Disturbing.

[rocketraider]

From WBTM radio webpage, Danville VA 3/4/8.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(DANVILLE) -- AFTER 84 YEARS, WYATT BUICK - PONTIAC WILL CLOSE ITS DOORS FOR GOOD NEXT MONTH. LANDON WYATT JR., OWNER AND OPERATOR FOR SEVERAL DECADES, SAYS GENERAL MOTORS AND OTHER MANUFACTURERS ARE TRYING TO CONSOLIDATE ALL OF THEIR MODELS INTO ONE DEALERSHIP PER TOWN WHEREVER POSSIBLE. THEREFORE, HE HAS REACHED AN AGREEMENT TO TURN OVER HIS FRANCHISES TO ROBERT WOODALL. WYATT SAYS IT WILL TAKE A MONTH OR MORE FOR LAWYERS TO FINALIZE THE DEAL. HE EXPECTS MOST OF HIS EMPLOYEES TO TRANSFER TO WOODALL.</div></div>

This dealership was founded in 1924 and holds VA dealer license #5.

This GM tactic scares the hell out of me, especially since this one dealer (Woodall) already holds the Chevy, Cadillac, GMC, Mazda and Nissan franchises in this city. Now he'll have Buick and Pontiac.

I guess I'll have to drive 30 or 40 miles for dealer parts and support now, because I absolutely refuse to do business with <span style="font-weight: bold">any</span> Woodall-owned dealership. I have my reasons.

I think GM is ultimately shooting itself in the ass with this dealer strategy because it effectively creates a monopoly in any town that at one time had three or four GM dealers.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but I like a small-town way of doing business. Needless to say I can't stand CarMax lots either.

[joe_padavano]

Given that the last Oldsmobile dealership closed a while ago, I'd already given up on GM. Besides, virtually none of my cars are new enough that I can buy parts at the dealership, so it's kind of a moot point for me.

[ted sweet]

chryler is doing same thing. dealers that dont sell x amount of cars are being shut down.

[Tom M]

Then how do we shop for best price?

And here we were think of buying 300 in the near future.

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> chryler is doing same thing.</div></div>

Yup, We had a Dodge dealer and A Jeep dealer in our small town. They were told one had to buy the other one out or they were both going. The Pontiac dealer is gone about a year now and the Chevy/Buick dealer is looking for a buyer.........Bob

[Twitch]

Not to worry. We'll all be bowing and eating rice cakes at the dealr relatively soon anyhow.

[Matt Harwood]

Caution: verbose rant ahead.

On the one hand, it stinks for the dealers and perhaps even for locals who dealt with them for convenience's sake. I was saddened when the local Buick dealer in my neighborhood closed for good. But when Buick only sells about 10 cars a month at a dealership, well, that's how economics work.

On the other hand, it is probably a great thing for GM the company, and will make them stronger in the long run. Consolidating gives them a lot more freedom in terms of product. Instead of making, say, 4 different versions of their minivans to satisfy the Chevy dealer, the Pontiac dealer, the Saturn dealer and the Buick dealer, they can make just one good one and give it to one brand. The dealer network has grown so large and ponderous that it could largely dictate what GM would do in cases like this. The Buick dealers had slow sales, so they wanted an SUV. General Motors rebadged TrailBlazer and called it a Buick.

Why waste finite development and marketing dollars on redundant products? Why should a Pontiac dealer have to compete with a Buick dealer over what is, essentially, the same product from the same company? With overseas competition being what it is, why should GM compete with itself? I've long advocated consolidation of the product lines--every brand can't be all things to all people and succeed. They don't all need a small car, a medium sedan, a large sedan, a minivan and at least one SUV. Make one product and make it great. Don't waste money giving everyone a watered-down product because there wasn't enough money to make one great car that didn't need 4 different fascias, wheel designs, interiors, options list, suspension tunes, etc, never mind the costs associated with certifying a myriad of near-identical vehicles (for instance, if you change the grille on a car, it has to be re-crash-tested). Plus now you don't have to remove content to make the higher-priced units seem "better" than the low-cost cars.

