Out of gas

[Joe in Canada]

First France and now Britain are going to ban the sale of new gas and diesel  powered cars by 2040. https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/britain-ban-sale-diesel-gasoline-104618520.html      How is that going to effect our hobby seeing that is only 23 years away. The oldest driver on the Vintage tour last week was 95 so with a bit of luck hopefully I will still be around needing gas for my car. I am sure other country's will follow suit and then it will only take a few years for the others to rust and break down then scraped. After this all happens will we be scrambling looking for a gas station that sells gas never mind trying to find pure gas or am I a pessimist? 

[60FlatTop]

I might switch mine to run on whatever the hybrid cars use when they are not on electric.

 

There are still a number of horse drawn vehicles in western New York. I have not seen regulations requiring diapers on the horses. I should be able to follow then with my little carbon footprint. I will probably even leave a tire print.

 

Personally, I went through all this with refrigerants in the 1980's and 1990's. Exploitation by the media to sell their wares "like a flock of seagulls on the beach". Ah, the beauty of a perfect metaphor.

 

I am not a pessimist. The cynic will abide, for the good of mankind... as always.

Bernie

[EmTee]

6 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

I might switch mine to run on whatever the hybrid cars use when they are not on electric.

 

I'll convert mine to a Sterling engine using hot air as the working fluid and BS as the lubricant.  Those are two things that the US Congress will never outlaw. 

[padgett]

Well sorta: hybrids are apparently OK. Elephant in room is whether the electric grids in those countries can support millions of new loads.

[EmTee]

3 minutes ago, padgett said:

Elephant in room is whether the electric grids in those countries can support millions of new loads.

 

Just kick'n the carbon footprint 'can'... 

[Joe in Canada]

I had better wake up I never seen the other post on the same issue. So if you want to delete this tread is fine with me.

[Guest Skyking]

I'm glad I'm 71!!!!!

[R W Burgess]

13 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

I had better wake up I never seen the other post on the same issue. So if you want to delete this tread is fine with me.

*

*

Let it ride Joe. The other tread was too serious, worrying about something that will not effect us in our lifetime. 

[Roger Zimmermann]

Usually the soup is not eaten as hot as when it was cooked. (I don't know if there is a similar expression in English!)

Edited July 27, 2017 by Roger Zimmermann (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

34 minutes ago, Roger Zimmermann said:

Usually the soup is not eaten as hot as when it was cooked. (I don't know if there is a similar expression in English!)

 

It translates that there will be some slack in the final regulations. Around here restaurants have a big pot of boiling soup in the kitchen and store the plates outside in a frozen alley.

When the source is news media, they have learned that only bad news sells, the worse the better, always throw out the horror story. It sells.

 

To the topic, and my earlier post, what will "they" allow the hybrid to run on? And military will always be exempt. Fuel will be there. And invention will spawn better fuels.

 

Here, in the US, one can write a news story about upcoming and extended regulations on nearly anything. Some western states have figured out how the put a penalty tax on residential solar power. Yep, taxing sunshine.

 

Every regulation carries a financial penalty, the primary goal is income. In a receding economy fines replace taxes. Regulations are easy to get for environmental causes.

Between 1940 and 1993 540 megaton of nuclear tests have set explosions. In the 1980's "they" pointed at the tailpipe on my truck and said it was bad. Well, if you broke it you gotta blame someone. You can find the exact environmental damage of a 6 liter Escalade in a minute. Try to find the damage from a 50 megaton nuclear explosion. The last one "caused no environmental damage" according to news. But no gasoline will be sold in the future!

 

Oh, here in a night picture of the place where all our regulations come from.

 

Think anyone knows where a light switch or two might be? I didn't know so many were on the night shift.

Bernie

 

[Joe in Canada]

You can always switch over to propane and if you have an early speedster the tank will blend right in.

[Mark Gregory]

Bernie the comment about the refrigerants ties in with the fridges from the 1980's . My brother in law fixes appliances he says those old units last long about 20 years on average than the new ones about 8 years . If you calculate all the energy making the new appliances off shore loading them on to trucks and boats then doing the same thing on the west coast and shipping them across the USA how much energy did you really save ? Compared to an new appliance that is only going to last a few years .

Edited July 27, 2017 by Mark Gregory (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

19 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

First France and now Britain are going to ban the sale of new gas and diesel  powered cars by 2040. https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/britain-ban-sale-diesel-gasoline-104618520.html      How is that going to effect our hobby seeing that is only 23 years away. The oldest driver on the Vintage tour last week was 95 so with a bit of luck hopefully I will still be around needing gas for my car. I am sure other country's will follow suit and then it will only take a few years for the others to rust and break down then scraped. After this all happens will we be scrambling looking for a gas station that sells gas never mind trying to find pure gas or am I a pessimist? 

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

19 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

After this all happens will we be scrambling looking for a gas station that sells gas never mind trying to find pure gas or am I a pessimist? 

