Cam and Lifter failures – why are they increasing??

[Littlestown Mike]

I hear of far more cam or lifter failures recently than ever before. I was discussing this with the owner of the machine shop who is doing the work on my Falcon six and he verified it. In his experience, cam and lifter failures became more of a problem since Covid. Maybe there is no relation to Covid, but maybe it is just a convenient way to mark the time

 

He related several engines he has build using flat tappet cams with cams and lifters coming from well-known US manufacturers all failed within 12 minutes on the dyno. Its not EVERY engine, but a significant percentage that fail.  His response has been to recommend roller cams.

 

He also noted that he only buys all his parts from US distributors with whom he has worked for 40 years. Recently, some cams and lifter sets come in plain white boxes with no markings at all. He has asked his suppliers and they tell him that is the way they come, now. He suggested that any parts that come in plain white unmarked boxes be refused / not accepted and returned.

 

I asked him about using zinc-rich oil and he agreed, but still he sees failures.

 

He says old parts in good shape are better than new. I told him I will be using OEM springs – they all tested to meet the FSM specs and he said that would work in my favor. Accept that the engine will never spin over 4,500-5,000 rpm and I should be better off.

 

So, here i am asking if that fits with all your experience? My machine shop has been doing this work for over 40 years – he build some rare and exotic stuff and some rare antiques, so don't just blame him. I am asking about your experience.

[edinmass]

Have him calibrate his valve spring tester... ask me how I know. OurS was reading way off... reading about 50 percent light. We ate four engines before we figured it out. 

Edited January 17 by edinmass (see edit history)

[TTR]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

Have him calibrate his valve spring tester... 

Perhaps excessive approach, but my machine shop’s cylinder head guy uses two to test each and I check them all with mine during final assembly.

 

Also, many of the well known lifter manufacturers now get theirs from same or similar sources in C***a or T****n as those in plain white boxes or “Brown & Sharpe”, “Starrett,” or “Tesa” precision measuring equipment/tools, etc., etc., etc.

 

[edinmass]

3 hours ago, TTR said:

Perhaps excessive approach, but my machine shop’s cylinder head guy uses two to test each and I check them all with mine during final assembly.

 

Also, many of the well known lifter manufacturers now get theirs from same or similar sources in C***a or T****n as those in plain white boxes or “Brown & Sharpe”, “Starrett,” or “Tesa” precision measuring equipment/tools, etc., etc., etc.

 

 

Today you can't trust almost anything to be what you order/expect. We always Rockwell test every replacement part today. You can buy valves today that are soft like you can't imagine. The stories are endless......

 

 

 

[TTR]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

Today you can't trust almost anything to be what you order/expect. We always Rockwell test every replacement part today. You can buy valves today that are soft like you can't imagine. The stories are endless......

 

 

 

Same here…

Unfortunately, same applies to almost all vintage car parts produced today or should we say in past couple of decades and not just engine or mechanical components. 🙄

Edited January 17 by TTR (see edit history)

[Hemi Joel]

Besides the inconsistent and poor quality of parts and removal of zinc from oil, lifter bores are more worn that they used to be from mileage. Lifter to bore clearance with a flat tappet cam is critical, and should be .0012" - .0018". If it is loose, or out of round, the lifters are less likely to properly rotate in the bore. This clearance needs to be checked, and rotation needs to be verified. If a flat tappet lifter doesn't rotate, it will fail promptly. If things aren't right, reamed/honed bores with oversize lifters (if available) or bushed lifter bores, or switching to roller lifters is the solution.

[TTR]

48 minutes ago, Hemi Joel said:

Besides the inconsistent and poor quality of parts and removal of zinc from oil, lifter bores are more worn that they used to be from mileage. Lifter to bore clearance with a flat tappet cam is critical, and should be .0012" - .0018". If it is loose, or out of round, the lifters are less likely to properly rotate in the bore. This clearance needs to be checked, and rotation needs to be verified. If a flat tappet lifter doesn't rotate, it will fail promptly. If things aren't right, reamed/honed bores with oversize lifters (if available) or bushed lifter bores, or switching to roller lifters is the solution.

Etc, etc, etc...

 

All this and more should make it clear why a properly and thoroughly done engine rebuild on any decades old American production car/truck V8 can easily run into tens of thousands $$'s, even without any exotic hot rodding or modifications.