Better yet, it may encourage something other than "end of the quarter" planning at GM. The imports plan a decade ahead. GM plans for the fall clearance sale. The dealers are the reason because they operate "paycheck to paycheck" without long-range planning--they don't have to plan. But a big company like GM needs to look far enough forward that they aren't merely meeting the competition, but exceeding them. GM has the resources and the talent to do it. In my opinion, this is one step in the right direction, even though it may inconvenience guys like us. A longer drive to the store doesn't make me stop wanting milk.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then how do we shop for best price?

</div></div>

The Internet. Pitting dealers against each other is not nearly as effective as going in knowing their prices and working for a deal from the bottom up. This is the way you buy a car today, not by saying, "Well, dealership X gave me this price." That implies that if you get that price, you'll buy it. Not much power there--you've just locked yourself into a price that perhaps you could beat with a little knowledge about pricing. The dealers all work from the same price list. If dealer X can make a profit at that price, so can dealer Y. They can't beat the Internet, though.

And the threat of walking out will still be very effective--you can certainly find another dealer, just not one a mere half-mile away.

When you go shopping for your new 300, E-mail me. I'll tell you how I do it and how to beat the dealer at his own game. I love buying new cars because of this. Big fun.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Glenn, this has been going on for quite a few years. Sadly, with GM's loss of market share there are just too many dealers. The same goes for Ford and Chrysler. The success of import franchises have left so many dealers that were founded long ago with not enough reason to continue. Their real estate in some cases is worth more than staying in business. Almost any dealer in America will tell you there are too many people sharing the pie. Finding a fairer exit strategy than the one they gave us Olds dealers is the key.

Too some, owning a new car dealership may seem like an opportunity to mint money and in some cases it may be, due to the location and types of franchises held. However, in the last 10-15 years it has become much more difficult to obtain a fair profit for dealers especially in the light of horrifically spiraling costs of doing business, especially on the technology and regulation side. Most domestic dealers today just do not have enough volume to support their operations.

Increasingly, the numbers tell an incredible story of dwindling franchises controlled by a very few dealers. The days of someone working their way up to become a new car dealer are almost over but these are the times we live in.

Matt, you'd be surprise how much long range planning is attempted by most dealers today...especially the conglomerates as they have no choice. Dealers are reliant on the product but they have learned the hard lesson that they need to find other avenues to overcome a soft market or slow selling vehicles. It has become a very sophisticated business.

[Bill Stoneberg]

Before you buy a 300, rent one for a weekend and take it for a long drive. I am a large boy and after a couple of hours behind the wheel I was quite uncomfortable. I couldn't get the seats adjusted.

By the time I was done driving from Houston to Nashville to Mobile to Home, I had decided that I didn't really want one of those.

[Guest windjamer]

We had two ford dealers here in town.One run by a bunch of pin heads the outher by a lady that forgot more about ford and ford parts than all the rest of both dealers knew. The one went belly up and the second bought them out. Befor the ink was dry I was told by the second, we are the best. We are the only dealer in town,treat me nice and MABY Ill take care of you. My shop spent about 2500. a mo. with her I thought she was just fooling, didnt take long to learn she wasnt. Took evan less time to transfer all our buss. to a dealer about 30 miles away.

[1937hd45]

If I ever get to the point in my life that I can afford a new vehicle, and have free time to worry about finding a dealer you guys will be the first to know.

[Tom M]

Bill,

Thanks for the feed back on the 300. When you same big boy do you mean height wise?

See I am only 5'7" 165-170. Would it be a problem for me also?

[mrpushbutton]

Tom, you'll fit just fine, and be comfortable.

Matt Harwood's advice about using the internet to know as much as possible is terrific advice. It is now possible to go into a showroom and know more than some salesmen.

When it comes time to sit down with the salesman and do the dealing, memorize this phrase <span style="font-style: italic">"if you get out of that seat and leave this room, I get out of <span style="font-weight: bold">THIS</span> seat and leave the dealership, and I don't come back"</span> This won't be the first '08 300 he has sold, he knows what he can and cannot do. Either he can do the deal or he can't--you don't need his business manager in the mix. Their news is never to your advantage.

most people would rathter go to the dentist than buy a new car.

