Brass Car Help & Suggestions

[durant frank]

Hi All.......

I'm thinking of adding a brass car to my collection. The earliest car I have now is a 1916 Ford T touring. My cars are mostly twenties and early thirties, Most are Durant and Star but also a couple Overland and Buick.

I've always liked the brass Buicks and of course the Billy Durant connection is a plus for me.

Looking for any insight or suggestions you can offer.

Thanks........Frank

[1937hd45]

The club is more interested in 1985 and newer vehicles. We get far more use out of our two tone blue 1985 Ford LTD that we bought from the estate of the original owner. Our 1912 Model T is too old to take out of the garage, besides who wants to look at Antique cars, parked it there in 1999 and covered it up. Bob

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Frank I cannot speak from personal experience but I have a friend who chose a Buick as his first Brass car. He is very happy with it and tours with it, reasoning that he wanted a "substantial" enough car in terms of size & hp, but affordable as well. Not sure what your range is in terms of preferred years or dollars, but the early Cadillacs are pretty nice as well, although a move up the ladder a bit price wise, I think.

I love the runabouts as affordable alternatives to a speedster but probably not well suited for touring.

Keep us posted!

[Bill Boudway]

Hi Durant,

Check out this website: HCCA.ORG.

Also, AACA has a non-geographic "region" Called Snappers.

Good luck

[Steve Moskowitz]

The issue is horsepower...the more you want the more it will cost you. The other issue is how are you going to use it? Touring? Brass Buicks are very popular and a lot more plentiful than my favorit brand, Olds.

Careful and patient shopping should yeild you the right car.

As to the second post, Bob is just trying to get my goat every time he can. The fact is we need to educate him on what the club is today. Brass cars are being given more attention than ever before and all you have to do is read the President's column in the Horseless Carriage Gazette to know this is true. Look at our magazine, seems we have featured a lot of brass in almost every issue.

Good luck!!!

[trimacar]

Yes, when it comes to brass cars, horsepower is a pretty good indication of cost. Body style comes next.

For serious touring, a 20 HP car is a hard sell. I really like my little 1910 Hupmobile, but to get out and run long distances is tough, and it doesn't like hills.

25 to 30 HP is much better, and there are some early teens Buicks that meet this, and have some nice styling too. The smaller "white streak" buicks (Model 10) falls in the 20HP and below category. I'm sure that some people are happy touring with them, however.

The larger Buicks of that time period are very desirable, particularly the Model 16 and 17 of 1909-1910. These are large, 35-40HP cars, and while they have a couple of weak points, those are "fixable" for long distance touring. Again, that size and horsepower come at a price.

If you're not already a member, there's a Yahoo group "Brass Buicks," join it and get some opinions from that group, and maybe even hear about a car or two for sale.

Good luck with your search, there's nothing quite like driving a nice brass car on a pretty day, a wonderful experience.....

[A. Ballard 35R]

There are many good choices for you to choose from. As already mentioned, look for something that has sufficient horsepower for your anticipated driving, this is especially true if you intend to due some serious touring, which it appears you are. Open cars are the obvious choice since they are both more plentiful and the most fun in which to tour. Also, don't overlook one and two cylinder cars since there are special tours for these machines and they are great fun to drive and very rewarding.

Suggest that you contact brass car owners in your area and hitch a ride on a brass car tour. If there is no AACA Region with brass cars, there is the Pittsburgh Region of the HCCA.

Good luck with your pursuit and enjoy the fun of brass car touring.

[1940_Buick]

Brass era cars are a lot of fun to drive! I've owned cars from every era from 1911 to the 1960's, and the brass era are by far the most fun to drive.

A few things to consider:

- As Trimacar said, 30 hp is ideal. Although brass era Ford Model T's run along nicely too. Once you pass the 30 hp range, the price increases significantly.

- Try to choose a car that has a reasonable following. Without advice from other owners I'd have spent much more time puzzling over problems with my EMF.

- Buicks are great cars and have a considerable following. Others I'd suggest are EMF (of course), Hudson, and Overland.

- Be patient. Brass era cars don't come up for sale very often. There are always a couple out there fishing for prices that are 20% or more over market. On the flip side, when you find a good car for a good price, and its what you want, don't hesitate. I missed out on a great car once because I waited a week too long.