Just a rebuild to stock specs.

 

[Lahti35]

This is a well know issue in the Ford FE world. Engine builders are experiencing failure after failure, especially with Comp lifters. There is documented proof on youtube that some lifters are not being machined correctly and do not have the correct radius ground on the face to promote rotation in operation. Originally a hardness issue was suspect but testing showed it was not the problem. I'm not saying that is the issue with all lifters that have failed but these issues have been documented very recently. 

 

My own FE I finished building last year had lifters from a reputable company and I did check to see they had a crown ground in them, which they do. I made it through break in, so far so good!

[nat]

     The Volvo B20 engine was notorious for soft lifters.  The last lifter in a box of 8 always had the the square indent from a Rockwell hardness tester.  

     Given the parts/labor ratio, one might do well to check them before installation.

     I don't know it as fact but have been told that some of the highest momentary loads in an engine are in the cam and lifters.

[Rusty_OToole]

They used to make millions of lifters every year for OEM manufacturers. Then they all changed to roller lifters and OHC designs, so no more flat tappet lifters were wanted. Except for aftermarket replacements a much smaller market. I suppose by now all the old line American makers have dropped the flat tappets and what you get are generic overseas or reconditioned used parts. No wonder the quality is not what it used to be.

[Bloo]

22 hours ago, Littlestown Mike said:

I hear of far more cam or lifter failures recently than ever before. I was discussing this with the owner of the machine shop who is doing the work on my Falcon six and he verified it. In his experience, cam and lifter failures became more of a problem since Covid. Maybe there is no relation to Covid, but maybe it is just a convenient way to mark the time

 

 

11 hours ago, Lahti35 said:

This is a well know issue in the Ford FE world. Engine builders are experiencing failure after failure, especially with Comp lifters. There is documented proof on youtube that some lifters are not being machined correctly and do not have the correct radius ground on the face to promote rotation in operation. Originally a hardness issue was suspect but testing showed it was not the problem. I'm not saying that is the issue with all lifters that have failed but these issues have been documented very recently. 

 

This has been going on much longer that Covid. Much hearsay follows. Salt recommended.

 

Right after they drastically dropped the zinc level in the oil, people were reporting cam failures, and blaming it on the oil. I did not learn of the alleged zinc issue until a couple years later when i had two cams fail. These were in old well used engines in rarely driven cars, a Chevy Smallblock and a Ford FE. It could easily have been a coincidence, but these were rarely driven cars, and both failed soon after an oil change. I had never heard of "low zinc" oil and had just changed using a quality brand of oil like always. Googling for better gaskets, some flourolastmer for the Chevy and some oem-type Victor Reinz for the Ford, I stumbled across many old threads about Zinc and oil and cam failures, but several of those threads had more recent posts by machine shop owners who had found a problem with "too soft" lifters in some well known brands you would ordinarily trust. They were starting to push back against the idea that oil was the root of the rash of cam failures, claiming the problem was the lifters, not the oil.

 

 

The Ford's problems turned out to be a little more complex than just the one flat lobe, but that is a long story and not really relevant to lifters. By the time I got around to fixing it, more time had passed, and Internet threads were claiming that lifters of the normal expected hardness were unavailable in any brand. Speculation abounded that all of them were coming from the same overseas factory. I had my original cam reground. The cam grinder acknowledged that he had seen hardness problems with overseas made lifters in recent times, but said he could provide better lifters. I sidestepped the issue by inquiring if I could have my original Ford lifters reground. The answer was yes, and the price was slightly higher than new lifters but not enough higher to matter. That turned out fine.

 

So, no. It's not new since Covid, and apparently it is still going on after several years. It is the first time I have heard of an incorrectly ground radius as the root cause. That part is completely new to me.

 

 

Edited January 18 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Littlestown Mike]

Looking for anyone who has had their lifters reground/ refinished recently.  How did that work out?  What did it cost?  Who do you recommend?

 

[EmTee]

My understanding is that the cam is 'soft' and the lifters are 'hard' with a slightly convex base.  If so, does regrinding a lifter remove the hardness and require them to be heat treated again?  Similarly, I assume regrinding a cam would expose virgin iron and require it to be broken-in with new lifters just like a new cam.  Perhaps installing lighter valve springs (or not installing the inner springs where used) to reduce seat pressure during break-in is a prudent move today, even on 'stock' rebuilds.