 

The article says those countries want electric and hybrid cars

to replace gasoline-only cars and vans.  Don't worry, Joe, 

because hybrid cars require GASOLINE.  There will therefore

be gasoline filling stations for the millions of cars.

 

Note that the article does not address trucks.  The government

isn't apparently going to force hybrid and electric drivetrains

on semi-truck drivers.  Maybe large pick-ups will be exempt too.

 

I feel sorry for people in those countries, because while those countries

are nominally democratic, it sounds like the government employees

are promoting their own ideas without a groundswell of demand

for them to do so.  It shouldn't work that way.  

[Joe in Canada]

34 minutes ago, Mark Gregory said:

Bernie the comment about the refrigerants ties in with the fridges from the 1980's . My brother in law fixes appliances he says those old units last long about 20 years on average than the new ones about 8 years . If you calculate all the energy making the new appliances off shore loading them on to trucks and boats then doing the same thing on the west coast and shipping them across the USA how much energy did you really save ? Compared to an new appliance that is only going to last a few years .

To go further on that issue the government complains about all the garbage that has to be dealt with.  If things were made to last as long as they did before free trade we would not have all the garbage created by substandard products coming from places like China. The average life span of a major appliance is now 7 years.  Sorry I am getting to political now.

[padgett]

An old political trick is to leak something that is so horrific that everyone panics. Then when the actual requirement/law is disclosed the sans coulottes are relieved instead of incensed. Have seen it many times.

[60FlatTop]

The new refrigeration equipment runs higher superheat temperatures and removes more sensible heat from the suction gas. That is what used to cool compressor windings. Ask him. The carbon footprint of a short lived efficient product compared to a long lived moderately efficient one fades in comparison to headlines reading "XXXXXXX jobs created!" sure building more short lived stuff.

 

All the "new" refrigerants existed in 1956. They just weren't used because they weren't as good. How many iterations of light bulbs have we seen in the past 40 years; throw away the old and buy the new one. They are so efficient you don't need to turn them off.

 

What is the carbon footprint of a Buick built in Korea, shipped to the west coast on an oil power ship, then trucked (diesel) across the US? Throw away that old inefficient one, "Create a job."

 

Go to your library and take out a copy of The Factory Man. Or buy one like I did.

https://www.amazon.com/Factory-Man-Furniture-Offshoring-American/dp/031623141X

 

The first few chapters are enlightening.

 

And it really is related to the future of car collecting. In many ways.

[DonMicheletti]

Just think.  They will have to reopen their coal mines and build coal fired electric plants so they can charge their electric cars.

 

Far thinking folks.

[padgett]

Or we could convert alla them obsolete nuclear WMDs into power plants.

 

Though I think solar is great, wish I could afford more. Even if it doesn't produce much power a coupla thousand square feet of panels would shade my roof.

[DAVES89]

9 hours ago, Skyking said:

I'm glad I'm 71!!!!!

I'm 60 and in 23 years I will be 83. The only day I can count on is the day I open my eyes to...

 2040 is a looooong way off. The "sky" hasn't fallen yet.

[Guest]

I would not worry about this. In 2040 both of those country's governments will be so heavily Arab influenced I doubt this ban will ever come to pass.

[plymouthcranbrook]

Plus the current administration in the USA is very much behind producing more oil and coal. Can't store it all...

[Guest Skyking]

What happened to the "likes"?

[padgett]

And the other Pachyderm is the issue of road taxes. Today a large portion of the price of gas (more in Europe) is taxes. There is no road tax on electricity. For example in the UK there is a tax of about $3/US gallon plus a VAT of 20% (0.60). Plus a " vehicle excise duty" I could not figure out. so lets say $3.75/gal

 

Now the interweb says a gallon of gas is equivalent to 36.6kwh of electricity (said it was really energy dense) so $3.75/36.6 ~ 10c/kwh or transferring the road tax to the electric would double the price per KWH. And then for many who do not need AC, another 16 KWH per day (earlier post) would mean their electric bill would quadrouple. US is much less, about 50c/gallon so only about 2c/KWH so triple is probably closer.

 

Doubt if many politicians are mentioning that.

 

ps am certain others will correct my numbers particularly as efficiencies are plugged in, is just a WAG but am sure those inside the beltway and their compatriots  in other lands have exact numbers.

Edited July 28, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

17 hours ago, padgett said:

Or we could convert alla them obsolete nuclear WMDs into power plants.

 

That stuff is gone. It was the first salvo into Baghdad in 2003.

 

Saved a lot of disposal money.

Bernie

[tcslr]

The article said no NEW gasoline-powered vehicles -  in those countries - after that date.  That implies a phased issue.  Current vehicles last say about 10-12 years.  That puts the 2039 models to say 2050 - if liquid-fuels can be completely eliminated by that time.

 

Regardless, there are a lot of technical challenges that need to be overcome for true electric vehicles to replace current liquid-fueled vehicle technology.  But technical solutions will be found and insurmountable obstacles conquered or bypassed.