- Join the HCCA, attend an event if possible, and get to know some of the members. Brass era cars are not always advertised on the open market.

- Each year older, usually means more expensive. As a rule a 1912 is more expensive than a 1913. A 1911 is more expensive than a 1912... etc.

If you get a chance, on May 15th the Brass in Berks HCCA tour starts. The 15th will be a day for showing off cars, talking, and browsing the flea market. It will be held in Reading, PA.

[jdome]

About 1912 or 13 is the last of the "brass" cars. Some cars had nickel plate as an option beginning in 1910. By 1914, everything was nickel plated, although the HCCA considers 1915 and older as "Brass Era".

Brass in Berks Co. is a good tour to visit. If you are going to go for one day, the Sunday before the tour is the day to go. There is a small swap meet with usually a couple of cars for sale and most of the tour cars are on the field along with a few other cars that show up just for Sunday.

Brass cars are not hi-way cars. 1-2cyl cars are good for about 25-35 MPH and 4 cylinder are good for 35-45 MPH. Some 6's, expensive, can be driven over 45. 1914 Cadillacs, 4 cyl with 2 speed rear (only year it was available), can be driven 50+ on the hi-way but you are risking your life if you do. You almost need to own a truck & trailer if you want to take your car somewhere you can't get to by back roads.

They are a lot of fun to drive. Young kids under the age of 16 are drawn to brass cars.

[trimacar]

I've always considered the 1909-1910 automobiles to be some of the best of the brass cars to own.

It's "late" enough that they were mechanically good cars, and the look with no front doors is more along the lines of what a "horseless carriage" should look like.

As doors were added, some styling got very slab-sided. Not to say that there aren't some very nice looking cars in the 1911-14 years, just that some styling suffered.

The most desirable for touring would be a pre-1916 six cylinder car, but those are hard and expensive to come by.

40Buick is absolutely correct, unless you have the ability or means to make parts and repair things yourself, try to stick with a car that has a following, one reason the Buicks are such a good choice. There are enough of them that weaknesses are known, and usually someone has a fix. Hudson made some great cars too. Every now and then a good deal comes along on a less well known car. Not long ago there was a 30HP IHC touring car (they made cars other than high wheelers) for sale, reasonably priced and very nice looking. It didn't last long.....

And, true too, if you find a reasonably priced car, jump on it.....I have a 1910 Hudson project, there was a nice older restoration touring for sale in California, for less that what it will cost to restore my project. I hemmed and hawed thinking about it, and in a few days decision was made for me...it was gone.

Same thing happened to me on a 1909 Model 24 Pierce (4 cylinder, but still a fine car). Guy had an advertised price, I called him at just the right time, he was just fed up and ready to sell, named a steal of a price, a price that any pile of parts of that car would have been worth. I foolishly (in this case, not the rule) asked for pictures, he got them to me, by the time I called again (and this all happened in a 24 hour time period) car was sold.

If it feels right, move on it......good luck.....

[durant frank]

Hi All......

Thanks for all the great information. Will check out some of the groups suggested.

I've been a member of the AACA since the late 1960's when I bought my first Durant. The best overall general Club for my varied interests. We belong to most of the marque clubs for the cars we own.

We also belong to the HCCA, and are planning to make the "Brass in Berks" this year.

I'm very fortunate to have a wife who loves the old cars also. She has a few that she calls her own. She has a 1926 Star roadster and also talked me into buying an original "T" center door because it has a cute oval rear window!

I like the Model 10 Buick, but you have given me more to consider. We enjoy driving our cars and sharing the adventure with others. So reliability and support are important. None of our cars are "show" cars but fun drivers. At least the ones that run!

Our cars are old and slow, just like us. So cruising along at under 30mph is fine. Open cars seem to be the most fun, great riding around with the top down on the back roads.

Keep the suggestions coming really appreciate all the help......

Frank

[Dandy Dave]

Maybe as others have suggested, you want something earlier than my 1915 Buick. It is on the tail end of what HHCA is allows. Now, with that said there are some plusses here. The C-36 roadster, and C-37 touring came with a Delco starter, so there is no hand cranking or adding an un-original starter. These cars are 37 HP and I have toured with mine once. The only problem I had on the tour was a flat. It likes to run around 35 miles an hour and is a good hill climber. Also you may want to look at the 1914 B series, very similar to the 1915's and also came with a Delco starter as standard equipment. The Brass Buick's site is a good place to look.

