Wiping Lead

[Jack Bennett]

When I was a kid, just after Kublai Kahn won the election to become Mongol Emperor, I remember dad doing body work on his old Ford truck, and my older brothers doing the same on their hot rod.

But dad didn’t use body putty or fiberglass.

Instead he used a blow torch, a cauldron and some lead.

As I remember it, being 7 or eight years old, he heated the lead in the cauldron until it melted, then he used a brush, I think they called it by a unusual name, something like a “wiping” brush to smear a swath of melted lead on the body repair.

He then spread the rapidly hardening lead over the area to be repaired, frequently heating the area with a blow torch to keep the lead a liquid.

Then he used a rasp, I think the same kind used by a farrier to rasp horse hooves, to smooth out the repaired surface.

I have begun work on a 1929 Fargo Express panel truck which is rusted beyond anyone’s ability to further damage it. Every place the body has been dented, or where sections of metal is joined, is now rotted through, and extensive sheet metal repair would be difficult, if not impossible, to repair the damage.

The truck is only a project, and there is no rush to finish it, and where it is located, it can only be viewed by a invited person or a trespasser on my property.

I bought the truck because it has a wide variety of things needing to be done, and I need a lot of things to do. The mechanics is greatest when spread over a long enough period of time that the whopping expense of buying the last part is forgotten by the time it becomes necessary to buy another part costing the same ridiculously high price….and, thankfully, at my age, it doesn’t take too long to forget anything.

The wood work is always a welcome reprieve from crawling around under the truck, what with my bad shoulders and all, to clean and repair the underside of the truck.

Suspension, steering and brakes are fun to work with, but are a pretty common thing when comparing a 1929 truck to a 1999 model truck.

That leaves body and fender repair, and being nearly 80 years old, I am not going to buy a plasma cutter or a MIG welder to do it with.

And I am super dissatisfied with how poorly body putty repairs ages, and how quickly the repair can go bad.

So, in the quest of NOK, aka, New-Old-Knowledge, I think I will learn to use wiping lead to repair damage to the sheet metal on the body of the Fargo.

Granted, using a blow torch on a body consisting of .01% metal and .99% wood may not be a good idea. But I think it will add a fun part to using the same method to repair body damage to the Fargo as it was done 50 years ago. 

Jack

Edited October 22, 2023 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

yes,my elderly neighbor did that and then "pick [hammer] and file " dents or bodywork.......not sand paper..........a lot of old cars have leaded body panel joints from the factory

[John Kelso]

Having learned the art of lead work many years ago, and on occasion still use it, the repairs you need to do need new metal welded in place. Everything needs to be shiny clean

No matter what method you use the repair is no better than the surface it is applied to.

There is nothing wrong with body putty when used properly

[Bhigdog]

Using lead is almost an art. It takes a sound and CLEAN substrate, the correct flux, the correct lead ( think 50/50 or 40/60 ) the correct heat application, the correct spreading tool ( charred wood works good ) and the correct files not to mention the correct breathing apparatus for both application and finishing.

OTOH. Quality body filler will do as good or better a job quicker, easier, cheaper and safer...........Bob

[Rusty_OToole]

The way you describe your dad doing the lead work is called a mush pot. The video shows a stick of lead being used, if you wanted to economize you would sweep up the drips and filings off the floor, melt them in a hub cap or an old iron pot, scoop out the lead with a wooden paddle and paddle it on the car.

 

The file they use is called a Vixen file, it has coarse curved teeth to shave off the lead. They come in flat and curved style, the flat ones can go in a handle that can be adjusted to bend the file.

Vixen file

 

File holder

 

My favorite lead demo, Bill Hines demonstrates the technique while George Barris runs his mouth just like the old days.  Favorite quote "I learned how to do this in 1941". That is old school.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[7th Son]

1 hour ago, arcticbuicks said:

........a lot of old cars have leaded body panel joints from the factory

I toured the Ford assembly plant ln Milpitas, CA, in 1955. As the car bodies came down the line before painting, there were two workers, one on each side of the car, spreading molten lead over the rear fender seams and the panel between the rear window and the trunk lid opening. I don't recall seeing any special breathing or ventilation equipment and the tour group was only about ten feet or so away from the line.

 

[Walt G]

I was taught how to do this in the early 1970s but haven't done it since, a lost art. Lots of skill and patience as with most things.

[dodge28]

Rusty- Otoole, you done it again. I discovered lead was used on the joints of my 28 DB. Some wood pieces was charred  at that point. The gas torch was the only tool for sheet metal at the time .The metal has to be tinned . The basic of soldering. The quality of body filler has come a long way and works fine if done properly.

[Fordy]

I have tried it once and it was fine whilst the body solder was in the plastic semi molten state. A little too much heat and it all dripped down to form a puddle on the floor. 

Chrysler Australia had guys either side of cars coming down the line in the early '70s when I was there, slapping lead on where roof joined the rear 1/4. I believe they only took around 15 seconds to complete it ready for the paint shop. They did wear dust masks. Fascinating to watch as a fresh faced kid.

