What is the right thing ?

[Guest ANNAPLARRY]

Our 87 Pontiac Safari wagon has reached the point with its oil consumption (1 quart every 200 miles) that we feel it must be repaired this summer. This is neither a restored, nor a daily driver type car. It is a 27 year old, 107K mile, accident free, wagon that is garaged, been repainted, and basically gets what it needs to look and run as close to new as best we can do it. Trouble is, we have not been able to find a shop in our area that recommends rebuilding the original engine. All I have talked to suggest that we just get a rebuilt unit from Jasper and be done with it. We know that a 87 Pontiac is nobody's classic car but my wife have taken care of it since 1989 and feel a sense of responsibility to keep it as original as possible. Are we foolish to want to repair the original engine ?

[Guest AlCapone]

You may find repairs costs exceed the value of the vehicle. Make sure you know the full extent of the repairs before the work is started!

Wayne

[Rusty_OToole]

From a purely practical standpoint it might be considered foolish. But if you like the car and plan to keep it indefinitely it might make sense to have the engine rebuilt. Do you have an estimate on the cost? Does it seem worthwhile to you?

You might be able to find a similar model in good condition for around $2500 or $3500. The only late model replacement would be a minivan. That would cost $30000 for a new one.

The conventional thing would be to junk it and go in hock for the next 5 years for a new SUV or minivan. The rebuilt engine would be a lot cheaper and if you like the car and can get another 5 years out of it, would be money well spent.

[West Peterson]

Since you know your car well, have maintained it better than most people do, I would not recommend buying a similar car. I think you are doing the right thing in either replacing the engine, or rebuilding. Jasper does a good job. I've visited their facility, and I was impressed. If the difference in price is pretty great between rebuilding and replacing, I'd opt for replacing if it was less expensive.

Seems a little (maybe a LOT) odd that it's using so much oil after only 107,000 miles. That's not very many miles.

Welcome to the AACA forum, by the way.

Edited May 29, 2014 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

I cannot imagine that it is burning that much oil even at 107,000 miles. It must have a leak some where. Bad seals, dried out gaskets, Ect. I'm driving a 1990 Chevy Suburban as a work vehicle with around 95,000 miles on it. Took it from NY to California last year and it used a quarter of a quart out, changed the oil in Vancouver, Washington at a buddies place and I used nothing all the way home. Changed it again a while after getting back. I think the places you are taking to are giving you a BS story. Dandy Dave.

[MCHinson]

ANNAPLARRY,

Let me also welcome you to the AACA Discussion Forum.

I too would suggest you carefully examine the engine to see if you can find a leak. Unless it is laying down a huge smoke screen as you drive it, I suspect there is an oil leak that you just have not found. The fix may be relatively simple if you find the source of the leak.

[bhambulldog]

If your engine does indeed need rebuilding

I don't understand the hesitancy for a replacement engine

Jasper rebuilt engines carry a nationwide warranty.

You can't hope to get a warranty like that with a locally rebuilt engine.

The Jasper replacement will be a like engine to the original.

If there were to be a significant difference in value of two like cars,

one car with a replacement Jasper engine vs another car with a locally rebuilt original engine;

In my opinion the car with the Jasper replacement engine would edge out the other

[misterc9]

If you have the 307 Olds engine it's not unusual for them to get old and smokey. Some times this is due to piston and ring damage caused by long term octane knocking and pinging. This might be caused faulty EGR valve or EGR system being carbon clogged. Ignition timing is a little tricky to set. You have to follow the shop manual instructions closely. I had this happen to an 85 307 Olds 88. When I first got it it pinged badly and burned oil. I repaired the EGR system, the ping went away and the oil consumption went way down. A couple years later it blew a piston.

[cahartley]

How much of the work can YOU do?....... :confused:

Pulling a head will tell you much of the story if it's an otherwise good running engine.

My 127,000 mile '59 Chev 235 6 just got a new set of pistons, rings and .001" under rod bearings.

The crankshaft throws were worn only .001" and the cylinders were worn but had virtually no taper.