BrassBuicks : BrassBuicks

Stuff does not move though there fast, but if you ask questions most of the time someone will answer. Dandy Dave!

Edited January 27, 2011 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Your getting lots of good advice from people who know what their talking about. I agree with most everything said. I looked for a brass car for 5 years, finding nothing that met my needs. After long consideration and talking to a bunch of HCCA members I decided on a later HCCA car only because of SAFETY. I would have much rather had a 09 or 10 brass car but with today’s road conditions and drivers that have no manners or respect, I thought it would be best to go with a 13 to 15 year car. I decided I wanted a 14 Caddy as it hade the power, performance, and size of a big 6 cylinder car, and with the two speed rear end will keep up with almost any HCCA monster. It has met all my expectations and more. As Dave said, and I learned the hard way also, when you see a good brass car jump on it right away! I lost a 38 HP Pierce from the lack of making an instant decision! I just wanted to think it over for a few hours and lost out. When I came across the Cadillac, I paid on the high end of the scale for a car with 8,000 original miles that was turn key and ready to go. It was a wise decision. The most often comment on the car I get when it's out for a drive is, IS it for sale? Makes me feel real good about my decision.

[Terry Bond]

Brass is beautiful, and if you were on the recent Reliability Tour in Georgia, you had the chance to tour with around 150 great brass cars from 1906 on up. Of course there were some great Model T Fords, but we had Mitchell, Buick, White, Pierce, Overland and many more. There were some absolutely perfect showpieces; original unrestored, and just well maintained old restorations. Brass cars are alive and well and I was glad to see Steve mention some new initiatives to help provide even grater exposure and opportunities to enjoy these early historic vehicles. There is as new joint effort being born between the three major clubs - AACA, HCCA and VMCCA to explore joing events and enhance the brass car experience. We've not forgotten where we came from and I'm thrilled for the future!

Terry

[Guest Tishabet]

I've been thinking about brass cars for quite a while, and so have followed this thread with some interest. I am aware of the astronomical prices of some brass vehicles, but I guess I'm not familiar with the prices commanded for more "entry level" brass cars. Approximately what should I expect to pay for a running and driving 20HP and below "driver" condition car, and would the short list of good candidates still be the usual suspects as for bigger HP cars (Buick, Overland, Hudson)?

[trimacar]

Well, I'll stick my neck out and give some price ranges, anyone is welcome to correct or disagree with them. Price ranges are my opinion, for nice cars that are tour proven, basket cases are much less, pristine show cars are more

Pre-1916 Model T's are available in the 10K to 20K range, with the exception of low serial number, early two pedal, or open valve cars, any of which can be well above this range, not my area of expertise, but I think an early open valve engine is worth 10K just for the engine....

Pre 1905 cars (London-Brighton eligible) probably start around 40K and go up, and the low end may be a curved dash Olds, not a Pope Hartford or other larger early car.

Small, lower HP cars (small Maxwells and such) seem to be in the 10K to 20K range. (not to be confused with the larger Maxwells, they made some very, very nice larger horsepower cars..)

20 HP cars (Hupmobile, EMF, and such) were stuck in the 10-15K range for a long time for a good driver, now they're more in the 20-25K range (with the exception, on the Model 20 Hupp, of a superbly restored example that sold for 80K or so).

25-30 HP cars (Buicks, Hudsons, EMF, and the like) usually start about 25K, and go up from there, maybe topping out around 40K for unusual or extremely good condition examples.

When you get to 35 HP, prices go up accordingly. Figure 50K to start. A Buick Model 16, for example, will go 50-70K if nice. My project Model 16, I not long ago mentioned to a collector thatI figured it was maybe worth 25K as it sat, unfinished, and he was immediately asking if it was for sale....

Six cylinder cars (such as Hudson and some other brands, I'm not talking Pierce), I'm a little out of the loop, but I think they're in the 50-80K range, very desirable for touring.

