms.

 

To have the convenience you have to have the infrastructure. Shame Mr Tesla's Wardenclyffe experiments didn't pan out.

[John_Mereness]

1 minute ago, rocketraider said:

This kinda-sorta validates my tongue-in-cheek post on another topic, where I said greenies think electricity is made by elves in hollow trees like Keebler cookies. I got excoriated over that post, but the sad truth is a lot of people have no idea how their electricity is produced, they only know when it's not working and their electricity-dependent modern lives come to a screeching halt.

 

I can only imagine how the additional load of car chargers will affect the country's electric grid. Plenty of areas the grid is sorely taxed now. Yet those are the same areas experiencing population booms.

 

To have the convenience you have to have the infrastructure. Shame Mr Tesla's Wardenclyffe experiments didn't pan out.

I have worked as an attorney for an electric company - my main role was with a positive pressure coal plant that supplied commercial power for several states - there was not much environmentally friendly and not much people friendly too it either.  At least once a week there was an explosion somewhere in the plant - that was fun to say the least - do not stand up from your desk when it happens as the fire ball rolls across the ceiling.   And, there was the spills, the sludge pit, the filthy air, and ....  Oh yeah, periodical someone just kind of melted away too or at best was just never going to be anywhere close to the same again.  Correct, elves do not make power in hollow trees like Keebler cookies. 

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, Pfeil said:

You're brother in law must have a very small all electric car.

A NISSAN all electric LEAF battery pack replacement is $5,500 not counting labor

A all electric TESLA M3 is about $ 5-7K not counting labor

 

A Prius Hybrid battery pack is $2200-4100 not counting labor, and don't forget they have a gas engine to also maintain and emission test.

A NISSAN Altima Hybrid is $3800-4000 not counting labor, and they have a gas engine to maintain and emission testing.

You have to ask when you buy - they do not really tell you this on the window sticker.  Also, last I heard you could put the bill on your credit cars as the service was not financed in any way. 

[joe_padavano]

5 hours ago, charlier said:

 

I sure hope all of the 1000s and 1000s of young enthusiasts I have seen over the years do have their driver's licenses then.

 

I appreciate your anecdotal evidence to your support opinion.

 

Likewise with your anecdotal 1000s and 1000s. Or did that come from Facebook too? 😆

[rocketraider]

Back to getting young people interested: plenty of young friends tell me they'd love to have an old American car to play with and love, but...

 

They can't afford one because older guys and especially investors have driven prices out of reason and the auctions have made that worse.

 

So they ARE interested and paying attention.

 

An Oldsmobile forum I'm on had an interesting post a couple days back. A fellow in WNY had taken his 68 442 out for some exercise and ran up on friends who were having their teenage son's senior portraits made. The photographer had a lightbulb go off and took a series of portraits of the boy posed with the 442. The kid was very pleased with that idea.

 

So there's another way you can reach out to young people. Find a photographer who does senior portraits and offer use of your car as a background. I would about bet kids would go for it and might even decide they want their own old car someday.

[charlier]

51 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Likewise with your anecdotal 1000s and 1000s. Or did that come from Facebook too? 😆

 

Sorry not from Facebook, Twitter, Wikipedia or any other of those oftentimes questionable sources for Accurate, Factual and most of all Truthful information.

 

The 1000s and 1000s come from personally helping run, judging and attending VW events for close to 25 years now and seeing the cars and their drivers in person. So I guess you could say it is anecdotal. I do however have a few very large computer hard drives with photos from these events and well as other storage media before I bought the hard drives. Some might call that anecdotal as well unless one wants to take the time to look at all those photos. 😁

 

 

[padgett]

Never had any driver training, just one resort in the Bahamas where I fixed outboards in the summer had a Jeep MB and a 41 Ford they let me "borrow" (Jeep had one of the shortest throw shifters I've ever seen). Guy at the DMV asked where I learned to shift since never had a learner's permit so just told him "in the Bahamas".

 

" battery powered golf car for sale "needs batteries". Good friend is buying up good testing Lithium (not NIMH) 48v battery packs (think about $200) and putting them in Golf Carts - very fast and go for a long time. Popular here particularly in the senior developments with golf courses since no license required.

