Does any one on this site does sand casting of small parts for for vintage cars

[dodge28]

Does any one on this site does sand casting of small parts  for for vintage cars ? The  Reproduction fellow in Australia is retired and has left a vacuum in the hobby. 

[28 Chrysler]

Check out some U tube videos. If you can get by with pot metal or aluminum you can do it at home.

Don't get caught  using the kitchen stove and blender.

[dodge28]

28 Chrysler thank you. I was thinking about if any member is doing this thing as a hobby and charge potential customers  for services.  there are quite a bit of information on UTUBE.  I would like to learn how to do it . A friend from Australia just told me he tried it and it was a disaster. ( He suffers from arthritis  in his wrists.) Nothing wrong with that. It is the learning process. We learn from our mistakes. Experience cannot be bough at any price. I would like to attempt it myself but my hands shake a bit. I will be 88 on March 9 coming. I am hoping some young fellow on this forum will learn how to do it. It is sad the younger ones are shying away from learning the skills required to keep the hobby going.  

[Fordy]

My opinion is that 3d printing has advanced to the point where this is a more viable option than sand casting as once the 3d rendering is done there is no mould to make every time one needs to be done, no flash or sprues to trim off and minimal "finishing" as most holes only need threading where applicable and tolerances refined where needed.

I have parts done direct to metal (Al) and was surprised just how good they turn out. If I had better finances, it would be a good business to start up as it is currently "on the ground floor". For the things I have had done I redo these as one off "print to order" if somebody needs one. (so far, a total of 3 items for Hupps). The hardest part for me is doing the drawing and I have I guy who scans originals for me.

It won't be long and the local engineering workshops will probably be providing this service and do as I do and email the file to a printer for production.

Steve 

Edited February 12 by Fordy (see edit history)

[kings32]

Cat tail foundery in Pa has done lots of casting for me . Can get more info if anyone wants it Howard

[Bloo]

50 minutes ago, kings32 said:

Cat tail foundery in Pa has done lots of casting for me . Can get more info if anyone wants it Howard

Was this from patterns or lost wax or what? Do you make your own patterns or wax models? I think a lot of us stall at the "how do I get started?" part.

[nick8086]

I have not used them.. But here is a place.

 

You will have to rewind this one..

 

 

 

[Gary_Ash]

What is the part?  How big is it?  Do you have a pattern or a decent piece to use as a master?  What material does it need to be?  How much machining is requIred after casting? Where are you?

 

All these things determine which foundry - or 3D printing shop - will meet your needs. 

[dodge28]

Gary-Ash, good suggestions. 

[bryankazmer]

One additional question to Gary’s excellent ones.  What material do you think it needs to be and why?

[dodge28]

Bloo, you are probably aware the  reproductions co. which is a family operations in Australia have retired and no one is willing to continue it. Meyers Early Dodge is the agent for them in the US. I bought several door handles and other items from Cindy Meyers. If you go to the reproduction site , they reproduce parts for almost every pre war car. My 28 DB door handles in stainless steel (screw on escuchion) I just bought a key holder made by North/East Electric from Cinder Meyers. It is probably the last one on the shelf. I would consider having a spare. Originally it was pot metal. It is small enough to fit 4 at the same time in your shirt pocket. Experience has taut me any part that fits my car I find at flea markets I grab them. If not I will never see them again.   

[Henry Holt]

Small parts, fine detail, smooth finish and brass or bronze.

 

 

Thank you

Henry

[Rusty_OToole]

Try Mike and Neil Butters in Cobourg Ontario.  They specialize in one off, small castings especially Graham products but do other makes as well.

 

https://www.grahamownersclub.com/uploads/1/9/1/5/19154273/grahampartslist.pdf

 

These are only a few of the more common parts that people inquire about. If you do not see the part
you are looking for, there is a good change that we have it. By chance that we do not have a part and
you have your old original part, even BROKEN, we will invariably be able to make an excellent
reproduction. All of the parts are individually custom cast so please allow 8 to 10 weeks for delivery. For
price information or other information please contact us:
Michael or Neil Butters
1063 Ontario St
Cobourg, ON K9A 3C8
Canada
(905) 372-6926
e-mail:
nbutters@eagle.ca

Edited February 13 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

We have parts sand cast often.  Lot wax casting provides a better end product but costs quite a bit more than sand casting. 