40 to 50 HP, figure on getting into six figures. And, if your heart is set on one of the high quality cars (Pierce, Packard, Peerless, to name a few) from pre-1916, figure 200-400K. That said, a very nice Stoddard-Dayton touring sold at Hershey last year, what, 180K or so, seemingly a bargain. With one of the "premium" cars, such as a Mercer runabout, your bank account better have a number with six zeros after it, or pretty darn close, unless you want to be outbid.

So, that's a pretty broad brush, but may give you some idea of ballparks.

Edited January 28, 2011 by trimacar
put the T (not model t) in Har.ford (see edit history)

[Guest Tishabet]

trimacar, that is indeed very helpful... I figured that the model T would probably be the common entry-level car for this era, and I had read about the london-brighton eligibility premium.

I've looked around a bit today and have located some interesting candidates...I am definitely in the sub 20k range and you have given me some good leads; thanks for the info!

[trimacar]

For support, good friendship, lots of tours and discussion, you absolutely cannot go wrong with a nice Model T.....and parts are a phone call and Visa card away.

I've only owned one momentarily, unfortunately, an open valve car, when I knew nothing about them. I've only driven one, a wonderful restoration, or, as my buddy Greg stated, "If you're ever going to drive one, this is the one to drive.....(I was doing upholstery work on it, needed to move it and didn't have a clue how to make it move....)

I like the Hupmobiles, 1909-10, but prejudiced of course since I own and drive one. I feel they're a step up from Model T. High tension magneto, slightly more horsepower, the Model 20 runabouts (tourings are rare, and the same Greg says they are great...because you have two extra people to help push) are very nice looking.....

One last comment. I wrote Model T without "the," because Henry Ford never said "The Model T," he was discussing the current model of his car, so he would say "here we have Model T....."

[durant frank]

Hi David.....Thanks for the price ranges.....

I would like to stay in the 30k range. So my quest for a brass car is doable.

Lots of good info so far. Appreciate the input.

Frank

[W_Higgins]

Look into a White (not steamers, unless you're so inclined, though they far exceed that budget). I think the lower horsepower "gas" White's are one of the most underrated brass cars out there.

[1940_Buick]

Just a few comments on price range

keep in mind condition makes a big difference and these are average prices:

Ford Model T - 1915 = $13,000 - $18,000

1914 = $16,000 - $24,000

1913 = $16,000 - $24,000

1912 = $18,000 - $26,000

1911 = $22,000 - $28,000

1910 & 1909 = expensive

Mid-range 30 hp cars including EMF, Hudson, Overland, Buick, etc

touring cars with front doors - $25,000 - $35,000

touring cars with no front doors - $35,000 - $45,000

These are just my opinion based on what I've seen in the current market.

Prices have risen significantly in the past 10 years. Cars that would have sold for $28,000 in 2000, are selling for $39,000 now.

The good news is that these cars are sort of "blue chip" cars in line with full classics (although maybe not worth as much). I wouldn't expect them to drop in price like we've seen the muscle cars. (or Mustangs before them, etc.)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Great thread. Thanks guys who are posting price ranges and sharing knowledge. Gaining interest in these cars but I share edinmass' concerns about roadibility or safety. If not touring in a group or parade use the traffic could be a nightmare. We had issues with ignorant drivers in our 40 hp Model A, add the slower reflexes and speed of a Brass car and your really not going to take it out on a Sunday afternoon around town, at least not where I live or to the degree I do with my Packard. That said, I would still like to add one someday.

I would be interested (hoping Frank is also) in hearing from Brass guys where & when they enjoy there cars outside of tours. Seeing anything much earlier than late teens on the road is very, very rare around my neck fo the woods.

[oldford]

For my part, I prefer the fast pace of the 1 & 2 cylinder tours. My 1908 1 cylinder Reo is just the right combination of drive-ability and primitiveness. I bought it because it was more primitive than my Model T and capable of highway speeds in excess of 15 mph. If you are looking for an early car, give the Reo's a look. Like Ransom Olds said, "There is a tremendous amount of power wasted in a vertical engine." Also, when your axle separates while on tour, there is not much danger, since you're going 20 mph.

Frank

[Larry Schramm]

Old Ford,

Been there done that, except my axle broke driving up a ramp.