[ply33]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

" battery powered golf car for sale "needs batteries". Good friend is buying up good testing Lithium (not NIMH) 48v battery packs (think about $200) and putting them in Golf Carts - very fast and go for a long time. Popular here particularly in the senior developments with golf courses since no license required.

 

I wonder if people will start doing that for antique electric cars like a Baker or Detroit Electric too. It is my understanding that that type of vehicle originally shipped with Edison batteries which are not available so people have been putting lead-acid batteries in them just to be able to drive them. If what I read is correct the Edison battery chemistry used a nickel and metal electrodes with a caustic electrolyte. I am not a chemist, but that sounds like an early version of a NIMH battery. Putting a new technology Lithium battery into those cars seems like it would be an improvement over lead acid and not really any less authentic.

[rocketraider]

Went out for dinner tonite and on the way back passed a shopping center parking lot that had 20+ trucks and cars with teenagers and early-20s milling around. Most modified (I will never understand what these kids call a "Carolina Squat" on pickups) but these were well-cared-for vehicles and a friendly crowd who didn't mind talking to an old car guy in a Grand Marquis. One even asked if it was a Marauder, so they do know a little about cars! These kids said the same thing- they could find a several-years-old pickup, Honda, Mustang, Camaro etc cheap enough and fix it to their taste, but ppl with old cars would price the cars out of reach and talk down to them.

 

And I well remember how bad it used to piss me off to be talked down to.😡

[Pfeil]

6 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

You have to ask when you buy - they do not really tell you this on the window sticker.  Also, last I heard you could put the bill on your credit cars as the service was not financed in any way. 

I wouldn't expect them to, just as I wouldn't expect someone to post the life expectancy of a internal combustion engine or a components or accessories of that engine. 

[padgett]

Key for me is to buy oddball cars with drivetrains that were used in the millions.

[8E45E]

On 9/25/2020 at 6:41 AM, joe_padavano said:

Did ANYONE here wait to get their license? We were at the DMV on the day after our birthdays. Sorry, I stand by my statement.

Not me! I could hardly wait to reach that milestone in my life!!

 

Craig

Edited September 28, 2020 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[AL1630]

I know there are kids out there that like old cars. After all, I'm 17 and drive a Rambler. I've met a few others at car shows and online as well. That being said, I only know of a couple other people in my school that have any interest at all in cars made before the 1980s. I was at the DMV to get a learner's permit on my 14 1/2 birthday, the earliest you can get one here.

 

The biggest problems with getting kids involved, in my opinion, are: 

Just a plain lack of interest (Not sure what you can do about this one)

- Why shoot for a V8 that gets low MPGs or a low HP straight 6 when you can dream about having a supercar or electric car that does 0-60 in less than 3 seconds?

 

Lack of available cars in the area

-Locally, many cars are prohibitively expensive for someone who just wants to get started. Even a rusted out major project costs a lot just to get the car. Occasionally an affordable car that runs and drives comes up, but these are somewhat rare.

 

Little support/help on fixing things or getting the right tools.

-This is related to the first problem of low interest. If there are few young people interested in old cars, the only place to go for help is online forums like this one or an older family member/friend/neighbor who likes cars. I'm lucky, one of my neighbors has several antique cars and has helped my Dad and I if we hit an issue we can't figure out ourselves. I've also helped him out on his Model T and A, which has made me more interested in getting a prewar car someday. This one is key, because without some kind of support, young people can't be successful at keeping their cars on the road.

 

If you know any young people that have shown any interest at all in antique cars, try to get them involved! Offer to take them for a ride or ask if they want to help next time you have maintenance or body work to do on your car. It gives them a chance to see what's involved, and if they find it fun chances are they'll want a car of their own to work on someday. Maybe they would even be interested in working at a restoration shop.

 

My guess is that while fewer people may be in the hobby in the coming years, those of us who are interested will be very dedicated and will do our best to make sure we can keep these cars on the road for as long as possible.

[TerryB]

Very well stated Mr AL.  Always great to hear from young people directly and your points are well stated.  My first car was a 1951 Pontiac I got in 1970.  Even though it was 19 model years old at that time it looked much older than that as the auto design had really progressed during that span of time.  Parts were still available but were somewhat hard to find as it was just another old car and not really antique.  Today a 19 yr old car is a 2001 and not significantly different from a new car.  We sometimes loose site of that in our discussions here. All the best to you as you go down the road of life!