You KNOW what you have.......you NEVER know what you might GET....... :mad:

[Guest bkazmer]

[

The conventional thing would be to junk it and go in hock for the next 5 years for a new SUV or minivan. .

there are still wagons and hatches for those who want some carrying capacity without the wretched handling of a truck or minivan.

[R Walling]

Go with the reman engine. Then you would have a car that would be worth putting in a few dollars in the future as needed.

"Numbers matching" cars are, in my opinion, the the biggest waste of money that I could imagine.

I own a 57 Corvette that needed an engine repair. I went with a brand new 350 four bolt main engine that, in my opinion, is a much better engine and value than rebuilding a 283ci motor.

Some will say that I devalued the car but I know that I will get much more enjoyment in driving it, with a dependable motor, then with an out dated, under engineered one.

[Guest Tusler 49 New Yorker]

Go to the local High School or College Auto-shop and talk with them. If you can buy the parts they recommend, often I have found the young lads will rebuild it for free of labor.

[joe_padavano]

The 1980s B-body wagons are great cars that are rapidly disappearing. If you like the car and it's otherwise in good shape, install a rebuilt 307 and motor on. Having owned two of these, I'll offer that you need to be sure the transmission is in equally good shape. The 200-4R in stock form has several known weak points that can cause failure, but otherwise it's a great car.

[Pete O]

Our 87 Pontiac Safari wagon has reached the point with its oil consumption (1 quart every 200 miles) that we feel it must be repaired this summer. This is neither a restored, nor a daily driver type car. It is a 27 year old, 107K mile, accident free, wagon that is garaged, been repainted, and basically gets what it needs to look and run as close to new as best we can do it. Trouble is, we have not been able to find a shop in our area that recommends rebuilding the original engine. All I have talked to suggest that we just get a rebuilt unit from Jasper and be done with it. We know that a 87 Pontiac is nobody's classic car but my wife have taken care of it since 1989 and feel a sense of responsibility to keep it as original as possible. Are we foolish to want to repair the original engine ?

Good luck finding a "repair" shop nowadays. Nearly every place you go is a "replace" shop. Nobody wants to invest the time it takes to rebuild anything anymore when you can slap on a new or rebuilt part in a fraction of the time.

[DonMicheletti]

Along with a 107K mile engine you have a 107K mile transmission. When things wear out together they are "happy". You can be assured that if you rebuild the engine, it wont be long before you have to rebuild the trans ($$$) too.

However, you cant buy a new auto for what it would cost to rebuild your Pontiac

[Terry Bond]

Don is right - consider the entire powertrain. It all has the same kind of miles on it. If you can find another trans and rear end in a junk yard it might be proactive to grab and stash them away, provided they are lower mileage units that you've currently got.

As a side-note, it seems that in this country, we're more obsessive about original engines. I recall when living in the UK years ago, it was common to replace engines. Of course when you start talking about high dollar muscle cars, it's a different matter. For your car, I don't believe a good replacement motor would be doing any harm at all.

[rocketraider]

And with Terry's thought in mind, I would look into an Olds 350 or 403 as a replacement. They are a drop-in replacement and will accept all the brackets, transmission TV cable etc with no fuss.

Kept on the computer these engines are capable of delivering about the same gas mileage as the weenie 307 and the difference in power will amaze you. My 81 Safari wagon with 307/200-4R did not like long grades. The 78 Custom Cruiser with 350/350 doesn't know the hill is there. And with good fuel, it will get 16+ mpg. One on the computer with OD should break 20 easy enough- that 307 Safari regularly delivered 24 mpg unless it got hold of some bum fuel.

[bhambulldog]

Along with a 107K mile engine you have a 107K mile transmission. When things wear out together they are "happy". You can be assured that if you rebuild the engine, it wont be long before you have to rebuild the trans ($$$) too.

However, you cant buy a new auto for what it would cost to rebuild your Pontiac

Jasper offers rebuilt transmissions also with a nationwide warranty

[joe_padavano]

And with Terry's thought in mind, I would look into an Olds 350 or 403 as a replacement. They are a drop-in replacement and will accept all the brackets, transmission TV cable etc with no fuss.

