nick8086 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Who owns the car? If you have the frame with the correct numbers. The other guy has the tags. and the body.. Who has the car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 I think there are two or three pairs of Ford GT40s that share chassis numbers. One was wrecked and later rebuilt, with a second car later being created from leftover parts once the cars became valuable enough to justify creating one from scratch. I seem to recall that in these cases, both cars are considered legitimate although they don't carry the same pedigree or value of a car with no asterisks on it. Nevertheless, they're seven-figure cars. I don't know how titling and VINs are handled by the authorities in these cases, but now that all the DMV computers are talking to each other, I worry that the owners of these cars are going to run into some problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick8086 Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 I think the car frame would win.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 GT40s didn't have frames. They had composite tubs with metal suspension pieces bolted on. One guy had the tub, another guy had the suspension. Both built cars. I don't know if experts consider one car more "real" than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 More information is needed. Among my first question would be what do you mean by "tags and the body" It may also depend on the dates on the vehicle titles that both owners would have to attempt to prove ownership. I am assuming by Who "has" the car, you are asking who owns the car with that frame serial number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Quote If you are talking about Vintage Race Cars the Frame is needed to get an AACA Race Car Certification. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Smolinski Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 In Minnesota the frame stamp is the legal VIN for a vehicle. So buying a car that has been "rebodied" or with a VIN tag not original to the body/car could get you in a legal jam. Regarding the GT40's, how could either of the cars Matt mentions be legitimate? Sounds like the plastic 34 Fords titled as such. Further, if both cars are considered legitimate, then haven't the numbers of GT40's increased from the original numbers produced, & if so, then theoretically, an owner could take his or her car, use some parts from it for 1 car & the rest for the second, & now he owns 2 of them. I don't dispute what Matt is saying, just think both cars in the example are bogus. If I was in the market for a GT40, I would RUN, not walk away from both of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 A Studebaker club member is currently going through this scenario in California. (Of ALL places!!) http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?93782-Production-order-questions I am waiting to see the outcome of this one. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capngrog Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 9 hours ago, nick8086 said: Who owns the car? If you have the frame with the correct numbers. The other guy has the tags. and the body.. Who has the car? What car? Without a corresponding title, what you have described are just parts. Is there a title? If there is, who has the title? Depending on the authority having jurisdiction, that body of sages could be petitioned to grant a title for a "home-built" car. Without a paper trail of titling/registration, I doubt that a title could be issued for a specific make/model of car ( e.g., a 19XX "Superfire Deluxe XXXX"). Of course there are those folks (none of whom are members of this forum) who could find a way around any "stinkin'" automobile titling/registration laws. In Florida, for example, the body number (VIN) is what is listed on the title (the title follows the body). I understand that some older vehicles were registered/titled based on a frame number, or even just an engine number, but I've had no experience with that. As to nick8086's final question above, what's that old saying about "possession being 9/10 of the law"? Cheers, Grog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 In PA whoever has the title owns the car regardless who has physical possession. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richasco Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 As stated above this happens with race cars a lot. There are more Lotus XIs now than were built at the factory. A car is damaged in a race and it was faster to replace the body than to repair. The body sits until someone decides to repair it and build a new chassis for it. Now you have two cars with the same serial, the original chassis with new body work so it could keep racing and the repaired body with original tags and a new chassis. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akstraw Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 From a legal title perspective, as you might conclude from the comments thus far, this is a matter that will be subject to interpretation given the applicable state jurisdiction. Given that "the DMV computers are talking to each other", one would think that he who owns the title owns the car. If neither has a title on the database, then the first one that can convince a state to issue a title based upon the evidence he/she has (tag, frame, whatever), will likely own the VIN, and the second to the table will have to get a title as a scratchbuilt car. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 The person who has their vehicle licensed, titled, and insured would be my choice in a contest, In the US the state department of motor vehicles collects tax and provided proof of ownership for licensed vehicles. There are a LOT of collector cars out there without proper ownership transfer. If your paperwork is in the name of some previous owner, I would not call it legally yours. And I surely wouldn't be spending money on it's restoration or even storage, if you've owned the thing for 40 years. For the past, something like, 15 years, I have paid tax, insured, licensed, and received title to all the cars I have purchased, even if the intent was just to resell. "I thought" are the two most dangerous words in the English language. Anyone owning a car that has a vehicle that has not been transferred, legally, to them is one step away from saying "I thought, it was OK." My Grandfather called that flirting with a rattlesnake. No buts, if you can't go to the DMV and take care of it you have a problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 so one has the original set of numbers and the spare may be preceeded by the letter A or 1 or whatever. they both end up having titles and not the biggest deal in the world, unless you are trying to resell for big money............. documentation and history also can be very important in this instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) I am sure many will disagree agree with me, some purely philosophically and some because they can afford to take the high ground. But I would not have a aversion to a car with less than pure origins if it put a car within my reach that otherwise I lacked the resources to own. It might be a race car with a large percentage of after the fact fabrication parts and history, or it could be a later re-body of a sedan in to a open body, or a brass touring built as a speedster ,providing a original body is unobtanium. As long as the car is built purely as a lower cost way of having a nearly the same ownership and use experience , why not? That does not mean I endorse cars that are constructed purely to defraud a buyer. If partial remains were not "fleshed out" in to complete cars there would be a lot fewer vintage race cars and Brass Era cars out there. Greg in Canada Edited June 9, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 15 hours ago, nick8086 said: Who owns the car? If you have the frame with the correct numbers. The other guy has the tags. and the body.. Who has the car? I think whoever has the title wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 And I think you should buy the body and put the two together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Dobbin Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 This will end as an expensive NIGHTMARE for somebody, maybe both. However the lawyers will do just fine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 So are we talking about an actual situation or another hypothetical? It's kind of academic arguing the vagaries of the situation as presented. Is there a problem here on which someone needs advice or is this another hook tossed into the water by a noted fisherman? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Smolinski Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 59 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: So are we talking about an actual situation or another hypothetical? It's kind of academic arguing the vagaries of the situation as presented. Is there a problem here on which someone needs advice or is this another hook tossed into the water by a noted fisherman? FISH ON! PLAY 'IM - DON'T HORSE 'IM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Looks like a short, minimal description title. Nothing a touch of harmless larceny can't cure. I have a hard time with incomplete sentences, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Use to be here in NY state that to register something like a Model A or T Ford you needed a tracing of the engine number and that was the serial number for the vehicle. I often wondered about those numbers when an engine is changed for one that has been rebuilt? In the case of my 1925 White model 15 Truck there never were serial numbers stamped in the block like many other makes. The Numbers on that are both on the frame and on the brass plate on the dash. Lucky me. They match. Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 I think it depends on the vehicle. For example, Model A Fords had two "serial" numbers. One was stamped on the frame just under the front left cowl. The second number was stamped on the engine. Over the years engines were changed, but rarely was the frame replaced. In that case I would use the frame number. I would think most companies would tend to stamp the chassis. Cars are re-bodies often and the chassis number is used. Body tags can be removed easily and in some cases the body number was different than the chassis number. I'm not a lawyer, but in a court of law, I would give the owner of the chassis with the correct numbers the nod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 I recall reading in an old Floyd Clymer book that Ford made just over 300,000 model T's in 1915, and only twice that many are still registered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) Look at teens McLaughlin Buicks. The Frame has a number on a small brass tag on one of the front dumb irons. The crankcase has a large stamped number , and the toe board has a McLaughlin Carriage Co. tag with yet a third number. All three numbers are different from the factory. And potentially any of the three might be the number recorded by authorities for registration {title} purposes. I believe the equivalent U.S. model Buick only has the frame and engine numbers. Greg in Canada Edited June 9, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now