[John_Mereness]

14 hours ago, Pfeil said:

I wouldn't expect them to, just as I wouldn't expect someone to post the life expectancy of a internal combustion engine or a components or accessories of that engine. 

I guess, but a battery pack for an electric car costs a "little more" than the normal $200 battery and has little to no more life span - sort of falls back into the category of walking around with blinders on.  

 

So, in 2000, I went and looked at ordering a BMW M Convertible and I asked about the warranty and maintenance plan as I had heard the warranties were very limited and the maintenance high - the dealer hemmed and hawed and then said the warranty was not really very good on an M and there were two maintenance plans as most people were financially strapped doing the recommended service - the cost of the basic plan was like $3,500 over the year and the cost of doing he recommended service was about $7,500 a year - no, I am not going to pay $7,500 a year to maintain a 50K car.   The next year they changed the warranty as sales were so poor, but cars were still living at the dealerships more than their owner's garages, so ... 

[padgett]

Not really concerned about electrics, once you turn on the AC or heat, the range really drops (like about 30%). That said this century all of the cars I've bought (other than the Monza) came from Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace, same place the Roadkill group buys theirs except I inspect each first.

 

In general, unless you are looking for a #1 or #2 car and are willing to pay for it, marque forums are not a good place to buy a car. Great place to learn how to fix once you have it though.

[rocketraider]

John, that is why no one but a franchised BMW dealer will warrantee a used BMW. Even then it's a ridiculously short time and mileage. In that price range one would expect a better quality car. Mercedes don't have the issues BMW do. 

 

I worked with a guy who was a BMW loyalist. He and his wife both had them including a BMW motorcycle. The damn things were at the dealer constantly, which really became a problem when the local dealer closed and the nearest one was 60 miles away. The price you pay for exclusivity.

[Str8-8-Dave]

23 hours ago, rocketraider said:

I can only imagine how the additional load of car chargers will affect the country's electric grid. Plenty of areas the grid is sorely taxed now. Yet those are the same areas experiencing population booms.

Infrastructure-infrastructure-infrastructure.  In Michigan, where there's lotsa wind and some solar energy development more and more stuff is being offloaded from the DTE conventional electrical grid.  If you drive west on I-69 from Port Huron you will pass a DTE solar project at Lapeer which provides enough power for 11,000 homes.  Michigan isn't exactly a sunbelt state, many other states in the US could produce a lot more solar energy than Michigan does.  Alaska won't have much problem with wind energy. 

 

All tolled DTE Michigan renewable energy consisting of solar, wind and biomass makes 1414 megawatts of power without burning coal or natural gas.  Exchange charging stations make practical sense, pay a lease fee, drive into a charging station, swap exhausted battery pack for a fresh charged unit and drive away.  The battery can then be recharged on-site via solar or wind, then traded to the next user.  My point is when a charging station is commissioned there should be a requirement for the chargers to run on renewable energy.  It may be practical to charge batteries in the vehicle at home with solar or wind in many areas of the country.  

 

https://newlook.dteenergy.com/wps/wcm/connect/dte-web/home/community-and-news/common/renewable-energy/solar-energy

[Matt Harwood]

I think our electric car infrastructure is in that place where maybe the automobile was in 1915 or 1920 or so--cars were here to stay, horses were still around, roads were dirt and mud, and there wasn't a filling station on every corner. You got your gas from the general store or even direct from the refiner if you lived in PA or Texas. Long-distance road trips were obviously not a thing and the roads themselves were primitive.

 

Nevertheless, demand was there and multiple new industries popped up to support the automobile and transportation in general. The people wanted better access to travel so the government invested in roads and highways and other infrastructure. Private business found ways to make money around the automobile. And everyone's life got better.

 

Why does anyone think that can't or won't happen now? It's no different than 100 years ago when we were figuring out how to "fill up" our transportation rather than feed it. We'll figure out how to make the electricity for electric cars because there will be money to be made doing it and a general will of the public to make it happen. There won't be one complete solution, but a bunch of regional ones that suite each area--solar will obviously be more viable down south and out west than in Maine, wind power will be more useful along the coasts, and you find hydro-electric power where the rivers are. In-between there will be lots of other solutions that fit each reigion. Natural gas will still power a lot of generating stations for the foreseeable future, and that's not a bad mid-way step. Coal is falling out of favor not just because it's dirty--it's not really cheaper than natural gas because we've gotten so good at getting gas out of the ground.