[Guest bkazmer]

like any franchised item, a car dealer expects the value of his franchise protected. That means reducing the number of other people licensed to sell in the same area. GM does indeed need fewer dealers, and having fewer dealers can accelerate the elimination of the "badge engineered" Ponmoicks. Look at how many Toyota dealers vs. Ford dealers inhabit the same turf.

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> most people would rather go to the dentist than buy a new car.</div></div>

I LOVE buying new cars, It's almost a contact sport with me. I especially like when the salesman tells me what he is going to "give me" for my trade in and I tell him I don't care. When he tries to tell me anyway I tell him he can have it for nothing, I don't care squat about the trade in value. I only want one number and one number only, and that's what I have to write the check for. They HATE when that happens.

Things are getting tougher though. With dealers getting fewer and further between driving distance for service is getting to be a real factor. This will give the remaining dealers real leverage..Bob

[Bill Stoneberg]

I too like dealing with car dealers. Its like a big game to me and gets me going. My wife on the other hand hates it. But I am willing to sit for however long it takes till I get the deal I want.

Tom, I am only 5'11 but heavy (read fat). After a couple of hours of driving my legs were hurting. After a few more my back was. I normally drive a Dodge Pickup and can go 600 - 700 miles a day with no issues. I could do it in the 300 but wasn;t as comfortable. My 64 Riviera was more comfortable then the 300 and I dorve that 5200 miles in 2 weeks with no problems.

[Guest 1926pack]

"If you get out of that seat and leave this room, I get out of this seat and leave the dealership, and I don't come back." Best car buying advice I ever heard.

[Rusty_OToole]

GM's market share peaked around 1966. Since then they have been riding on their reputation and a dwindling supply of diehard GM fans.

Not too long ago I read where their bonds had been derated to junk bond status and how the company itself was dying.

It takes a long time for a dinosaur to die but the writing has been on the wall for GM a long, long time.

[jscheib]

Boy,

This has sure generated a lot of communication in one day. I would think after 84 years, there just may be a few old closets with some interesting old spare parts. I would think someone would want to check that out. You never know.

John

[MCHinson]

I have enjoyed some of my car buying experiences. I really enjoyed the time the sales manager asked me if I could retire from the Police Department and come to work for him. He did not realize that I could not drive such a hard bargain if I was not the buyer.

I once enjoyed taking all of the salesman's "Thanks for stopping by" letters and postcards back to him, while driving the Riviera that I bought from his competition and telling him. "I told you I was going to pay X number of dollars for a Riviera and I did. Now, stop wasting your time and postage sending me junk mail", and walking out.

When I traded my 1999 Chevrolet Tahoe on my 2003 Tahoe, I talked to the Sales Manager by phone and we agreed on a trade deal without either of us seeing the other's vehicle. I told him truthfully everything that was wrong with my trade and he assured me that there was nothing wrong with his vehicle. We both went away happy.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Well, the view is a bit different from the other side of the desk sometimes. Not every salesperson has either the knowledge nor the responsibility of what constitutes a fair profit for the dealer. There are numerous variables and I sure the heck (for the most part) wanted my managers to have final say so in financial transactions. Most dealers are personally signed so if things go sour there goes the house!

I won't get into all the variables but yes there are a lot of games played at certain dealerships and as such I embraced one-price selling at my store in my last years. I still believe in it personally.

I can also tell you that most of my customers had been loyal repeat customers and I serviced several generations which can only be done by dealing fairly. However, i can tell you of numerous new customers that found it "ok" to defraud our business in a lot of ways.

The auto business victimized themselves and it is a shame that the reputation of sales people is so poor as in many communities the dealer is a key to a lot of good things that happen.

No time for a long story tonight but try to do the math of what it takes to survive in the car business. Look at the facilities customers and the factories demand, look at the technology they must buy, taxes, employee costs, energy usage, etc. Then try to stomach someone saying you deserve only to make a couple of hundred dollar profit on a $30,000 automobile when they probably paid a $700 profit on a $1400 sofa! Perspective, does change things.

[jscheib]

Well put Steve,

I think profit margins are quite a bit more in other retail businesses then for autos. After all, "buyer beware" is and always has been a motto to remember.