 

The next big change ( I predict) in vehicles will be adoption of 24v systems - or higher.  Saves lots of copper weight ( and reduces cost) amoung other items. Followed closely by IOT integration.

 

Joe,  your and Lynn's car is truly lovely.  The Vintage was fun.  Anxious to come visit you in 2019!

 

Tom

[Xander Wildeisen]

It would be the restored cars that would be hit the hardest. The street rods/customs could just have their gas engines pulled and fitted with an electric motor, and still be a modern street rod/custom.

[padgett]

Well we have had fake 6-71 blowers for a long time. Maybe a hollowed out 502 with batteries inside and a 4L80 with an electric motor.

[kgreen]

I remember working on my 40 Buick in 1973 when I heard that gas was soon going to be a dollar a gallon.  Panic set in immediately, I only made a buck sixty five an hour, how would I ever afford to drive???  

 

I routinely read on this forum about the woes of our hobby and how young people are not engaged, what is going to happen to all these beautiful cars?  Lower budget series cars are parted out to keep high budget series cars in service, the young people that do have an interest in vintage cars modify them heavily enough that they are hardly recognizable.  When I pass, my kids won't want my cars, they all seem like minimalists.   The high tech component of modern cars leaves little room for repair and modification by shade tree mechanics and won't be restored in 25 years due to their complexity.

 

“The Stone Age did not end for lack of stone, and the Oil Age will end long before the world runs out of oil.”  Sheikh Zaki Yamani, a Saudi Arabian oil minister.

 

I'm guessing that we will deal with things like this as they happen, after all, the damn infernal combustion engine made life miserable for many with its' mass production.

 

I've also noticed when riding my horse into town, that somebody took all the watering troughs and hitching posts away...

[padgett]

Phone booths are gone also. I remember those daze of Sunoco 260 (high priced at 30c/gal) and Amoco touting "unleaded" (but advised an occasional leaded fillup).

 

Also remember driving from school in Michigan home to Florida for the Holidays with an extra 16 gal tank on the roof rack "just in case". Also traffic on I-75 was so bad that I got off and came down 441 instead.

 

AFAIR gas went to about 50c gal after '73 but didn't get to a dollar until after the second "crisis" in '79. Seems like I was paying $1.12 for leaded premium in '85 (and was just $1.99 for 87 pon recently so when you adjust for about 30 years of inflation we aren't doing that bad).

 

I just keep remembering the old political trick of panicking the voters with predictions so horrific that what they really wanted but no-one would permit initially seems like a relief and "well it wasn't so bad".

 

Bottom line: we always overreact and the politicos count on that.

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, kgreen said:

Lower budget series cars are parted out to keep high budget series cars in service,

 

I think a lot of Cord sedans, Packard sedans, even Model A's and T's went out in parts from that line of thinking in the 1960's That was the "wisdom" I remember "Sonny, don't waste you time on a closed car. That one you are looking at is just junk and not worth your time."

If it was a desirable car, but really bad it was deemed a good car to make a hot rod out of. "Never make a hot rod out of a good car." Junk was fine, though.

 

Sounds like a cycle coming around.

Bernie

 

 

Edited July 30, 2017 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[capngrog]

On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 10:01 AM, padgett said:

And the other Pachyderm is the issue of road taxes. Today a large portion of the price of gas (more in Europe) is taxes. There is no road tax on electricity. For example in the UK there is a tax of about $3/US gallon plus a VAT of 20% (0.60). Plus a " vehicle excise duty" I could not figure out. so lets say $3.75/gal

 

Even with today's technology, it would be fairly easy to place a meter on all "certified" charging stations, whether located in private homes or public electric vehicle service areas.  Of course, the certification would involve a certifying government agency, which would charge for that service, and so on ...  The "certified" charging stations could be fitted with transmitters (like some existing electric meters) arranged to send all charger use data to some billing entity, be it a private utility or some government agency.  If to a private utility, taxes would be paid to the government based upon the amount of power used to re-charge an electric vehicle's battery.  I'm sure that "The Government" will find a way to squeeze a road use tax or electric power use tax out of owners of electric vehicles.

 

It's a brave new world indeed.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[padgett]

All I'm trying to say is that a ban on ICE (which does not seem to include hybrids) is a PBI (partly baked idea ) at best and a LOT more thought needs to go into the ramifications. OTOH is a typical political flyer to see just how loud the sheep will bleat.

[Ronnie]

4 hours ago, capngrog said:

I'm sure that "The Government" will find a way to squeeze a road use tax or electric power use tax out of owners of electric vehicles.

 

The state of Tennessee just tacked on a $100 fee on top of the normal $29 (up $5 from last year) registration fee to help offset them not paying any gasoline tax. It is part of the "Improve ACT" to help pay for road and bridge repairs. The tax on gas also will go up 6 cents per gallon.