 

There are answers but there is no SINGLE answer, which seems to be what everyone wants and expects (and what detractors say isn't forthcoming and therefore why bother?). The key is to be open to change, because it's coming no matter what.

[Matt Harwood]

2 hours ago, rocketraider said:

John, that is why no one but a franchised BMW dealer will warrantee a used BMW. Even then it's a ridiculously short time and mileage. In that price range one would expect a better quality car. Mercedes don't have the issues BMW do. 

 

I worked with a guy who was a BMW loyalist. He and his wife both had them including a BMW motorcycle. The damn things were at the dealer constantly, which really became a problem when the local dealer closed and the nearest one was 60 miles away. The price you pay for exclusivity.

 

Same thing with a friend of mine who is a BMW dealer--he won't take in any BMW on trade that isn't still covered by the factory warranty. The cars are just too expensive to fix once someone other than the factory has to foot the bill, including the dealership. That strikes me as a very bad way to build a car, but since most of them are leased and dumped on secondary markets via auction, who cares? Cheap to buy, expensive to own, but the guy with dreams of being a player with his new [cheap] BMW doesn't ever stop to think about how much a brake job is going to cost...

 

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

2 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I think our electric car infrastructure is in that place where maybe the automobile was in 1915 or 1920 or so--cars were here to stay, horses were still around, roads were dirt and mud, and there wasn't a filling station on every corner. You got your gas from the general store or even direct from the refiner if you lived in PA or Texas. Long-distance road trips were obviously not a thing and the roads themselves were primitive.

 

Nevertheless, demand was there and multiple new industries popped up to support the automobile and transportation in general. The people wanted better access to travel so the government invested in roads and highways and other infrastructure. Private business found ways to make money around the automobile. And everyone's life got better.

 

Why does anyone think that can't or won't happen now? It's no different than 100 years ago when we were figuring out how to "fill up" our transportation rather than feed it. We'll figure out how to make the electricity for electric cars because there will be money to be made doing it and a general will of the public to make it happen. There won't be one complete solution, but a bunch of regional ones that suite each area--solar will obviously be more viable down south and out west than in Maine, wind power will be more useful along the coasts, and you find hydro-electric power where the rivers are. In-between there will be lots of other solutions that fit each reigion. Natural gas will still power a lot of generating stations for the foreseeable future, and that's not a bad mid-way step. Coal is falling out of favor not just because it's dirty--it's not really cheaper than natural gas because we've gotten so good at getting gas out of the ground.

 

There are answers but there is no SINGLE answer, which seems to be what everyone wants and expects (and what detractors say isn't forthcoming and therefore why bother?). The key is to be open to change, because it's coming no matter what.

Matt, it will happen and the naysayers can watch this one and if they bet money they will loose the bet.  And, governors will probably have to scream loud to get a little of what they are screaming about heard.   It is not about the cars solely though as they are only a piece of the puzzle - it is about planes, trains, automobiles, trucks, buses, water, coal, natural gases (and how materials fit into the scheme of things with power plants), and etc. - it has to do with basically every piece of the economy and every piece of ecology too. 

 

Back to the Facebook posts about China being a huge polluter - well, the United States is largely causing that as we want to pay little for pretty much everything.   

 

By the way, the resistance seems only to be bringing on a more quick demise - ie. if everyone works toward the goad then they are working toward it and if everyone ignores the goal the people will be screaming. 

[John_Mereness]

I worked for a litigator once  who had a favorite expression "watch the natives  - they have sharp pointy sticks"

[SC38dls]

I still say the answer or this question “ Is the antique automobile hobby ready for the coming switchover to electric cars, etc” is simply no. 
 

[rocketraider]

Local municipal electric supplier (who has 2nd highest rates in the state due to horrendously bad supplier deals made nearly 20 years ago) set up FREE electric car charging stations at a community market site downtown. I didn't like the idea of my light bill subsidizing someone's driving, esp when that individual had already gotten a tax break on the vehicle's purchase. So I pinned the utility director's ears back until he proved to me that the charging stations were 100% powered by solar panels on the adjacent community market building. I'm good with that.