I would do this also, but then I'd be doing the work myself. I suspect that the OP will be hard pressed to find a repair shop that would do such a swap, especially since it would be illegal under federal emissions laws (and the fact that a 25 year old vehicle may be exempt from state testing DOESN'T mean that the shop is exempt from complying with federal laws). The feds have never arrested a private party under these laws, but they have prosecuted commercial shops.

[Larry Schramm]

I guess that I would do some basic investigation. First would be to do a compression check to see what the compression is. If it is good, besides a possible leak, you might just have bad valve stem seals which is not a real big expense to replace. Just look at the basics.

[Pontiac59]

I had one of these as a driver many years back and it came to me with a GM Goodwrench reman engine in it already. I did save that for a few years when the car died, but eventually junked it too.

These are fairly rare - you're probably not going to find another easily. They were used up and junked, in fact mine got a tailgate donor off a 1989 that blew it's trans and was junked by the shop it was taken to. It was nicer than mine and I would have bought it and done a motor/trans swap if I had known soon enough. 1989 production was low, under 5,000. IIRC 1987 production was like 10,000-12,000.

But with the 307 it's a dog, I never got more than 17 MPG out of it and it was just adequate as a driver. If the engine is in fact actually using that much oil, I would as suggested go to a larger Olds engine as replacement. You should have a more pleasant car to drive and if anything it will be worth more modified.

In fact, if you replace your trans, or you have a dual-pattern case, you could also bolt a Chevrolet engine in there.

Frankly I would dump the computer controlled carb, simply because rebuilding one is near impossible, and getting it right is tough - no one rebuilds carbs anymore. Last I knew while it was possible to completely rebuild these carbs, to do everything would cost you $800 or more. My dad's '88 Caprice with the same carb they never could get right, and for the last couple years it had a flat spot right off idle no one could cure.

Whereas you can go to a repro Rochester and solve most of those problems easily without much of a dent in fuel economy. It will however require a distributor swap as well.

A car like this is never going to be worth more to be kept all original - if you modify it in ways to improve the drivability and enjoyability of the car, it will actually be worth a little more than if it was original, but the same old dog like the one I used to have.

[joe_padavano]

These are fairly rare - you're probably not going to find another easily.

I have two I've been parting out and I can't give the parts away...

I would as suggested go to a larger Olds engine as replacement. You should have a more pleasant car to drive and if anything it will be worth more modified.

Agreed, but as I noted back up in Post #19, unless you can do the work yourself, it may be difficult to find a shop willing to do such a swap, due to federal law.

In fact, if you replace your trans, or you have a dual-pattern case, you could also bolt a Chevrolet engine in there.

Of course...

You only need to change the motor mounts, frame mounts, accessory brackets, wiring, hose routing, starter, flexplate, etc, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, the SBC is NOT always the right answer.

Frankly I would dump the computer controlled carb, simply because rebuilding one is near impossible, and getting it right is tough

Sorry, but I have to call B.S. on this. I've now owned three of these, and assuming you have the skill and patience to follow the rebuild and adjustment procedure in the Chassis Service Manual EXACTLY, they run great. My wife's daily driver is an 85 Delta 88 with the CCC system and we have no problems with it. The real problem usually isn't the carb, it's either the miles of vacuum hose or it's a failure of one of the external actuators. On my 84 Custom Cruiser, the problem was a failed check valve in the A.I.R. system that allowed exhaust gas to enter and damage the diverter valve on the A.I.R. pump. This caused the system to blow fresh air directly at the O2 sensor during closed loop operation, causing the ECU to think the car was running lean and driving the carb full rich. Fixed the valves and the car ran great.