[1912Staver]

As far as I know flat base lifters are not heat treated, at least in the way most people think. The cam contact end is  " chilled " when the casting is still hot from the casting process. The chilling makes the grain structure of the fresh casting very hard and dense.

 I expect most old lifters can be reground at least once as long as the wear / pitting isn't too deep. It used to be a very common practice at cam grinding shops.

Edited January 18 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[dodge28]

Grinding the cam is one point. The lifter part that contacts the lobe must be ground too. There are shops that can case harden cams lobes and lifters.

[Bloo]

On 1/18/2024 at 4:55 AM, Littlestown Mike said:

Looking for anyone who has had their lifters reground/ refinished recently.  How did that work out?  What did it cost?  Who do you recommend?

 

I used Delta Cams, Tacoma, WA. They have an excellent reputation, and have been supplying hobbyists with custom cam grinds for decades. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I would call it recent. It was before covid. It worked out fine as far as I know, It hardly ever gets driven. I was driving it last week though. I don't recall what it cost. It was more than new lifters but not very much more. They disassembled and cleaned them, and reground the faces. Turnaround on that and a cam regrind was surprisingly fast. Probably a day or two. I didn't mail it as i was going to Seattle anyway, and that's close. I dropped them off and picked them up in Tacoma.

 

Be sure to check your lifter preload. Delta said it shouldn't change much, but I suspected it was already out of whack due to high mileage. It was. If your engine adjusts lifter preload by selective pushrod length like a Ford FE does, There is an outfit in Oregon called "Smith Brothers" who will make you some custom ones if you can't buy what you need in a standard size. I needed 3 oddballs.

 

 

[Littlestown Mike]

Bloo thanks for the reply!

I contacted Oregon Cam and they responded quickly--$89 to regrind the cam $5.50 per lifter.

Its a bit too far to drop off, but the US mail should deliver it OK.

 

[EmTee]

2 hours ago, Littlestown Mike said:

I contacted Oregon Cam and they responded quickly--$89 to regrind the cam $5.50 per lifter.

That's much more affordable than I expected.  You'll probably spend a significant percentage of that amount just shipping them back-and-forth... 

[Littlestown Mike]

On 1/21/2024 at 8:52 AM, EmTee said:

That's much more affordable than I expected.  You'll probably spend a significant percentage of that amount just shipping them back-and-forth... 

Surprisingly TRUE!

I spent just over $60 to ship US Ground parcel post.  That included $500 of insurance which I hope I do not need, but with oem cam cores becoming scarce and new good cams and lifter even more scarce, I thought it was a good $17 to spend. 

[edinmass]

FYI- you can almost never recover insurance on a package from UPS or FedEx.  Always take photos of a video of how you packed it. 

[Littlestown Mike]

22 hours ago, edinmass said:

FYI- you can almost never recover insurance on a package from UPS or FedEx.  Always take photos of a video of how you packed it. 

Great idea....but a little late for me.  Package is enroute.

[31Buick96S]

On 1/17/2024 at 7:02 AM, Littlestown Mike said:

I hear of far more cam or lifter failures recently than ever before. I was discussing this with the owner of the machine shop who is doing the work on my Falcon six and he verified it. In his experience, cam and lifter failures became more of a problem since Covid. Maybe there is no relation to Covid, but maybe it is just a convenient way to mark the time

 

He related several engines he has build using flat tappet cams with cams and lifters coming from well-known US manufacturers all failed within 12 minutes on the dyno. Its not EVERY engine, but a significant percentage that fail.  His response has been to recommend roller cams.

 

He also noted that he only buys all his parts from US distributors with whom he has worked for 40 years. Recently, some cams and lifter sets come in plain white boxes with no markings at all. He has asked his suppliers and they tell him that is the way they come, now. He suggested that any parts that come in plain white unmarked boxes be refused / not accepted and returned.

 

I asked him about using zinc-rich oil and he agreed, but still he sees failures.

 

He says old parts in good shape are better than new. I told him I will be using OEM springs – they all tested to meet the FSM specs and he said that would work in my favor. Accept that the engine will never spin over 4,500-5,000 rpm and I should be better off.