 

In yesterday's Richmond paper an owner of a newly purchased hybrid was screaming blue murder because DMV had assessed a highway use fee on his car registration. It was put in place to offset fuel tax loss by electrics and hybrids. Guess the purchase tax break wasn't enough and he now thinks he shouldn't contribute to road upkeep.

 

Like most states, if we could keep the legislature's fingers out of the transportation fund our roads would be in very good shape, esp after the gas tax nearly doubled July 1.

[TerryB]

On a different note, I see interest in preserving/ restoring older electric vehicles gaining popularity as today’s EVs get the spotlight.  There were many variations of EVs, starting at the beginning of the 20th century and a lot of tries to make it work mostly from a gas savings plan and less on environment.  The environment interest seemed to get more notice beginning in the 1970s when the gas availability and fuel economy Issues were in the spotlight.  When you look around there were many attempts to get a product to market but all were limited by battery weight and range.  Retrofitting them with 21st century technology could be a way to preserve the early attempts, in the spirit of restoring an antique and telling a historical chapter in transportation.  For example here is an electric Chevy S10 that fits this story. 

 

 

[padgett]

and is wedged in, at least all of mine can be on the road by driving out a door.

 

Also by regulation my residential roof is rated at 130mph (150 mph about 30 miles further east). Wonder how many wind and solar systems can stand that.

[TerryB]

Some electric AMC Gremlin autos were made (converted to electric) in the 1970s.  
 

[Pfeil]

[Fossil]

6 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

The cars are just too expensive to fix once someone other than the factory has to foot the bill, including the dealership.

I think if you check BMW's are one of the fastest depreciating cars on the market.  This might have something to do with that. 

[padgett]

"fastest depreciating cars" paid about 1/4 MSRP for my CTS coupe in '18. KBB private party value today is more than I paid for it. Of course like most of my cars, the drivetrain/accessories were used in hundreds of thousands of others.

[TerryB]

In the late 1950s a US company converted Renault Dauphine autos to electric power.  In an era of excess and bigger is better it was not a sales success.

 

[padgett]

I once had a Caravelle for a few months but lost it somewhere in the Carolinas. No big since had a cracked block and paid $75 for it. May still have the title. Should have electrifried it.

[Str8-8-Dave]

I stepped away from this thread because I felt a little guilty for straying pretty far from the original intent of the thread which I interpret to be will our hobby die when cars are no longer powered by the IC engine and run on fossil fuel.  There are 2 forces at work that will probably force some changes to the hobby, a paradigm shift to carbon free power in the transportation industry and a demographics shift to younger generations that are less interested in the cars the AACA has historically embraced.  Other organizations have had to adapt as well.  Another organization I participated in was the Antique Classic Boat Society (ACBS) which WAS, almost exclusively, A WOOD BOAT CLUB with little or no tolerance for fiberglass.  The paradigm shift had already occurred, fiberglass was in universal use with very few new boats built of wood.  The demographic shift that was underway meant there was less and less interest in wood boats and fiberglass boats the younger generation grew up with and cherished were already 25-35 years old.  I happened to restore a 1965 Chris Craft 20ft Sea Skiff which was hull #12 of 60 fiberglass Chris Craft Sea Skiffs within a a population of about 13,000 Sea Skiffs built starting in 1956.   These early fiberglass Sea Skiff boats were built in a Thompson Boat plant in Cortland NY that had already made the transition from wood to fiberglass a couple of years before Chris Craft acquired Thompson boat operations.  This was a low investment way for Chris Craft to get their feet wet in fiberglass boat manufacturing which they embraced shortly thereafter for all of their boats.  ACBS leadership had the same painful discussion AACA is having at some level here.   I was also a member of the Chris Craft Commanders boat club and got great  support from that organization in my effort to do an authentic restoration of a boat that had good bones but had been modified to a point that it lost it's authenticity.  That ACBS and Commanders support is another parallel to my experience with BCA and AACA where I have experienced great support in my effort to restore my 31 Buick 8-66S.  