[Pontiac59]

These cars were made on the same assembly lines, when mine got scrapped a Caprice wagon went with it and the two side by side were so identical it wasn't funny - same color inside and out; the only major difference was a Chevy motor and hydroboost brakes on the Caprice wagon. So I call BS on all this mount changing. Maybe you have to unbolt the lower part of the mount from the frame, and move it to another set of holes, but that is it. Even my old Suburban had three sets of holes in the frame to accomidate various engines in it - and by then they only came with either a 350, a 454, or the 379 diesel. I have a Caprice now up waiting to be parted out with a 305 and 200R4 in it, the only thing wrong with that car is the salt ate it up. I would expect the frame to accomidate 4.3, 5.0 Chevy, 5.1 Olds, and 5.7 Chevy with no issues.

The wiring is even modular, if the harness can't be made to work as-is, just unbolt the plug at the firewall and change the engine side of it for one out of a Chevy motor car.

For that matter, my Safari ended up with '86 Buick power seats in it while I was still driving it. Bolt in, out of an Electra wagon. The only reason it didn't get power windows is the '89 front doors I'd nabbed had different plugs on them.

Heck, the dash is even the same except the cluster, to the point that if you take the emblem off the right side underneath it says Caprice Classic molded into the dash panel.

The parts interchangability on these cars is crazy, from 1977-1989.

I'm sure it will be much easier to find a shop willing to drop in a 350 Chevy carb motor than to find one that has the ability or willingness to touch that computer controlled carb. Federal law? What nonsense is this? There's no law preventing you from putting a larger or different engine in a 30 year old car. Being a 1987 it may have to have a catalytic converter and some other emissions equipment on it, but so what?

[joe_padavano]

These cars were made on the same assembly lines, when mine got scrapped a Caprice wagon went with it and the two side by side were so identical it wasn't funny - same color inside and out; the only major difference was a Chevy motor and hydroboost brakes on the Caprice wagon. So I call BS on all this mount changing.

I never said you CAN'T install the ubiquitous SBC, I said it is far more work than most people think. Unless you have a complete donor car, you will spend a lot of time and money chasing down all the small parts. Yes, the frame mounts are different and yes the chassis is drilled for both. The problem is that on some of the bolt locations you can't access the bolt heads without pulling the lower control arms and working through those holes. The 200-4R currently in the car is already a dual-bolt pattern trans, but the starter mounts on the opposite side of the block from the Olds, so you need the different starter. Obviously you need the flexplate for a Chebby. By your own admission you need to swap the engine harness (again, that needs to come from a donor car). Since the Olds ECU won't be calibrated for a Chebby motor, you either need a different ECU or you need to run off the computer (different carb and distributor). Also, since the ECU controls A/C compressor clutch lockup and converter clutch lockup, if you run off the ECU you need to bypass these functions. Of course, ALL accessory brackets and pulleys are different between the SBC and SBO, so you had better get all of those from the donor car as well. And of course that means that all hoses and belts need to be changed (including the A/C hoses) because everything on the Chebby mounts in a different place. And naturally the exhaust manifolds are different, so you need different exhaust pipes as well.

Yeah, this is B.S.

Of course, Chebby parts are free and fall from the sky, so I guess this won't be a problem.

[joe_padavano]

Federal law? What nonsense is this? There's no law preventing you from putting a larger or different engine in a 30 year old car. Being a 1987 it may have to have a catalytic converter and some other emissions equipment on it, but so what?

It would be THIS nonsense. You might want to read it. As I said, while there is no record of any private party being prosecuted under the anti-tampering law, MANY commercial shops have been fined heftily because of it. Most states now have similar statutes.

The rule of thumb in most states is that you can swap a newer, cleaner engine into an older emissions-controlled car IF you also install ALL the emissions equipment that was installed on that newer engine in it's original installation. You can't legally swap a 455 Olds into this wagon because no 455 Olds was EPA certified for 1987 model year requirements. You CAN legally install a 1987 Chebby 305, but you would be required to install all the emissions equipment that it came with. You can legally install an LS9 supercharged Corvette motor, but again, you would need to install the computer, wiring, cats, etc, etc. These laws are all publicly available. You might want to read up on them before calling BS.