[Gary_Ash]

I've shown this photo before in discussions of 3D printing on the forum, but here it is again.  These parts were 3D printed in metal from a CAD file.  The metal is stainless steel infused with bronze, pretty strong.  The parts were tumble polished after printing.  Note the little domes have a thin wall and a number of vent holes, demonstrates the capability of the process, cost was about $25 each.  For a few small parts, this is an economical way to go, but you do need the CAD file.  The larger arm was also 3D printed direct-to-metal, cost about $100.  I have used http://i.materialise.com for this work.  Production time is typically 10-14 days.

 

[Restorer32]

Very nice but what did the cad file cost?  Noone ever seems to include that.

[Gary_Ash]

1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

Very nice but what did the cad file cost?  No one ever seems to include that.

 

I have the CAD software, purchased as a tool for my consulting work, was very useful for designing and building my Studebaker Indy car replica.  So, the CAD file for the 3D printed parts took a couple hours of my time but no additional cash outlay.  Of course, you wouldn't want to pay my consulting rates.  😁

 

I use TurboCAD Pro, pricey if not for business, but their DesignCAD 3D Max is $199 and will do what most people would need.  If you took mechanical drawing in high school or later, it's not too bad to learn.  There is a learning curve, like most skills.  

[Restorer32]

Once again we can't get an accurate estimate for the cad file if we had to pay an outfit to produce it. No offense to Gary.  What would a company that does cad files charge to make a file for an obscure part using an original for which no prints exist?

[drhach]

44 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Once again we can't get an accurate estimate for the cad file if we had to pay an outfit to produce it. No offense to Gary.  What would a company that does cad files charge to make a file for an obscure part using an original for which no prints exist?

Download Fusion 360. It's free for hobbyists. They ask that you not use it to make money and there's some functionality that you don't have access to with the free version. But I personally haven't felt the need for any of it. From your drawings you can generate a file that can be read by anyone in any industry that uses this stuff. Yes, there is a learning curve but the skills translate to other projects, so it's hardly wasted effort. 

 

Regards, Dan

Edited February 14 by drhach (see edit history)

[mechanician]

51 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Once again we can't get an accurate estimate for the cad file if we had to pay an outfit to produce it. No offense to Gary.  What would a company that does cad files charge to make a file for an obscure part using an original for which no prints exist?

It would be impossible to say without seeing the specific parts, it’s like saying what would it cost to restore my car without showing the car. It would also be more expensive for all the same reasons that other farmed out jobs are, the drawing consultant would have some responsibility in the event things didn’t work out…

 

A machine called a white light (or blue light) scanner can capture the geometry, in industry this is often used to reverse engineer complicated things like turbine blades. Not sure if the hobbyist market has caught up yet but it will eventually.

 

In the meantime, your cheapest option, if you don’t want to do it yourself, would be to find an engineering student, it would probably cost between a case of beer and a keg, depending on complexity.

[mechanician]

Also, to answer the originally posed question, investment casting might give you a better result.  Check out these guys, friends have used them with good success to replicate small brass era parts:

 

http://www.hildebrandesigns.com/

[Terry Harper]

1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

Once again we can't get an accurate estimate for the cad file if we had to pay an outfit to produce it. No offense to Gary.  What would a company that does cad files charge to make a file for an obscure part using an original for which no prints exist?

Contact a person or firm and get an estimate.

 

Its impossible to provide an estimate without seeing the actual part or understanding the desired outcome or deliverables. Every part is different - some complex, some simple etc. Could you entice an engineering student to do the work? Probably. Would that work include not just the CAD model but also a set of shop drawings including GD&T and fits and tolerances? Probably not. However, if the part requires machining that would be a must to maintain design intent. (i.e. how the component interfaces with other components)

 

If your willing to pay for quality work don't be surprised if the CAD work is the most expensive part of the project.... by far.

 

As for 3D scanning: Scan the part, reverse engineer (i.e. create a optimized model) in this instance, since the 3D scanner cannot capture internal features and geometry, a considerable amount of time will be spent working in Solidworks to reverse engineer and create those optimized models followed by determining fits and calculating tolerances to be included in the shop drawings -  takes time and money as well. You cannot short cut that unless you can do it yourself.

