Station Wagon vs. Woody

[TAKerry]

I was watching an old movie the other night, and they said something to the effect of 'take the station wagon' in reference to what car they were going to use. The movie was late 40's and it looked like maybe a town and country sedan? A big 4 door sedan woody. I have always thought of a station wagon as well.......a wagon and not a sedan with trunk. I would have to assume back in the day the term 'Woody' would not have been used to identify a wood trim auto. Also assuming that the wood trimmed car being called a station wagon would harken back to the days of the depot hack? Any insight on this?

[mrspeedyt]

true.

[30DodgePanel]

Here's what I found out regarding Dodge Brothers.

Suburbans are often referred to (in period literature) as a Suburban for depot use meant to cater to those in the Suburbs and/or Countryside for trips into town or to the rail station.

 

JT Cantrell was the best known builder of these Suburban's for Dodge Brothers. 

I believe these are mostly referred to by the average American as a Woody, but the technical term is actually Suburban (with wooden body and roof). 

 

 

 

 

Then there's the difference between a Suburban and an Estate Car.

 

The "Estate Car" also called a Station Wagon, Depot and other terms by us Americans, were made with metal sides and sometimes had small handrails or cane work at the top of the doors and panels. Both types (Suburban and Estate) sometimes used the tailgate with hooks, but I've found tailgates are rare on Estate Cars. So to simplify, if you have no life (like me) and dig a lot deeper you'll find the term Estate Car was mostly used in England while we Americans began using the terms Station Wagon and Woody to describe these vehicles, but I think we started using those terms because of some of the advertising.

 

H.H. Babcock was a prominent builder that used the term Estate Car or Estate Body for the Dodge Brothers.

It should be noted that the Babcock name is of English origin and it is my belief that the term Estate Car was carried over as proper english. As you can see in this next ad the term "suburban" and "station" are referred to describe the Estate Car so again I believe because they were advertised as such we began using those terms to describe these types of vehicles with wood bodies or wood trim. 

 

 

 

 

Hoover were another one of those special body builders at this time who built Estate Bodies for Dodge Brothers.

Notice the subtle differences between the two builders (Babcock Estate Cars above and Hoover Estate Body below) I.E. iron top supports, door handles and other features.

 

 

Then  there's a Babcock Estate Body described in the article as an "Estate or Depot" making it quite a soup of mixed terminology. 

Note this ad describes the car as a step up from the cheap "wooden suburban". 
Babcock's way of taking shots at Cantrell and other builders of the era?

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, Ford circles seem to label some of their early Suburban's as Depot Hacks, not sure about other manufacturers...

[Tom Boehm]

In the beginning, a station wagon was a wood bodied vehicle used to transport tourists and their luggage from the train station to a resort or estate. They had 2 or 4 doors and a tailgate. The wood was structural, not just applied trim. After WWII, Chrysler and Ford strayed from this tradition by producing wood bodied vehicles that were not station wagons. The Ford Sportsman and the Chrysler Town and Country had trunklids like regular cars. The character in the movie may  have referred to the wood bodied sedan as a station wagon but in my opinion it was not. I guess it is an easy mistake to make. Sportsman and Town and Country were relatively low production vehicles. The vast majority of wood bodied vehicles were station wagons. I wasn't alive then but it seems to me the term "woodie' or "woody" did not come about until surfers started using station wagons in the 60's. 

 

Again, my opinion is the name of the body style is station wagon. "estate car" and "suburban" were terms used by individual companies in advertising to market their custom wood station wagon bodies on chassis made by another company. This is further clouded because in 1935, Chevrolet started selling a metal bodied station wagon they called a Suburban. 

 

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

The movie was late 40's and it looked like maybe a town and country sedan? A big 4 door sedan woody. I have always thought of a station wagon as well.......a wagon and not a sedan with trunk. I would have to assume back in the day the term 'Woody' would not have been used to identify a wood trim auto. Also assuming that the wood trimmed car being called a station wagon would harken back to the days of the depot hack? Any insight on this?