[junkyardjeff]

At 107,000 miles it should not be worn out just yet,check for leaks and possibly replace the valve stem seals before pulling it out.

[Buffalowed Bill]

I don't know about Maryland but in the state of Washington cars older then 25 years old don't require an admission test for licensing. This would allow for any kind of upgrade you choose without the need for an inspection at licensing time.

It could be that with only 107,000 in 27 yrs. your car has had more then its share of short runs where the engine never got up to running temperature. Could be that the engine has stuck rings because of carbon build up. In 1991 I decided to drive the 1963 Studebaker Dayton ht. with 65,000 miles on it from Seattle to California and then on to Las Vegas and return via Hwy. 395. The car was left to me in my father's estate and had been sitting in a garage for 7 years, unused in his garage. I had to unstick several valves but after freeing up the valves it seemed to run fine around town. Once I got it out on the road it started to use oil, about a quart of oil in 125 miles. By the way the car had and still has its original 259 cu." V8. About 200 miles into the trip I realized that oil consumption was going to be a problem but I didn't want to turn back so I bought a case of 12 quarts of oil and continued on. The car ran fine and was getting about 23 mpg. with no plug fouling! By the time we reached Vegas all 12 qts. of oil were used up so I bought another case for the return trip. I checked the level about 125 miles out and to my surprise it was no down at all. Checked again at Reno and it was still up. The upshot was that in the 1400 mi. return trip the car used a little less then one quart. The rings had unstuck and reseated themselves and was now like the 70,000 mile car that I expected it to be. Over the last 25 yrs. I have toured with it for some 40,000 miles, around the western US and Canada even into Mexico, with no issues. I can't say that a long hot run can do for you what it did for "Malarky" and me but I think that it might be worth a try.

[misterc9]

All in all the easiest way to save this wagon would be to rebuild the original engine or buy the correct crate engine. I would lean toward the crate engine. It saves time and you know your cost up front. With those swaps you couldn't estimate the time or cost or even if it would run right when finished. You might wind up with a check engine light nobody can put out.

[Kimo]

I'm with the replace rather than repair folks, and also replace the transmission at the same time. You have a car this is not now and is not likely to ever be a serious collector's item, and as a couple of the others have noted your engine is a collection of worn parts. If you try to repair just one or two of them the rest of the engine and the transmission are just going to be breakdowns about to happen. I would also encourage you, if you have not already done so, to consider replacing your brake systems = not just the pads - since that is the most important part of any car. Being able to stop is a whole lot more important that being able to make it go.

If you go with repairing/restoring you will become what many car collectors have become - having far more invested in their car than it will ever be worth.

[Paul Dobbin]

If you decide to keep the car and put a bunch of money into it, don't forget your insurance! Your insurance company still thinks of it as an old load of no real value. Don't get surprised if the car is totaled and the insurance company who has been figuring premiums on its scrap metal value. Consider getting an agreed value policy for you no special interest vehicle.P. S. I'd go with the crate engine that matches what you had and is the easiest transplant (Read: Least costly).

[joe_padavano]

I don't know about Maryland but in the state of Washington cars older then 25 years old don't require an admission test for licensing. This would allow for any kind of upgrade you choose without the need for an inspection at licensing time.

Once again, if you read my prior posts, my point was NOT the ability to install a different motor and get away with it, my point was that if the O.P. cannot perform this swap his or her self, it will be difficult to find a commercial shop willing to violate federal law and risk being fined. The need for testing is irrelevant. The simple act of tampering with federally required emissions equipment subjects that shop to fines - and to state this once again, while no private party has ever been prosecuted under these laws, PLENTY of commercial shops have.

This is a moot point anyway. The O.P. has not been back to this site since the original post a week ago, so apparently we've all scared him/her off.

[Alfre]

Do you realize that Jasper will rebuild your engine and transmission if ask to.

[junkyardjeff]

Just fix the motor that is in it,pull the valve covers off and see if its not all sludged up and the return holes clogged up. Even if it was maintained regularly if it was not driven enough to get the motor hot that area will get messy.