 

 

Merged and aligned scans

 

Final output from scanner. Next step reverse engineering in Solidworks or other CAD program.

 

 

 

 

[Restorer32]

57 minutes ago, mechanician said:

Also, to answer the originally posed question, investment casting might give you a better result.  Check out these guys, friends have used them with good success to repx castings and have always been very happy with their work.licate small brass era part

http://www.hildebrandesigns.com/

We have used Hildebrand for lost wax castings and have been very happy with their work.

[Restorer32]

My point is, at this stage of the game, while 3D printing is fascinating technology and is the wave of the future, in many instances there are less expensive ways to produce the part you need, be it sand casting or lost wax. 

[Gary_Ash]

@dodge28  We still haven’t seen the part you want to copy. I looked on the Myers Early Dodge website and on the VCR web site, didn’t see a “key holder” for a Dodge. As the various posters have pointed out, there are lots of ways to skin this cat but some specifics might help to narrow the options.  So far, it’s like the old story of the group of blind men describing the elephant they are all touching.   See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

[dodge28]

Gary-Ash, go to Meyers Early Dodge Parts, click on  Ignition, scroll down to about midway , look for 6 cylinder coil holder under dash, $205 , Just below that is the item in question, Key to coil holder 6 cylinder $120.  View the item. Let me know if you find it

[Restorer32]

Assume I need a part, smaller than my hand, that goes on a car of which only one exists so there is no market for additional pieces.  Also assume I have the original but it is not salvageable but is good for a pattern.  The part is not critical to the operation of the vehicle so breakage is not a concern.  What would be the total cost for a one off part in bronze? Surely someone can give a rough estimate for the cad cam part.  And No, I do not need 

[Restorer32]

And No, I do not actually need the part in question.  Sorry, fat fingers.

[Terry Harper]

5 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

My point is, at this stage of the game, while 3D printing is fascinating technology and is the wave of the future, in many instances there are less expensive ways to produce the part you need, be it sand casting or lost wax. 

Yes, you are absolutely correct! Its a wonderful tool yet like any tool, there are times when its a great advantage and other times when other methods are better suited. Its all about choosing the right tool for the specific job.

 

 

Edited February 14 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[jp1gt]

I thought that 3D was the promised land. The problem is the cost. 500.00 for the file and 500.00 for the printing. Even tho the bronze casting place is pretty far away the cost difference is much better. If someone is doing things in their back yard at a price close to bronze let me know! I still have things to make.

[Gary_Ash]

@Restorer32 wanted to know what it would cost to make one part.  I went to the Myers web site, found the "key to coil holder", downloaded the photo.  I don't really know what the actual size is but I guessed that it's about 2 inches ear-to-ear and maybe 1.25" high.  I spent about an hour, maybe a little more, making a 3D model of the part in TurboCAD.  I think I got most of the features, even if they are not exactly the right size.  I saved the CAD model in .STL format and uploaded it to https://i.materialise.com.  I got an instant quote for the part in bronze-infused stainless steel, tumble polished, for $86.39.  The same part in 3D printed plastic is about $17.  I could 3D print the part in PLA plastic on my own 3D printer (Creality Ender 3, $170 on Amazon) for about $1 worth of material and a 65 minutes machine time.  Myers wants $120 for the part.

 

Part on Myers website                                                                   My 3D model

   

[Henry Holt]

Gary,

 

Great job

[Terry Harper]

2 hours ago, Gary_Ash said:

@Restorer32 wanted to know what it would cost to make one part.  I went to the Myers web site, found the "key to coil holder", downloaded the photo.  I don't really know what the actual size is but I guessed that it's about 2 inches ear-to-ear and maybe 1.25" high.  I spent about an hour, maybe a little more, making a 3D model of the part in TurboCAD.  I think I got most of the features, even if they are not exactly the right size.  I saved the CAD model in .STL format and uploaded it to https://i.materialise.com.  I got an instant quote for the part in bronze-infused stainless steel, tumble polished, for $86.39.  The same part in 3D printed plastic is about $17.  I could 3D print the part in PLA plastic on my own 3D printer (Creality Ender 3, $170 on Amazon) for about $1 worth of material and a 65 minutes machine time.  Myers wants $120 for the part.