 

Part of the effort ACBS went to in regards to keep the younger generation of boaters was to revise their definition of "antique" and "classic" by expanding it to fiberglass boats, particularly boats that were 25yrs old or older.  When it came time for me to sell my boat the buyer turned out to be Brian Gagnon who was commodore of ACBS.  He drove from NJ to pick my boat up in Michigan and just a couple of days after he took the boat to the in-the-water ACBS boat show at Skaneateles NY.  There is an article in Woody Boater about the skiff's debut here...

 

https://www.woodyboater.com/blog/2014/09/26/12-makes-statement-skaneateles-ny/

 

Bottom line of my rant her is maybe AACA is not quite ready to accommodate future generations of collectors who know nothing about the cars we are collecting today but it is possible for the club to continue to appeal to old geezers like me and at the same time expand horizons to include future enthusiasts from the electric car era.      

 

Best regards

Dave

 

[Pfeil]

Two things that I would like to point out is when these newer electric cars become 25 years old will be eligible for AACA which will be great for the inclusion into the antique hobby.

 Unlike the boat industries change to fiberglass, just as in the surfboard industry change from wood and varnish, to wood and fiberglass and resin, and finally foam to fiberglass with resin, there was no push by government to do so. The automotive scene is a lot different in that sense. The auto manufacturer I worked for was not asked but was told "will" make electric vehicles for evaluation purposes. Later it was decided to make vehicles for the public. So what I'm saying is the automotive switch is not exactly driven by technology / invention, but also by government intervention into our products. The same hold true in the exhaust regulations of IC vehicles.

[padgett]

It is a lot like we have two different clubs here: the "General Discussion" which perhaps should be renamed "No modifications" and the marque forums who are mainly interested in keeping the cars on the road which (to me) is closer to the originators' vision.

 

My vision is "replacement parts are good (but keep the originals in big labeled baggies)". Also most of us are under much different environments ranging from Florida (cheap gas, no rust, no inspections but damaged paint and interiors) to Califunny which is different in every way (even see a lot of rust on reality shows).

 

One impression is that there are some who do not believe in detergent oil, ethanol (gas line antifreeze) in gas, or replacing R12 with R134a. I have no problem with replacables. Everything is replacable.

 

That said I suspect my Allante is going to wind up with some Reatta parts (but would require disassembly to tell). Other than Joe, how many can tell the difference between a F7 and a 4T60 ?

 

Is kind of an overcast, windy day but nice and cool. After cancelling my 1 5/16 socket because delayed, now am notified that the 34mm replacement (guaranteed next day delivery) is also delayed (left Davenport, 30 miles away at 4 am and at 2 pm has been declared "delayed' so at least it is close...) which means I have a choice, leave the Judge up on the lift so the CTS sits out for another day or remove the whole gearbox again to remove the pitman arm nut so I can swap for the shorter arm. At least my new creeper with a raised back is here...

 

Consequently have lotsa time for forums.

[charlier]

Since this discussion asks the question "Is the antique automobile hobby ready for the coming switchover to electric cars, etc."

this begs the question:

 

Will the new home of the AACA that is currently being built have an Electric Charging Station for electric vehicles that visit the new building???  Maybe this ability will be added sometime in the not too distant future after a sponsor be found to make it more economically feasible.

 

Yes I know there is another building in the area that has a charging station for electric vehicles. 

 

 

 

 

[MCHinson]

I don't recall what the original title of this discussion was, but since Peter changed it to what it is now... I will only point out that a small number of electric cars have already been on AACA Showfields. We even had an electric car on display at the Annual Convention this year. The club is ready. As more electric cars achieve an age of 25 years, more will be shown in AACA competition and will eventually find their way onto AACA tours. The club is ready. The electric cars just need to become a larger part of the car market and you will see more of them at AACA events. When the club adopted the 25 year rule, it became prepared for any cars that are to come in the future. The "inevitable" impending death of the hobby has been prognosticated about for decades. To paraphrase, the news of the hobby's death have been vastly overstated. 

[John348]

7 hours ago, charlier said:

Since this discussion asks the question "Is the antique automobile hobby ready for the coming switchover to electric cars, etc."

this begs the question:

 

Will the new home of the AACA that is currently being built have an Electric Charging Station for electric vehicles that visit the new building???  Maybe this ability will be added sometime in the not too distant future after a sponsor be found to make it more economically feasible.