 

So, here i am asking if that fits with all your experience? My machine shop has been doing this work for over 40 years – he build some rare and exotic stuff and some rare antiques, so don't just blame him. I am asking about your experience.

This article is informative regarding break in oils and break in procedures.

 https://www.hemmings.com/stories/break-in-that-new-engine-with-the-right-oil/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=EDaily&utm_campaign=2024-01-29

[Littlestown Mike]

On 1/29/2024 at 12:32 PM, 31Buick96S said:

This article is informative regarding break in oils and break in procedures.

 https://www.hemmings.com/stories/break-in-that-new-engine-with-the-right-oil/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=EDaily&utm_campaign=2024-01-29

 

THANK YOU!!!!

Looks like good basic information.  Way too much erroneous "information" all over the 'net.

I am concerned enough about my cam and lifters to pay attention and use the proper oil.  Since I am doing a stock rebuild with stock spring pressures, I expect to be OK, but will still invest in a correct break-in oil and then regular oil.  At the cost of machine shop services, spending a little extra on oil is less of an issue.

 

[31Buick96S]

3 hours ago, Littlestown Mike said:

 

THANK YOU!!!!

Looks like good basic information.  Way too much erroneous "information" all over the 'net.

I am concerned enough about my cam and lifters to pay attention and use the proper oil.  Since I am doing a stock rebuild with stock spring pressures, I expect to be OK, but will still invest in a correct break-in oil and then regular oil.  At the cost of machine shop services, spending a little extra on oil is less of an issue.

 

About 35 years ago, the shop I worked for built a long block 396 BBC. The guy took it home to install it himself.  A couple of weeks later he showed up with it in the back of a pickup screaming that the engine “seized up” within minutes of starting. I put it on a stand while he was there and noted the RTV squeezed out of the pan gasket. He said that he had pulled the pan to “prime “ the engine. When I pulled the pan, the oil pump pickup was clogged with wheel bearing grease. Mains and rod bearings were smoked. When I pulled the cover plate on the oil pump, it had been packed with grease.  The guy’s grandfather told him that was how they did it “back in the day “ . Bad part was, I had loaned him my pre- oiler and explained how to prime the engine when he picked the engine up.  🤷‍♂️

[Frank DuVal]

Buick said to use petroleum jelly to pack the oil pump so it would prime. This was on the engines where the oil pickup in the pan was “miles” from the oil pump in the timing gear case at the front of the engine. Note also just pack the pump, not the miles of tube to the pick up!😉

[Littlestown Mike]

If only he had used the pre-oiler!  It costs nothing to use and you know if your have oil flow or if you don't.  Surprised the pump wasn't loaded with RTV.

Some people have no "feel" for things mechanical.

[Frank DuVal]

Have you guys heard of cranking a newly assembled engine to do a compression test without filling the oil pan with oil??? He was also wondering why the engine was so hard to turn with the starter.

[Angelfish]

My neighbor is working on a mid 60s Ford Galaxie.  He got the 390 buttoned up this spring and within 50 miles the top end had torn itself apart.  Soft lifters was his explanation, and if I understand correctly he did get a little bit of warranty satisfaction out of it.  Not enough to cover the frustration, but better than nothing.   Poor quality parts seem to be epidemic in the last few years. 

 

 

Edited February 2 by Angelfish (see edit history)

[junkyardjeff]

I had a cam fail on a 351-w last fall during break in,used break in oil and assembly lube and pre lubed it and two lobes failed. It was a name brand cam and lifters and do not know if it was the cam or lifters but one of the two was not made properly.

[rocketraider]

On 2/2/2024 at 10:25 AM, Frank DuVal said:

Have you guys heard of cranking a newly assembled engine to do a compression test without filling the oil pan with oil??? He was also wondering why the engine was so hard to turn with the starter.

[Jack Bennett]

On 1/17/2024 at 4:02 AM, Littlestown Mike said:

I hear of far more cam or lifter failures recently than ever before. I was discussing this with the owner of the machine shop who is doing the work on my Falcon six and he verified it. In his experience, cam and lifter failures became more of a problem since Covid. Maybe there is no relation to Covid, but maybe it is just a convenient way to mark the time

 

He related several engines he has build using flat tappet cams with cams and lifters coming from well-known US manufacturers all failed within 12 minutes on the dyno. Its not EVERY engine, but a significant percentage that fail.  His response has been to recommend roller cams.