 

 

Gary,

Don’t forget that unless they can do the CAD work themselves, you need to include your time and overhead in the equation.

[Gary_Ash]

Yes, Terry, but as you well know, if you can sketch it with paper and pencil, you can learn CAD. Even old dogs can learn new tricks!  No one should bitch about paying the price for other folks to do the work if they are not willing to invest time in learning how to do new things. If you can’t sketch it on paper, then the problem is larger. 

[Terry Harper]

42 minutes ago, Gary_Ash said:

Yes, Terry, but as you well know, if you can sketch it with paper and pencil, you can learn CAD. Even old dogs can learn new tricks!  No one should bitch about paying the price for other folks to do the work if they are not willing to invest time in learning how to do new things. If you can’t sketch it on paper, then the problem is larger. 

That I do know..

Currently have a lab full of students learning Solidworks, a bit of Fusion 360, Revit and Infraworks..

 

 

[dodge28]

Gary-Ash, what it is about the blind describing the elephant by feel ?

You do not  have to be sarcastic. This is not the place for it.

Harry

Toronto ,Canada

[mechanician]

12 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

My point is, at this stage of the game, while 3D printing is fascinating technology and is the wave of the future, in many instances there are less expensive ways to produce the part you need, be it sand casting or lost wax. 

I agree. The two places were I see that 3D is useful is if you don’t have a sample of the part to begin with (ie. Reconstructing from photos etc) and also where there are geometries that can not be made by any other process. The latter doesn’t matter for restorations since by definition the part being restored had to have been originally made by another process. For certain applications in things like nozzles, acoustics, etc it does enable designs that are not otherwise feasible.

 

It may not even be the wave of the future, it is a slow, energy intensive process and probably always will be…

[JV Puleo]

I've found it very useful in a couple of instances but I've had Gary's help in all of them. I have looked into getting a CAD program. I'm certain I could learn to operate it but thus far none that I've looked at are compatible with my old Mac computers so it wouldn't be just a program, I'd have to get a PC – which operates quite differently – and learn that as well. As noted here, I can nearly always find a simpler and less expensive way of doing something...or at least less expensive. I'm not sure my solutions are ever simple😄.

 

I especially like the "lost PLA" process where a 3D printed piece is used in the same way lost wax is. This produces a really superior part that requires a minimum of machining. Another process I've heard of is 3D printed sand molds. The foundry next door gets some from one of their customers and tell me it works extremely well. I can see this being a godsend for making things like cylinder jugs for early cars where finding a good one is impossible and the cost of traditional patterns would be excessive for the very small number of castings. They would still need complicated machining but that is doable, if not easy, on old machines.

 

I will probably learn this eventually but likely not until it's absolutely needed...

[ply33]

31 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

. . . but thus far none that I've looked at are compatible with my old Mac computers . . .

What vintage Mac do you have?

 

Just poking around, it looks like FreeCAD can run on MacOS 10.12 Sierra. And MacOS 10.12 Sierra can run on late-2009 to mid-2010 Mac computers which are pretty old in computer years.

 

OpenSCAD can run on an even older version of MacOS but it looks like it may be more of a progammer's hacking tool than something for people just wanting to design parts.

 

I have no experience with either of those. The only CAD program I had was back in the Pre-MacOS X days running on a PowerPC Mac from a company now defunct. I guess I ought to see what it takes to learn enough of a CAD program to try printing some parts. But I seem to keep busy enough with other projects.

[prewarnut]

One thing to keep in mind is that if one is using one of these CAD programs it is important to know the type of file it will produce (if one is then submitting to a commercial operation to fabricate outside of making a plastic 3-D printed object at home which is to be submitted for lost wax, etc). I spent hours on one project only to find I would have to start over again on different software as the company needed it in a different format. Recently, I have used NanoCAD for 2-D renderings (laser cutting of sheet/plate, openings, filigree) and have had commercial laser cutting done for me but the program will do 3-D as well. It is free to download up to version 5. It is now up to version 21 or so but the early version is still just as good and can allow a newcomer to attempt this before deciding to pay the outlay or cost of software for a later version.