The Chrysler Town & country was made in sedans and convertibles.

 

[Tom Boehm]

All of these terms are hazy so nobody is wrong here. I would call the cars in the pictures posted by 30dodgepanel "depot hacks". I think a depot hack is the earliest version of a station wagon with an open lightweight body.  

Edited June 20 by Tom Boehm (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

3 hours ago, TAKerry said:

I was watching an old movie the other night, and they said something to the effect of 'take the station wagon' in reference to what car they were going to use. The movie was late 40's and it looked like maybe a town and country sedan? A big 4 door sedan woody. I have always thought of a station wagon as well.......a wagon and not a sedan with trunk. I would have to assume back in the day the term 'Woody' would not have been used to identify a wood trim auto. Also assuming that the wood trimmed car being called a station wagon would harken back to the days of the depot hack? Any insight on this?

For some reason Chrysler Town and Country wagons did show up in a lot of movies in the early forties. Maybe the script called for a station wagon but someone substituted a T&C sedan?

[Shootey]

Buick had deals with the Hollywood studios in the early 1940’s. The 1940 and 1941 Buick Estate Wagons appear in several early 1940s movies as do other Buick models. 

[kgreen]

Then again, what one man said under the glare of lights and pressure of a director that was rolling film could have been a slight mistake.  Thanks for the treatise Mr. 30DogdePanel. 

[30DodgePanel]

11 hours ago, Tom Boehm said:

In the beginning, a station wagon was a wood bodied vehicle used to transport tourists and their luggage from the train station to a resort or estate.

Interesting, but you know some of us have to question this. What is your beginning point and is this factual or opinion?

I do understand where the premise of station wagon may have come from (prior to automobiles wagons would transport customers to the train stations) so maybe that is your beginning point?

 

Where in the specs does it mention station wagon, depot or hack? With all due respect it doesn't mention station wagon anywhere. 

 

 

I've certainly not studied the very "beginning" of the entire auto industry and always hoping to learn something new, but I'm trying to put forth facts to hopefully clear up some of this confusion and stand by what I've presented. 

Can you please provide any documents showing these were called "station wagons" or woodies originally prior to being called estate, or suburbans?

I've seen confidential bulletins that say Estate Car "or station wagon" and Suburban "or station wagon",  but I've never found anything that referred to them as station wagons originally, it's always the opposite, at least not any proof of that in the Dodge Brothers era as evidenced by what I've provided. Maybe you're referring to something prior to 1914 for other manufacturers (in the beginning)? What is your beginning point btw? Again, very interesting topic that I hope remains factually based. 

 

I can certainly appreciate opinions, we all have them, but I've seen no proof of them being called station wagons or woodies originally in regards to anything Dodge Brothers related, so if you can show us it was as you say for other manufacturers and builders (or DB for that matter) I'd like to see it so I can be corrected. I treat research with a great deal of respect and try to put forth facts and add my opinion at times, but I make sure I draw a distinction between the two. For instance,  I realize I made note of my "beliefs" of where the terms came from in my prior post, but the ads clearly show proof of what they were called. Maybe others like @Walt G can chime in to help clear things up and/or correct me also.

 

 

10 hours ago, Tom Boehm said:

All of these terms are hazy so nobody is wrong here. I would call the cars in the pictures posted by 30dodgepanel "depot hacks". I think a depot hack is the earliest version of a station wagon with an open lightweight body.  

 

Respectfully, I believe TAKerry was originally hoping for answers of why it's called by so many things. I do believe no one is wrong here also, but there has to be some factual truth to all this terminology. The terms are hazy, but I would argue that's simply because we've become lazy in our attempts to clarify these terms as so many have given opinions in place of facts over the years and it seems we're naturally drawn to continue on that path,  but I hope we stay the course in this discussion based on a primary foundation of facts and not solely opinion or conjecture.