On the otehr side, I always say, the customer may not always be right, but he is always the customer.

John

[rocketraider]

Scheib, this dealership keeps a couple of restored old Buicks in their showroom, so they are probably in tune to what the stuff is worth, if they have any. As they say, it never hurts to ask.

Wyatt Buick-Pontiac Inc

2521 Riverside Drive

Danville VA 24540

434-792-5711

I really hate to see this dealership close. They absorbed the Pontiac franchise about 10 years ago when the Fuquay family was fighting off a Woodall takeover attempt, and the old man did not want any part of it. Wyatt Buick bought the Pontiac store then and a lot of the Fuquay employees came along as part of the deal. Now if they're lucky they'll be able to keep a GM dealership job. I'm hoping the dealership buildings will go as part of the package and the Buick-Pontiac stores will at least stay at the same location.

It's right next door to the old Olds-Cadillac dealer, which succumbed to Woodall in 1997 right after the Centennial and closed up- after they'd spent all the money to upgrade to the "Centennial" dealer appearance guidelines. The Volvo dealer located there for a while until Volvo N.A. pulled the rug out from under them.

I just don't like the idea of one dealer being the only game in town.

[Ron Green]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bhigdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I especially like when the salesman tells me what he is going to "give me" for my trade in and I tell him I don't care. </div></div>

Or he says I can't make that deal, I'll have to go see the manager and run it by him.

[mrpushbutton]

This goes back to my post re: leaving the room. As we have discussed, there is an air of mistrust around the whole business of buying a car. It's thought of as a dirty business, and as Steve has pointed out from the dealer's perspective, there are losses on their side occasionally.

I still don't fathom how you can run a business and not have your sales personnel know their limits/numbers. This business of getting up and leaving to go ask for this and that just further breeds mistrust, as does the good cop/bad cop routine between the salesman and business manager. I would rather have the salesman just simply state "No, I'm sorry, we can't do it at that price".

When I was in (non-automotive) sales that's how it worked. But then again, we published price lists, stuck to those price lists and only deviated for quantity purchases, in pre-stated lot quantities.

All I'm asking for is that the salesman be empowered to know what he can and cannot do, and somewhat honest communication. You have so many models from the manufacturer on your lot. They come in certain packages, and have certain options for which there is an itemized price list. So you are doing basically the same dance over and over again.

[Matt Harwood]

I always wondered why buying cars more than almost everything else requires haggling. You don't haggle over a gallon of milk, do you? How about a bicycle? Or the price of a roof on your house? It costs what it costs or you buy a cheaper one from someone else. You don't tell the shoe store that you can get those Nikes from the store on the other end of the mall for $10 less and expect them to cut their price, do you? You don't go into a book store and insist that they knock a few bucks off the price of a hardback because you want a paperback but they don't have any.

Why are cars so unique that they breed this negotiation process? As much as I totally enjoy it, I can see from the dealer's perspective that it is not only a huge pain in the neck fraught with problems, but it makes it impossible to forecast income and define budgets since every single car sells for a different price.

Why is this? Is it the cost?

[Ron Green]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrpushbutton</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> They come in certain packages, and have certain options for which there is an itemized price list. </div></div>

And the sales personnel should spend some time to know the differences between the various models, engine / drive-train groups, available options and accessories, etc, etc. Many don't have a clue about what they are selling.

[Guest cardinal905]

I agree about the "dont know what they are selling" Go into any dealership today and see how many salesman are studying sales lit, or reading the paper. What about Saturn, when they came out they were--NO HAGGLE PRICING--So much for that.

[mrpushbutton]

The whole Saturn dream has died an undignified death. They are in the same gutter with the "bring in your trade-in and your wife and we'll dicker" full Cleveland bunch.

[Bill Stoneberg]

<span style="font-style: italic">You don't haggle over a gallon of milk, do you? How about a bicycle? Or the price of a roof on your house? </span>

Milk no, but I have haggled over the cost of a bicycle and a new roof along with tires, furniture and labor for painting my house. Its all part of living and trying to keep as much as you can. What's the worst they can do, say no ?

Heck, I even negotiated down closing costs on my last house during re-financing when they made a error in their favor and I had to come back. That was worth a couple of grand to me.