 

Yes I know there is another building in the area that has a charging station for electric vehicles. 

 

 

 

 

 

It is code on NEW buildings with parking areas {over a certain number of spaces) to include charging stations, I don't know about existing buildings if it is a requirement on a renovation. It is considered adequate wiring.   

[rocketraider]

Is that NEC nationwide or a local thing, John?

 

The question begs "who's paying at the charging station?" Will it be a complimentary service by the building owner/tenant? By the local electric provider? Metered as in x amount of charging time for x amount of money? It's gonna cost someone and my think is that the end user should pay for his fuel same as those of us buying our dino juice.

[ply33]

1 hour ago, rocketraider said:

Is that NEC nationwide or a local thing, John?

 

The question begs "who's paying at the charging station?" Will it be a complimentary service by the building owner/tenant? By the local electric provider? Metered as in x amount of charging time for x amount of money? It's gonna cost someone and my think is that the end user should pay for his fuel same as those of us buying our dino juice.

 

About 10 years ago in Silicon Valley there were a number of municipal charging stations installed that were “free”. Put in to encourage people to buy EVs. I believe they are mostly gone now. There were also some installed in employee parking lots at some high tech companies as a benefit for employees. I don't know the current status of those.

 

Where I am now, all the public charging stations are paid. In many cases the car manufacturer will set you up an account with “free charging” in one of the systems of charging networks, sometimes for a limited introductory period, included in the purchase price or lease cost. But basically you are paying, either directly or indirectly, for the electricity you get at a public charging station.

 

I’ve seen ads for companies that will setup a charging station in the parking area for your business. Looks like the business plan is to split the income from the charging station with the business and the company installing the station. I suspect that this is how many/most venues that are required to put in a charging station will go. They don’t have to hassle with the installation and/or maintenance and they might get a little money from it.

 

I’ve seen at least one company promoting a setup what uses solar panels on a canopy and storage batteries so it doesn’t even need to be connected to the electrical grid. Pour some foundations, bolt everything in place and as long as there is cellular connectivity for the billing to work you are done (ignoring such niceties as permits, local government fees, etc.).

 

In the case of my plug-in hybrid, the cost of charging my car at a public charging station works out be higher per mile than buying gasoline. So I only charge the car at home. And even then only during “super off peak” hours when the cost works out to being about half the local cost of gasoline on a per mile basis.

 

I suspect that many other plug-in hybrid and full EV owners have figure that out too and mostly charge at home. Which is why I almost never see a car at a public charging station. It makes so much more financial sense to charge the car at home. And more convenient too: Just pop the cable onto the car when you get home and the car is “full” next time you head out the door.

 

I see a few of flaws in the current setup that I expect will disappear over time.

• You can’t just go to the closest public charger and use a generic credit card or cash, an account with that specific company is needed. This is much less convenient that getting gas where every station will accept any credit or debit card or even cash.
• At current charging station prices, it only really makes sense to use them on a road trip. I don’t see a need or demand for having a commercial charging station on each corner. Or even one in each small town. It makes more sense to put them along long distance routes and have them paired with a decent restaurant: When you stop for lunch on a road trip you simultaneously get your car charged. I guess it makes some sense for other venues, like museums, where you are likely to be occupied for a while anyway and so don’t mind a 20 or 30 minute wait to get your 80% fast charge completed.
• Because of the above mentioned high price of commercial charging stations, EV ownership makes a lot less sense for renters who don’t, in general, have access to charging while at home. This cuts out a huge part of the potential market for  EVs and even plug-in hybrids. You need to be wealthy enough to own a house to make use of the lower costs of at home charging.
• With respect to paying for highway maintenance, a good scheme hasn’t been worked out yet. If everyone had to go to a commercial charging station then that could taxed like highway fuels are. But it is much harder to tax part of a homeowner’s electric bill for the portion that is related to highway usage. Currently a number of states are adding a fixed fee to the yearly registration of EVs and plug-in hybrids to try to compensate. Having it based on miles driven rather than a fixed fee would be more equitable. However determining miles driven without violating the privacy of the vehicle owner hasn’t been worked out either.