 

Again, I appreciate opinion that the Dodge Brothers cars should be called depot hacks and I'm not offended when folks call them by that, I'm simply pointing out that I don't agree that the terminology was ever used in labeling them as such, as the company ads clearly called them Suburban and Estate Cars and not Station Wagons, or Depot Hacks. Yes they made mention in the descriptions in article form of them being for depot use or station wagons but they never called them that from what I've found. As I mentioned, Ford circles refer to them as hacks or depot hacks. Just because current post 1930 circles used those terms doesn't make it factual. In my opinion until proven otherwise.

 

What ever we call them, we all know what we're talking about for the most part and that's all that matters really.

Edited June 20 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

In regard to the original question: The Chrysler "station wagon" in the movie may have been a prewar Town and Country, 1941 or 1942. Those were more station wagon-like than the postwar cars, yet still quite "sedan" looking. They carried nine passengers. Not a wagon like the true station wagons of earlier times (depot hack, estate wagon, etc.), as there was still a trunk area.

[West Peterson]

1 hour ago, 30DodgePanel said:

Interesting, but you know some of us have to question this. What is your beginning point and is this factual or opinion?

I do understand where the premise of station wagon may have come from (prior to automobiles wagons would transport customers to the train stations) so maybe that is your beginning point?

 

Where in the specs does it mention station wagon, depot or hack? With all due respect it doesn't mention station wagon anywhere. 

 

They were generically called several things regardless of the builder. What individual marques or coach builders called them is not the subject of this thread. 

[West Peterson]

13 hours ago, TAKerry said:

I was watching an old movie the other night, and they said something to the effect of 'take the station wagon' in reference to what car they were going to use. The movie was late 40's and it looked like maybe a town and country sedan? A big 4 door sedan woody. I have always thought of a station wagon as well.......a wagon and not a sedan with trunk. I would have to assume back in the day the term 'Woody' would not have been used to identify a wood trim auto. Also assuming that the wood trimmed car being called a station wagon would harken back to the days of the depot hack? Any insight on this?

 

TAKerry. Can you tell us the name of the movie, or provide a screen shot of the car?

[pont35cpe]

Now they`re called SUV`s, still a station wagon, no matter what you call it.

[Tom Boehm]

OK, Everything I said is opinion based on many years of reading everything I can find about wood bodied cars. I say opinion because there are so many exceptions that all these terms are hazy. In the above post, West Peterson brought up the 1941 and 1942 Chrysler Town and Country. Those are exceptions. Those two T&C are very rare. That is why I did not mention them in my original post. They easily could have been what was in the movie. 

 

This is a good thread and everybody has a valid point. I read so much about wood bodied cars because the subject is so hazy. 

Edited June 20 by Tom Boehm (see edit history)

[Scott Bonesteel]

6 hours ago, kgreen said:

Then again, what one man said under the glare of lights and pressure of a director that was rolling film could have been a slight mistake.  Thanks for the treatise Mr. 30DogdePanel. 

Who knows what went into the cars, woodies or otherwise, that end up in films.  For example, this 34 Plymouth, one of only 34 built, shows up in the Bette Davis film 'Dark Victory'.  None of these are known to have survived.

[46 woodie]

Several companies started producing depot hacks on a "custom order only" basis in the early teens. The first production depot hack was produced by the Star Automobile Co. in 1923 with a body by Mengel of Louisville KY. Poor sales made the Star discontinue the line. After seeing the large amount of depot hacks around the Detroit area, both Edsel and Henry Ford realized there was a market for a "utility" vehicle other than a truck. In the fall of 1928 the Murray Body Co. delivered the first prototype Model A Station Wagon and a total of five prototypes were built before Ford started mass production of the 1929 "Station Wagon" as Ford called it. The surfer community started calling station wagons "Woodies" but that was for mostly vehicles produced from mid thirties on, I never heard anyone call a depot hack a "Woodie" but I'm sure some people do. The British call them Shooting Brakes. I use the term Station wagon to describe my car. Any wood bodied car is welcomed in the National Woodie Club, including "tin woodies".