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You don't tell the shoe store that you can get those Nikes from the store on the other end of the mall for $10 less and expect them to cut their price, do you? </div></div>

I most absolutely would and in fact have done just that. They will usually match the price. If they don't I very politely thank them and walk to the other store.

BTW, Matt. I built a version of your rotesserie with a few changes to utilize some materials I had on hand. I got to use it for the first time last week. I was nervous as Hell at first but now I'm rolling my 56 Chrysler right over. What a pleasure to work on it with the rotisserie. Thanks......Bob

[Matt Harwood]

Glad to hear it, Bob. Nobody's dropped a car yet using it, although everyone seems to want me to figure out how to add hydraulic jacks to it, I don't know why. And nobody seems to be able to figure out for themselves how to bolt it to their cars--this seems particularly true of guys with Camaros...

Send me some photos!

I guess I like haggling over cars but feel like an idiot haggling over most other things. I was just wondering why a majority of people DO haggle over cars (it's practically mandatory) but not other stuff. There is a price on the car, why doesn't anyone accept this as the real price? Why did one price car deals fail so miserably? Why are car dealers above everyone else supposed to cut their profit? There's competition in every industry, not just the car industry.

Also, it's crazy how garage sales are haggling ground zero. I have a price of $5 on a functioning 25" color TV and someone wants to give me $2.50. WTF? Five bucks for a TV and it's too much?!?

Sure, some of my analogies were flawed, and you guys are absolutely right about certain things--a big screw up certainly does deserve consideration, Bill, and houses are one thing that I understand the necessity of the negotiation process very well. I was just trying to make a point about buying a car vs. buying other consumer goods. How about this: do you haggle over the price of a gallon of gas with the gas station owner? He sets the price, not the oil companies, and you can very easily go across the street to his competitors. Over the course of the year, this adds up to A LOT of money, right? I merely want to understand why cars are a unique situation.

Steve, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on it, since you're a former dealer and have a very clear picture of the other side of the desk.

PS: mrpushbutton, what's a "full Cleveland?" I'm a native Clevelander and never heard the term. I can only assume that it is something unsavory, because, well, I'll admit it, Cleveland is a total hole.

[R W Burgess]

Matt,

Shopping around?

Yes, I shop around for gas prices, not by asking them to lower their prices, but by driving 5 miles to the next county and saving 10 cents a gallon, yes, 10 cents a gallon!

We have three beaters (daily drivers) that we use. When the prices are down(when are they ever down?), we fill them all up. When the prices are up, we run each one until they are empty in sequence. One is empty now! The extremes I will go to, to be thrifty.

As far as purchasing new cars, I feel a little dirty too, after leaving a dealership. I think it's the fact that new cars are so expensive and I'm old enough to remember when they were reasonable in price. I realize that government mandates have increased the prices of automobiles, but when are they going to offer stripped models again, with just a radio and A/C?

That's all I need, period! I guess I must be getting old, as I'm getting a little paranoid about everything.

Wayne

[Restorer32]

It's partially because car salesmen generally work on commission. They want to haggle as much as you do. If the actual "take it or leave it" price were posted there would be no opportunity for "enhanced commissions". Just like at Hershey, some flea market sellers do not post prices, thinking they can charge what the market will bear at any given time. Send your wife to price a part, then go yourself and note the difference.

[Restorer32]

Dad negotiated the price of everything, including only shopping for clothes where the owner was also the salesman. Even negotiated the price of cancer treatment when he was diagnosed!

[mrpushbutton]

Matt-- The Full Cleveland

Coined as a fashion term, the Full Cleveland is a leisure suit (preferably powder blue) accessorized by a white patent leather (or plastic) belt and matching shoes. It's commonly found at senior center dances. (and car dealerships)

This has, by and large been replaced by double breasted suits (or three-button suits if the salesman is younger) and slicked-back hair (lots o'mousse) ala Charile Sheen in "wall street"

[R W Burgess]

Jeff,

Personally, I don't enjoy haggling. I think Ron or someone said it best, when they said, use the Internet for pricing. I bought my last new pickup that way. I knew what I was paying when I arrived to the dealership.