Steve

[Bhigdog]

Notice In the video the guy with the red sweater, the king of leading, is not wearing any kind of breathing protection. He's only 35 years old........Bob

Edited October 22, 2023 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[Bloo]

@Jack Bennett, the damage you show in the pictures cannot be fixed with lead any more than it could be fixed with plastic body filler. Lead is soft and breakable much like plastic filler. As @JAK mentioned everything needs to be shiny clean. It also must be structurally sound. Today some "metal finishers" with shops full of special tools eschew the use of lead because they can repair the metal to be good as new. In the old days though, a typical crash repair was not going to be smooth enough for paint, and lead was used. It was also used at car factories to hide seams in panels.

 

The pictured damage needs metal replacement. You'll have to get it clean. If you can run an acetylene torch, which is also what they typically used for lead, sometimes brass/bronze can be used with less than perfect metal. I've seen this in auto body textbooks from 70-ish years ago, but it is frowned upon today because it is difficult to get paint and or fillers to stick to it long term. It is a potential idea to have in your arsenal though. Some of the areas in your picture are too far gone structurally for even brass, and I think you will need to make patches. Good luck. I'm glad you saved this truck.

 

[nat]

12 minutes ago, Bloo said:

the damage you show in the pictures cannot be fixed with lead any more than it could be fixed with plastic body filler.

     It could be filled with plastic filler but that's not what I would call "fixed".

 

13 minutes ago, Bloo said:

As @JAK mentioned everything needs to be shiny clean.

     Years ago a guy in a radiator shop said "you can't solder dirt".  I remember those words every time I have a need to solder something.  A wire brush or wheel might make the surface look shiny and clean but it won't be chemically clean enough for solder or tinning compound to stick.

     

24 minutes ago, Bloo said:

sometimes brass/bronze can be used with less than perfect metal.

     

 

Brazing can/will build up paper thin steel and fill holes and gaps more easily than can be done with welding or solder but it causes a lot more distortion, (than solder will), invites rust to untreated surfaces and the flux can be miserable to remove.  

     Phosphoric acid and elbow grease will remove brazing flux.  "Ospho" doesn't work as well as straight phosphoric acid but it seems to be the next best thing.

 

45 minutes ago, Bloo said:

bronze can be used with less than perfect metal. I've seen this in auto body textbooks from 70-ish years ago, but it is frowned upon today because it is difficult to get paint and or fillers to stick to it long term.

          I don't know squat about which paints do what but I've had enough cars with lead body filler to recognize the presence of lead filler by the paint's lack of luster and pimple sized volcanos.

     I'd love to hear of any better methods of removing brazing/silver solder flux.

Thanks,  Nat

[Jack Bennett]

3 hours ago, Bloo said:

The pictured damage needs metal replacement. You'll have to get it clean. Some of the areas in your picture are too far gone structurally for even brass, and I think you will need to make patches. Good luck. I'm glad you saved this truck.

 

Hi Bloo. When I first looked at the truck I didn’t pay much attention to things like the body damage I’ve shown here. The truck was in a dark garage and barely accessible because the garage was full of motorcycles and motorcycle parts.

What with the bad cylinder bores, missing transmission and drive shaft and  million other things being wrong, I doubt the truck will be drivable in my lifetime.

But, I look forward to each day with it because it does need so much done, and it cannot be hurt when I try something new while working on it.

I went into this knowing that much of the body damage will not be repaired unless I completely replace the rusted sheet metal.

As I recall dad’s old truck, I think a 37 Ford stake bed, was always getting banged up, And dad, who had a 2nd grade education and could barely read and write, always had good luck using wiping lead to repair the dents and dings to the truck body.

There is no reasonable argument I could make regarding why I don’t want to buy an inert gas welder, and have a 220 volt electrical outlet installed to connect it to house power. Nor is there a argument against why I don’t have a local body and fender shop repair the damage.

But, I’m still not convinced that I should do either, and I am interested in seeing how the lead works.. 

I do have a small wire feed welder, and I can weld good enough to meet the needs of the old panel so far as replacing some skin sheet metal goes.

Responses to this thread, and the information contained in them, will ultimately play a big part in how I ultimately approach repairing the truck skin.

Jack

[Rusty_OToole]

It's a myth that lead, filler or paint won't stick to bronze or brazed seams. It won't stick to the flux used to make the bronze stick to the steel. You have to get all the flux off there. I used to braze a seam then rub it with a wet rag and most of the flux would pop off. Then grind the seam with a disc grinder and finally go over it with a wire brush in a drill. Finally get down with a trouble light and my eyes inches from the seam and have a good look.

You also can't have any missed spots or pin  holes. Usually you have to go over it more than once. Same goes for mig welding if you want to do it right.

Lead, paint or filler will stick to bronze if it is prepared well.