[TAKerry]

5 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

TAKerry. Can you tell us the name of the movie, or provide a screen shot of the car?

Unfortunately I cannot. Most of the movies I watch are on TCM and I prefer 1930's era. I cannot remember what the movie was but I do know it was mid to late 40's. It may have been something related to  Topper, but that is just a guess thinking back to what I was watching. I usually try to pay more attention and am sorry for the lack of detail.

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, Scott Bonesteel said:

Who knows what went into the cars, woodies or otherwise, that end up in films.  For example, this 34 Plymouth, one of only 34 built, shows up in the Bette Davis film 'Dark Victory'.  None of these are known to have survived.

Maybe it's still parked in 20th Century Fox's backlot!!

 

Craig

[30DodgePanel]

9 hours ago, West Peterson said:

They were generically called several things regardless of the builder. What individual marques or coach builders called them is not the subject of this thread. 

 

I suppose I should delete my contributions, even though the OP alluded to the early depot hacks and the confusion around woodies? 

I thought some of the ads I posted would help clear things up and made it obvious that individual marques (DB as my example) called them by different names generically depending on the builder as you and I have both point out equally. Again, I only posted the examples because I didn't see any evidence of any other terms (in the Dodge Brothers world). See my prior post "I can certainly appreciate opinions, we all have them, but I've seen no proof of them being called station wagons or woodies originally in regards to anything Dodge Brothers related"

Sorry, I didn't realize the OP question was exclusive to one specific era of 1940s vehicle. My mistake.

I can delete it if you'd like, doesn't matter to me...

 

9 hours ago, Tom Boehm said:

This is a good thread and everybody has a valid point. I read so much about wood bodied cars because the subject is so hazy. 

I'm sure you have. Everytime I read anything about the subject I learn something new each time because of the many variations and terminologies along with how and when they were used. It did change per era, yet stayed the same in a round about way. Hazy is putting it mild in my opinion for what it's worth.

 

4 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

 I use the term Station wagon to describe my car. Any wood bodied car is welcomed in the National Woodie Club, including "tin woodies".

 

My panel has wood structure on the interior so am I allowed to cross the threshold? Or how about if I put cane work across the lower portion  

 

 

In all sincerity, it's encouraging that all wood bodied cars are welcomed.

 

[TAKerry]

OP was no specific to 40's era. That was the era of the program in which I heard the expression. 30 Dodge, I greatly appreciated your response. Thanks Again.

[30DodgePanel]

23 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Maybe it's still parked in 20th Century Fox's backlot!!

 

Craig

Hopefully she didn’t push it down a flight of stairs. 

[30DodgePanel]

This really doesn't discuss or debate the origins of the terminologies or explain the differences, but has some very interesting vehicles I thought some of you might want to see. Most are obviously European, but I thought his mixed terminologies of the many variations was intriguing. 

 

Once finished, make sure to follow up with the link to Episode 2

Enjoy.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 04:11 AM by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[George Cole]

Okay Kerry, I'm not trying to convolute your Station Wagon versus Woody thread any more than it already is, but I can't resist.  Always wanting to march to a different drummer, the Brits called woody wagons 'shooting brakes.'  Anyone have a clue where that name originated?  

[John_S_in_Penna]

19 minutes ago, George Cole said:

...the Brits called woody wagons 'shooting brakes.'  Anyone have a clue where that name originated?  

West Peterson may see your question and

give a good answer.  I recall that, long ago,

he did an analysis of that term.  He concluded

that the correct term is "shooting BREAK," not "brake."

[Sidemount33]

I believe it came out of the naming conventions around horse-drawn carriages, and was carried forward and adopted by auto manufacturers.

[rocketraider]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_(carriage)

 

A shooting brake/break was what you drove to a hunting party in the fields at your country pile. A station wagon was ideal for that. Room for passengers, guns and dogs.