 

He also noted that he only buys all his parts from US distributors with whom he has worked for 40 years. Recently, some cams and lifter sets come in plain white boxes with no markings at all. He has asked his suppliers and they tell him that is the way they come, now. He suggested that any parts that come in plain white unmarked boxes be refused / not accepted and returned.

 

I asked him about using zinc-rich oil and he agreed, but still he sees failures.

 

He says old parts in good shape are better than new. I told him I will be using OEM springs – they all tested to meet the FSM specs and he said that would work in my favor. Accept that the engine will never spin over 4,500-5,000 rpm and I should be better off.

 

So, here i am asking if that fits with all your experience? My machine shop has been doing this work for over 40 years – he build some rare and exotic stuff and some rare antiques, so don't just blame him. I am asking about your experience.

I have read, and I have reread this post several times, and I still can’t completely understand what it means.

I can interpret it to be a confession made by a person, who was given the same responsibility as would be afforded a professional, and competent, machinist, who is not that.

The one source of information quoted here is from a single person who cites his own experience as documentation that lifter and camshaft failures are becoming more the norm than the exception.

I call fowl, and ask that a small amount of personal responsibility and accountability be reinstated into the “professional” trades, and that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, it probably is a duck.

Why on earth would a “professional” machinist continue to use inferior parts, employ previously failed procedures, and blame repeated, but exactly the same sort of failures on the merchandiser’s he chose to use as parts providers.

At what time, after a repeated number of failures, apparently all involving the mechanisms, time, funds and delays of his customers, does a true professional close the check book, lay aside the profit margin and realize that personal responsibility for accomplishment of a contracted job extends well beyond buying the ergonomic arm chair, updating the office, or padding the retirement program?

I will recognize my 80th year of life this coming July and I have been involved in some sort of mechanics since I was in knee high pants. And I can take a oath of truth on any Bible in existence that throughout this entire time attesting to the fact that I have seen one camshaft, the lifters, and, ultimately the entire engine destroyed, and that single case was because of error on behalf of the rebuilder, and had nothing to do with the materials used in the rebuild.

This instance was a fellow, with scant mechanical experience, who decided to build a new engine for his 1986 Ford F-150.

After spending several thousand dollars on a the Ford SVO kit needed to change the meek 351 engine, installed in a light duty truck, which was expected to pull a 30’, fully loaded travel trailer, into a asphalt eating machine capable of moving mountains, 

The specially designed fuel delivery system, the exotic high rise manifold, the Mallory HEI ignition system and the new exhaust manifold, when combined with the porting and relieving of air intake and exhaust completed the job.

There was always the question about using the old valve springs, but it seemed logical to use the stronger springs which were included in the kit.

I will pause here to mention that I rebuilt several engines, bath gas and diesel during the time I worked for a trucking company in Seattle. And, eve though I is not in the Gospel, without fail, I made it a rule to set the accelerator at 1500 RPM PRIOR to the first start up, and ran the engine at this RPM for nearly a hour PRIOR to shutting it down. This allowed the lifters to “float” and “cook in” to the new camshaft. I never lost one single engine due to camshaft or lifter failure, and when I quit work at the company, most engine I had rebuilt, had logged over 200,000 miles of commercial use in heavy trucks.

Anyway, as a 15 year old high school student we learned to use plastigauge, feelers and good sense during every camshaft install.

Your machinist most probably has over 40 years of experience, but, when I interviewed a prospective new hire mechanic, who used his many years past experience as a testament of what I could expect for his future contribution to the business, I couldn’t help but think about the bad effect his skills would have on my shop IF these many years experience had been plagued with poor ability as a mechanic and consequential failed procedures.

Perhaps your machinist was good, and perhaps he is still good, but, perhaps it is time for him to hang up his tools and admit that Alzheimer’s, dementia and failing physical ability has more affect on what we do “professionally” than what we select to do it with.

Oh, and my friend’s beautifully painted, chromed manifold, pretty bright blue ignition wired 351 lasted less than 200 miles before it ate the lifters, smoothed the cam lobes, and digested all the scrap metal as a lubricant meal shared with the crank and pistons.