[edinmass]

Gentlemen, Trimacar or Dave is a good friend and we always have a good time at the meets, but I think most of his prices seem a little low to the current market. (By at least 20 % and probably more.) I spent 5 years looking and bought a car 2 years ago, and to my memory, those prices look optimistic to me at that time. I know nothing about the T prices. I would make several other observations. Cubic inch and horse power should be considered. There's nothing like CID to pull a hill. Don't forget literature of the time was VERY optimistic with their horse power ratings. Lot's of 35 HP cars are more like 28- 30. Chassis length is also important. As a big guy, several cars I came across were not practical for my size in the front seat, especially with a passenger next to me. Also, BE SURE WHAT YOU ARE BUYING! I looked at 7 1914 Caddy's before I purchased mine, 5 of them were 13's with out the 2 speed rear. I got lots of stories but they were NOT what they were advertised to be. BE CAREFULL! No matter what a great deal a car is if your not comfortable driving it, it's a long day on tour. One thing is for sure, by the time you find a car that fits your needs and price range, you will be kicking yourself for one or two you let pass. I sure did. Just take it in stride and keep smiling. Ed

Edited January 28, 2011 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1940_Buick]

I can understand the concerns of modern traffic. The key to enjoying your brass era car (other than good maintenance) is your choice of roads. In PA we're fortunate to have plenty of nice roads. You have to choose your route carefully, but you soon learn routes that are relaxing and avoid the rush.

Generally I've found other drivers to be very courteous as long as it's not the morning or evening rush hour. Driving our cars in the cities of Bethlehem and Allentown isn't a problem either. Its fun cruising through the historic area in Bethlehem in the evening, when the sidewalk cafe's are full. You should see the camera phones come out when we chug past!

I used to be afraid of driving in the cities. But eventually realized that your safe in the city because other cars can't get up to high speeds.

There are 2 key factors to keep in mind:

1) What's behind you doesn't matter. But what's in front of you can hurt you! In other words leave plenty of room in front because your brakes aren't that good.

2) When in traffic, focus on driving your car. Keep your mind on what you are doing. Don't try and drive it like it's a modern car. Don't get distracted. Don't get stressed or tense. Don't go faster than you feel safe.

As long as it's not rush hour, and you're not blocking traffic on main roads, people enjoy seeing our cars.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

If you're interested there's a '15 Maxwell 25 4 cyl. 21 hp 103" wheel base, museum quality for $20,000 in Augusta, Ga. 706-798-4939 in the current issue of Auto-Roundup. I have nothing to do with this except for being a subscriber passing along a lead.

[Dandy Dave]

Old Ford,

Been there done that, except my axle broke driving up a ramp.

Yeah... And guess who's making new axles for Larry. Dandy Dave!

[Guest De Soto Frank]

"The good news is that these cars are sort of "blue chip" cars in line with full classics (although maybe not worth as much). I wouldn't expect them to drop in price like we've seen the muscle cars. (or Mustangs before them, etc.)"

I don't think the Brass / Nickel cars experienced a "bubble" like we've seen with the various Muscle Cars over the last decade...

I would agree that they are probably a "safe" investment, not necessarily in terms of making money on them, but at least in their not experiencing a significant de-valuation.

This is a great thread... I am still aspiring towards a Brass car... lots of good info.

Interesting that 100 years later, the Model T Ford stills holds it place as a sort of "entry-level" automobile... within the reach of the "average working man"...

[jdome]

If you're interested there's a '15 Maxwell 25 4 cyl. 21 hp 103" wheel base, museum quality for $20,000 in Augusta, Ga. 706-798-4939 in the current issue of Auto-Roundup. I have nothing to do with this except for being a subscriber passing along a lead.

There are also about 30 brass cars listed on the "Horseless Carriage Club of America" web site classifieds ranging from about $20,000 to $200,000. Some with photos and some without. You should at least check it out to get some price ideas. Some have been listed for several months which might indicate too high of a price and others are marked as sold in a few days.

[Larry Schramm]

It is great to have friends in this group even though I was called a farmer when I am a retired engineer.

"Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Schramm View Post

Old Ford,

Been there done that, except my axle broke driving up a ramp.

Yeah... And guess who's making new axles for Larry. Dandy Dave!"