 

I guess the American analogy to a shooting party is a tailgate party at a Southern university football game. I've heard more than a few Carolina alumni gripe about modern SUVs' lack of a proper tailgate to set the food out on. Meaning they have to load folding tables into said SUV along with everything else. But, whether you use the good dishes and glassware or Chinet plates and Toby Keith cups, a tailgate is an event in itself! The Brits enjoyed a good fancy picnic themselves and probably drove the shooting brake/break to the location.

[George Cole]

Do an internet search for 'Shooting Break Images.'  The only images which come up are of 'Shooting Brakes.'  Has the internet failed us again?

[Paul Dobbin]

Desoto also made them thru the late 1940's.   Packard did too and had real wood trim over metal woodgrained

door panels.

Edited Monday at 01:50 AM by Paul Dobbin
spilling errors (see edit history)

[hook]

Cantrell called them Suburban Body's.

[hook]

Whether Hunting or tailgating at a game, here's the one to have.

[30DodgePanel]

On 6/25/2024 at 9:57 AM, hook said:

Whether Hunting or tailgating at a game, here's the one to have.

 

Maybe,

 

or how about a woody town car?

1927 Rolland-Pilain B25 Six-seater Coup de Ville.

 

You can own it

1927 Roland - Hemmings

 

 

 

 

[TAKerry]

On 6/25/2024 at 12:57 PM, hook said:

Whether Hunting or tailgating at a game, here's the one to have.

 I would assume that the English term 'Shooting Brake' would be our equivalent of a station wagon? 

This is a nice car for what it is, decent interior but the overall exterior design does nothing for me. It looks like it is melting in place!

[hook]

8 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

 I would assume that the English term 'Shooting Brake' would be our equivalent of a station wagon? 

This is a nice car for what it is, decent interior but the overall exterior design does nothing for me. It looks like it is melting in place!

Keep a stiff upper lip TAKerry. It's not the looks that matter, it's the status of a Rolls/Royce!.....................................I think! 

Just picture for a moment enjoying refreshments from the back of this Shooting Break after a hard and strenuous morning shooting birds while your servants reload your many shotguns. Oh, the strain of holding your own gun!

[hook]

53 minutes ago, 30DodgePanel said:

 

Maybe,

 

or how about a woody town car?

1927 Rolland-Pilain B25 Six-seater Coup de Ville.

 

You can own it

1927 Roland - Hemmings

 

 

 

 

You could really impale yourself on that spare tire nut.

[8E45E]

20 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

 I would assume that the English term 'Shooting Brake' would be our equivalent of a station wagon? 

This is a nice car for what it is, decent interior but the overall exterior design does nothing for me. It looks like it is melting in place!

The interior of a brand new Cullinan can be ordered to look like that one in the photos through RR's design department.  Many have also criticized the outside appearance of the new Cullinan is too plain for price one pays to stand out from the SUV crowd.

 

Craig

[hook]

Here's a few that don't need water.

[46 woodie]

While we are on the subject of Woodie Station Wagons, "Woodies at the Seaport" is on Saturday, July 13th at the Mystic Seaport, in CT.  Should be about 30 wood bodied Station Wagons displayed. Sponsored by the Yankee Chapter of the National Woodie Club.

[rocketraider]

Will there be pictures?🙂

[hook]

On 6/19/2024 at 7:44 PM, TAKerry said:

I was watching an old movie the other night, and they said something to the effect of 'take the station wagon' in reference to what car they were going to use. The movie was late 40's and it looked like maybe a town and country sedan? A big 4 door sedan woody. I have always thought of a station wagon as well.......a wagon and not a sedan with trunk. I would have to assume back in the day the term 'Woody' would not have been used to identify a wood trim auto. Also assuming that the wood trimmed car being called a station wagon would harken back to the days of the depot hack? Any insight on this?

I don't think the term "Woody" was used until the late fifty's early sixties and the surfing crowd coined it with the Beach Boys/Jan & Dean surfing music. Just my thought.