[rocketraider]

1 hour ago, Jack Bennett said:

 

Why on earth would a “professional” machinist continue to use inferior parts, employ previously failed procedures, and blame repeated, but exactly the same sort of failures on the merchandiser’s he chose to use as parts providers.

Jack, it often boils down to the best available part is still junk from the manufacturer. 

 

I see it more in electrical components, but my rule of thumb is if it comes in a white box, or shows any evidence of reboxing, odds are good it's not a quality part.

 

Cams and lifters are a worst case, partly due to inferior metals and poor hardening techniques. Indifferent assembly procedures don't help, especially when an assembler does not: 1) use a high pressure assembly lube, 2) use a suitable break-in oil with the required additives, 3) break in the engine for at least 1/2 hour at a speed high enough to ensure oil pressure and circulation at normalized temperatures.

 

I blame that on watching "car guy" TV shows that NEVER show or mention proper startup procedures on a fresh, never-fired engine. They start it (usually with some manufactured drama), slap themselves on the back and shut it down. Recipe for disaster.

 

Then the nonmechanical schmucks watching get inspired "That ain't hard! I can do that!" and it all goes downhill quickly.

[Rusty_OToole]

There are numerous videos on Youtube about this very subject. Experienced engine builders and mechanics having problems with cam and lifter failure on rebuilt engines, always flat tappet cams, who never had such problems before. In some cases using cams and lifters from a previously reputable company. It seems like quality lifters are no longer available. So many engine builders are using roller cams exclusively.

[Jack Bennett]

6 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Jack, it often boils down to the best available part is still junk from the manufacturer. 

 

I see it more in electrical components, but my rule of thumb is if it comes in a white box, or shows any evidence of reboxing, odds are good it's not a quality part.

 

Cams and lifters are a worst case, partly due to inferior metals and poor hardening techniques. Indifferent assembly procedures don't help, especially when an assembler does not: 1) use a high pressure assembly lube, 2) use a suitable break-in oil with the required additives, 3) break in the engine for at least 1/2 hour at a speed high enough to ensure oil pressure and circulation at normalized temperatures.

 

I blame that on watching "car guy" TV shows that NEVER show or mention proper startup procedures on a fresh, never-fired engine. They start it (usually with some manufactured drama), slap themselves on the back and shut it down. Recipe for disaster.

 

Then the nonmechanical schmucks watching get inspired "That ain't hard! I can do that!" and it all goes downhill quickly.

Rusty, I only post about 1/3 of everything I write, and I usually end up deleting most of that.

I sincerely wish I were capable of writing something that appealed to everyone, and offended no one. But, sadly, that isn’t the case because some people just adore being offended, and regardless of what is said, it is taken as a affront to their intellect.

Of course the quality of parts and the amount of attention to detail when they are installed, can make or break a deal.

I responded to the remark that “I was discussing this with the owner of the machine shop who is doing the work on my Falcon six and he verified it. In his experience, cam and lifter failures became more of a problem since Covid. Maybe there is no relation to Covid, but maybe it is just a convenient way to mark the time”.

During the COVID pandemic I too witnessed my fair share of slackers and breast feeders, but the people in line to cash their COVID stimulus checks were the same people I saw previous to the pandemic, also waiting in line to cash their unemployment and EBT checks.

Please don’t take this as a condemnation of programs enacted to help the disadvantaged get over hard places, but do understand that it was also a excellent opportunity for a slacker to be rewarded for no other reason than being a slacker.

A true professional would refuse a shipment of parts, or other proven defective materials, and a true professional would also refuse to install known defective parts even if provided by the customer.

This forum is a meeting place for folks who dote on antique and classic engines, and the day doesn’t pass that another 100 year old engine, connected to a equally old drive train, doesn’t propel its proud owner down some peaceful and tranquil street.

I’d be beyond mad if ( I had one), my machinist blamed the trouncing of my prized 327 on defective parts or on the parts supplier, and had the gall to include a hefty shipping and handling charge, in addition to his bill for professional labor which facilitated their installation.

The professional has a credence which sets them aside from the shade tree mechanic, and as such, gets a level of respect, and a according well padded income not afforded the non mechanical schmuck.

But, the ultimate responsibility rests with the customer to select which they choose to deal with.

Jack