__________________

[Marty Roth]

Durant Frank,

Please Email me, or phone 504-885-8397 (h) or 504-258-3909 ©

David (trimacar), a long time and trusted friend is right on, and with Edinmass' price comments, he too is accurate.

I have a 1914 Buick B-37 Touring, and would like to share some thoughts. The car is located not very far from you, if you would like to see what one is really like. A 1914 Buick B-37 is a 35 hp car and is Buick's 1st year for Delco electric starter and electric lights.

click on the photos to enlarge.

Marty

[Dandy Dave]

Martys car is very similar to my 1915 Buick Roadster. The chassies are Basically same. The starters are different for the 1914, and 1915 years. The starter will only work in the models that share the same engine, even though they may look the same, the windings are different for the C- 54 and B and C-55 models. The small differences are that the 1915 has a Stewart vacumm fuel pump. While the 1914's have an air pump on the side of the engine that pressurizes the fuel tank to two or three pounds. Also, the 1915 was increased to 37 HP. The basic engine is the same so maybe they had less drag on the newer starter generator combo? Take Marty up on his offer. You may just get the Bug. My Buick has a lot of leg room and is very comfortable to tour in. Marty's touring car should be very similar. The open overhead valves are fun to watch. I sometimes open the hood at a show and start the engine for the crowd. You should hear the Ooowwwww's and Aaaahhhhh's. Dandy Dave!

Edited January 30, 2011 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

Frank,

There's a nice 1910 Peerless coming up for a no-reserve auction at Amelia Island March 12th. It's a Model 27 Landaulet, 38 h.p., 410 cu. in., 4-cylinder, dual ignition.

The Standard Catalog of American Cars, Vol. I, 1805-1942 of 1996 estimates the value at only $23,000 for this model, condition #1. While Peerlesses tend to be a little undervalued...I think it might go a tad higher than that, to paraphrase Matthew Quigley.

Edited February 3, 2011 by jeff_a
corrected HP (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

This has been posted elsewhere but a lot of younger collectors are discovering these cars maybe in part due to affordability (of some models) and maybe the appeal of them as well. I have seen some nice brass cars being shown be people younger than myself, although I am mid-40s. We like collectors of all ages, this comment is only worthy of note that there is a market for these cars that may actually be better than a few years ago. Getting them back on the road and out of the garage can only be a good thing.

[Guest Tishabet]

This has been posted elsewhere but a lot of younger collectors are discovering these cars maybe in part due to affordability (of some models) and maybe the appeal of them as well. I have seen some nice brass cars being shown be people younger than myself, although I am mid-40s. We like collectors of all ages, this comment is only worthy of note that there is a market for these cars that may actually be better than a few years ago. Getting them back on the road and out of the garage can only be a good thing.

For what it's worth, I am turning 31 in a couple of weeks and these brass-era vehicles ring my bell for sure... more than most pre-war cars, and more than just about anything post WWII. I love the big touring cars in particular, but I think my wallet will lead me toward a more modest first brass car.

[jdome]

I belong to the AACA, VMCCA, CCCA, and HCCA. I see more 20 & 30-somthings involved in hands on ownership in brass than any of the other eras. I'd say many are second or third generation brass hobbiests. The HCCA seems to bread their own membership more than any other car era that I'm involved in. That's a good thing.

[Ian Hayhurst]

Frank--you cannot go wrong with a Model T--lots of parts, events, and support. I notice you mention Overland in your current stable--their brass-era models are also good, but you may want to avoid those with the earlier planetary transmisions. 1912-1915 are good and reliable designs (I have a '14 Overland roadster and a '15 T, so my comment is certainly biased!).

[Guest Silverghost]

Frank:

My late Father & I have a fair size collection of mostly Brass Era autos.

I live just outside NE Philadelphia~~~

You also live in PA~~~

If you ever want to talk or look at some Brass Era autos give me a call !

[jim43]

This is a great thread, more comments?

I would say that even the non popular make cars can be kept on the road. Dyke's Encylopedia and other publications were a great help in paving the way for new car owners and mechanics alike to make repairs on their cars. And they do the same for us in these times. Methods are explained in simple enough terms so that repairs can usually be carried out by the mechanically inclined. That is part of what make these old cars so interesting. No rocket science or computers involved.

Jim43

Edited February 1, 2011 by jim43
added comment (see edit history)