[Jack Bennett]

I do, sincerely appreciate every response to this thread. It is not possible for me to respond to each individual post, but there are none which goes unread or unheeded. This old truck is looked at as if it was an old blood hound which had served its masters for over 70 years. It can no longer sniff out an escaped criminal or even tree a raccoon, but it has earned the right to have my respect for its lengthy, and hopefully faithful service. And, it still is a treasure trove of unanswered questions, which I hope to share on the forum for help and answers.

Jack

[Frank DuVal]

On 10/22/2023 at 4:32 PM, Fordy said:

, slapping lead on where roof joined the rear 1/4. I believe they only took around 15 seconds to complete it ready for the paint shop.

And that is why it was sill a method for Fisher Body long after Chrysler and Ford went to plastic filler. Dome and ready for prime within minutes, plastic filler is much slower. And if plastic is finished too soon, it still moves around (shrinks) and distorts the surface.

[rocketraider]

My 69 Toronado had a lot of weirdness when it was stripped to metal for paint in early 90s. It was a factory vinyl top job and most anyone familiar with GM vinyl tops from that time knows you can see the roof to quarter panel leaded seams under the vinyl top. They're never perfectly flat.

 

Anyway. When the vinyl roof was stripped off, the roof to quarter seam on the driver side was leaded. The passenger side was plastic filler.

 

The quarter to trunk panel seams on both sides were leaded. Puzzling to say the least.

 

The mystery was solved when I met a Fisher Body Euclid Plant retiree who asked "when was the body built?". 12C, 3d week of December 1968 (which explains even more of the weirdness on this car).

 

Turns out GM was experimenting with plastic filler on the roof seams for vinyl roof cars in late 1968, and even the Euclid E-body luxury car body plant (Toronado/Eldorado/Riviera body assembly) was participating. 

[Restorer32]

We still paddle lead in the few instances where it is the best choice. Getting harder and harder to find the correct alloy stick lead.

[R Walling]

 I once used lead back in the late 60s and I left the drippings and filings on the floor for about a week in order to show people that I was a "quality" shop.

 Never used it again until 2006 when I had to lengthen a door 3/8s of an inch with a sliver of 16 Ga. steel.

 

 (You never forget how to ride a bicycle!)

 

 An added note,  who can ever forget that you had to use 16 grit on a disk grinder when you applied to much Bondo!

[Frank DuVal]

IIRC it is 30/70 ratio solder for Lead work. Yep, confirmed by Google. 😉🕸️

 

30/70 has a wider plastic range to work the lead. There is a lead worker's torch adapter that allows an Oxy-Acet torch to just burn the Acetylene in air for a colder flame.

 

I tried working lead on car bodies. My most successful endeavor was  leading the seams of a Triumph Spitfire hood (seams from hood section to fender sections). I could position the hood to have the seams horizontal so the lead didn't just run off when I got it too hot.🚗

 

 

[28 Chrysler]

On 10/22/2023 at 1:54 PM, Bhigdog said:

Notice In the video the guy with the red sweater, the king of leading, is not wearing any kind of breathing protection. He's only 35 years old........Bob

That brown stick filter is all you need. It also designed to clean the hands of any lead particles.

[Restorer32]

Get the metal to the right temp and the torch burning just right and lead spreads like butter, even on a vertical surface.

[TTR]

A couple of things to consider/remember:

 

- Use of lead  in (older vintage) automotive body manufacturing was to cover/fill/hide assembly seams not intended to be visible on the final product.

In past few decades the manufacturing of automotive bodies and panels has advanced/evolved(?) to a point of eliminating a need for seams requiring such “cover-up”.

 

- Use of lead (or any other spreadable body fillers, incl. “Bondo”, etc) in just about all automotive body repairs, restorations (or customizing), both modern or vintage, is and traditionally was usually to cover/fill/hide inadequately/insufficiently performed metal finishing, i.e. forming/shaping/welding/etc.

In other words, more fillers (bondo or lead) needed/used means less quality in sheet metal finish.

 

OTOH, with very few and rare exceptions, whenever someone tells me their repainted/repaired/restored vintage car body doesn’t have any fillers, I assume they’re either lying, don’t know any better or the car doesn’t have smooth/straight panels.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[JustDave]

When I first started in the body shop some 55 years ago a pick hammer a bulls eye aimed and an assortment of body files is all we had,bonds was just starting out and wasn’t really successful at that time mainly because people weren’t knowledgeable on using it,I watched the painter always clean welds and lead with vinegar then metal prep then a light coat of lacquer primer

[Dave Henderson]

I learned lead work in the '40's from an artisan before plastic fillers came on the scene.  Body lead was relatively cheap in the day but not now.  Straightening by pick-and-file work without using filler was the most respectable way to repair then, whenever possible.  Users of lead just as a short cut were dubbed "lead slingers".  A variety of wood paddles of several sizes are needed if a number of different shapes are to be leaded, and they were kept from scorching by wiping them lightly in a tub of heated bees wax.  On cars of the '30's and '40's especially, where there was original paint that failed in areas over leading it was due to traces of flux or other impurities leaching through miniscule pores in the lead.  And the Vixen files would sometimes leave teeth marks that required multiple coats of primer.  No wonder plastic took over.