But, The dealer still sends me Christmas cards????? He's not family! Sorry, I bought it, but you're not my close friend.

Ummmm!!!!??? Is that the Bah Humbug thing in me??

Let me add something else here. I purchase my business equipment from the same dealer all of the time. I do consider him a friend, probably because he has never lied to me. When this gentleman retires, I'll have to find a new fellow. I don't relish the day!

There are so few salesmen today that make a person feel comfortable. What's that all about??

Wayne

[kevin1221]

I'll add my 2 cents worth on this topic. I have worked in an auto dealership for 34 years. The last 19 years, I've been at the same import dealership, and the last 15 years as the general manager. I started out in this business as a lot porter in 1974.

I think the auto business is unique to others since we often have to deal with trade ins. Very few other business take a used or worn out product back in trade. This automaticaly leads to hagling over price. Take the one price stores. If you have two dealers, selling the same product, both with "no haggle" policies. A customer shopping only price, should be able to tell which dealer is cheaper. Now add in a trade and the original "cheaper" dealer may now not have the best "difference price".

The public has for years felt they need to negotiate with dealers in order to get the best deal. Part of this is to blame on unscrupolous dealers over the past years. Today, with our invoice cost available to the public on the internet, the auto dealers are amoung the few retailers whose cost of product can be researched by the buyers. You can not go on-line and find out what Best Buy paid for their 50" TV, or Shell Oil for their gallon of gas, but you CAN find out invoice cost on any new vehicle you want to buy.

As Steve stated, gross profit has eroded greatly over the years for dealers. We have a 6% markup from invoice. That means that on a car we paid $30,000.00 for, if we sell for FULL STICKER, we make $1800.00. Obviously, unless its a model in extremely high demand, full sticker never happens.

Out of this, we must pay sales commission, manager salary, floorplan interest, rent, etc. Needless to say, almost all new car departments operate at a loss each month. Thank God for used, parts and service! Most new car franchises net about 1% of sales, which means that for every dollar we sell, the average store nets $0.01. That is after all expenses are paid for the month. In todays economy, many operate at a significant loss. There is no doubt that dealerships will continue to close, as many can not sustain long period of losses.

As to why sales people are not empowered to make final decisions on deals, our manufacturer offers a variety of incentives that vary based on many criteria. Take model "ABC". If you purchase the vehicle, there is a $500.00 incentive. If you lease with the factory finance company, there $650.00 incentive. If you lease with an outside finance company, there is a $400 incentive, but a high reisdual than the factory finance company. Also, if you currently own one of our models, there is another $300.00 incentive. This type of pricing structure makes it impossible for a salesman to know all of the variables. We actually keep a 3 ring binder of all current programs at the sales manager's desk, and adjust for them monthly, as they change.

The auto dealership scenario has changed drastically over the last 10 years and unfortuneately, we will see continued consolidation. Many of the "Mom & Pop" stores will either close or sell out to large public companies, as they can opereate under great economies of scale. They can have one accounting office for 8-10 stores, get better buys on advertising due to larger volume, and pay lower floor-plan interest due to volume.

I work in a privately owned dealership, under the current ownership for 37 years. My two closest same brand competitors are large mega-group owned stores. Hopefully, we can hold on until the owner and myself are ready to retire in 10-15 years.

Sorry for the rambling, but thought I's share some insite to the workings of the dealership business.

[R W Burgess]

Thank you Kevin.

I've seen this consolation situation years ago in the farm equipment business and I feel your pain. All of those figures you posted just gave me a headache though.

Now, I have another reason to not want to buy a new car!

Good luck to you!

Wayne

[Bhigdog]

Matt, I'll send some pix to your email if I can't figure out how to post here. I did add hydraulics to mine because I plan to take it outside on slightly uneven ground and I want the car all the way down to lower it's CG until I have it level. Then I'll raise the body into the "twirl" position. It was a no brainer to bolt the body up. I just used the most forward and rear body mounts. Of course the 56 Chrysler is a frame type car. I also made a 4 foot long wrench to turn the body from one end. That way it's an easy one person job and I'm right next to the pivot shaft and can drop a lock pin right in.......Bob