Rare and desirable carburetors discussion

[carbking]

17 hours ago, tcslr said:

IMHO, the most desirable carburetor … the one that works for my cars. 
 

sorry.

 

id like to hear from carbking and others about the carbs used on dual-fuel tractors. That started on gasoline and switched to kerosene. 
 

These were in two types:

 

(1) dual fuel bowls, like the "10 ball" Kingston pictured in this thread

(2) "normal" carburetor (single fuel bowl) with different jetting

 

Since the engine air volume does not change with the fuel, the same carburetor may be used, but with a different calibration. Typically, the Marvel/Scheblers of which I am most familiar would be calibrated for kerosene.

 

I grew up with John Deere 2 cylinder tractors on the farm in the 1950's, many of which were dual fuel. These had two fuel tanks; the large tank for kerosene (a.k.a. distillate), and a much smaller tank for gasoline (typically 1 gallon or so).

 

If used as intended, one would start the engine on gasoline, warm for a couple of minutes, then switch to kerosene. The key was ALWAYS switch to gasoline and run a few minutes before killing the engine. By doing this, one would assure that the carburetor bowl contained gasoline for the next start.

 

Since using both fuels required two storage tanks at the farm, Dad just ran the engines on gasoline alone.

 

On a similiar issue, both I.H.C. and John Deere had diesels which had a carburetor! They started on gasoline, then cut off the carb and switched to diesel.

 

Jon

[edinmass]

3 hours ago, carbking said:

Ed - are you thinking of the Juhasz?

 

I think, by adding values, you also added to my definition of "dsirable"; thanks.

 

I have to mildly disagree on the best carb is always the original. If you are dealing with quality products like Stromberg, in most cases totally agree. However, there was that DDR-3 Duesenberg carb.

 

But if you look at some of the lower priced carburetors; there are often better options. How would you compare a Kingston L4 (not rare, but original) to a Stromberg OF?

 

And today, there are some zinc alloy carbs that have plain disintegrated over time; and were used on cars that will not sell for enough to justify reproduction of the carburetor. In cases such as these, replacements can be a good idea.

 

Jon

Yes! The Junaze! Believe it or not we just got our hands on one and I haven’t seen it yet. Came in a pile of junk we bought. It’s going on a display engine with a blower…..should make quite a piece in the living room. Yup, a friend is placing it in his great room at his house.

 

As far as your other comments, by experience is tilted in a weird way that is probably unique as I have almost exclusively only serviced the monster vehicles and have almost no practical experience on the lower end and middle of the road cars. Being a Stromberg fan, my T has a Stromberg OF along with all the special choke linkage and stove pipe. I’m a purist but the thought of having a cool Stromberg on it was irresistible to me from all the time we have spent making and selling Stromberg parts. When buying the OF if was fun, because compared to the usual numbers we toss down for the crazy rare units…….the OF almost seemed free……the Ford T guys kept apologizing to me for the prices they were charging……..and it was hard to keep a straight face while thinking in the back of my head that this trick set up for my car will cost less than 1500 dollars. Spending anything over a twenty dollar bill on a T makes you seem like Bill Gates or some other similar billionaire. So my “bone stock unmolested T was altered by me so I could run a Stromberg………..each car need a something a little special on it. 

[carbking]

I have only seen one of the Juhasz for Duesenberg.

 

Back when Bill Harrah's place was going full bore, a Duesenberg belonging to a famous actress came in with one of these. The mechanics at Harrah's couldn't make it work (they had some really good mechanics, so was quite surprised); so they sent it to me?? I completely disassembled it, blew out all the passageways, checked for function of everything and reassembled. I called the shop foreman (too long ago, don't remember the name) and told his it probably still wouldn't work (it didn't) and to find a Schebler. They located the correct Schebler, installed it, and the car ran the way it was supposed to run.

 

A display engine is probably the best place for it!

 

Jon

Edited August 13, 2023 by carbking (see edit history)

[Layden B]

It seems nobody likes the original air intake horn on the Winfield N carbs!

[41 Su8]

how about the Schebler S Duplex used on Reo Royale

[1912Staver]

Any demand for Claudel Hobson ? I think the one I have is automotive rather than aircraft. They were used on some of the better British sports machines just after the first WW.  Not sure if mine was sold as a upgrade  / replacement  for a domestic car, or was O.E.M. off a British car that made its way to North America. Not sure where it is at the moment. Things are a big jumble after my recent move.

Edited August 13, 2023 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

8 hours ago, carbking said:

I have only seen one of the Juhasz for Duesenberg.

 

Back when Bill Harrah's place was going full bore, a Duesenberg belonging to a famous actress came in with one of these. The mechanics at Harrah's couldn't make it work (they had some really good mechanics, so was quite surprised); so they sent it to me?? I completely disassembled it, blew out all the passageways, checked for function of everything and reassembled. I called the shop foreman (too long ago, don't remember the name) and told his it probably still wouldn't work (it didn't) and to find a Schebler. They located the correct Schebler, installed it, and the car ran the way it was supposed to run.

 

A display engine is probably the best place for it!

 

Jon

We are planning to make it run on the stand……. but we have plenty of Scheblers  and Strombergs. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Layden B said:

It seems nobody likes the original air intake horn on the Winfield N carbs!

Tease.    

[edinmass]

Windfields are strange units……..

the vintage guys seem to love them………..but they really only work at wide open throttle. My neighbors 32 Plymouth ice racer runs them. Car runs like a bat out of hell. My 1917 White has a Stromberg barrel valve carb on it. According to Jon, it’s the only car ever sold new with that type of carb. The car runs well……but is a dog on fuel economy. It’s hard to believe how bad it is. 

[Guest]

My family has been running Winfield's for as long as I can remember on their speedsters.  In general with very good economy and power.  I'm thinking about the dual H setup on the speedster, the N on the Buick after I have the bugs worked out with the car using the stromberg, and the large master on the tourabout if I ever get working on it.

[hidden_hunter]

Why am I not surprised to see Johnson's carbs on your list of 'desirable'

[West Peterson]

On my bookshelf is one of the DL duals on your original list... or, at least parts of it.

[Pfeil]

On 8/10/2023 at 12:58 PM, carbking said:

Started this thread because a similar thread (the "holy grail" thread) piqued my interest. What would be your list? As these lists would be personal, there are NO wrong answers. I am curious to see other response. Note that I am in the carburetor business, and my list are carbs that all I would need to do to sell one is place it for sale. Before I had finished listing, the phone would be ringing off the table. Price on several of these would run into 5 figures. All of them would be 4 figures.

 

My list of top 20 rare and desirable carburetors:

 

Stromberg UU-3 (Duesenberg race only)

Carter 3636s (trap door NASCAR Pontiac

Rochester 7029273 (1969 RA IV Pontiac)

Rochester 7041273 (1971 Pontiac 455 HO)

Stromberg EE-3 1 3/8 (Duesenberg)

Stromberg EE-3 1 5/16 (Packard 12)

Stewart Model 25 for the 1928 Victory 6

Detroit Lubricator dual for Packard 734

Carter 3593s (NASCAR Chevrolet)

Rochester 7040256 (Olds W-30)

Holley R-1536 and R-1599 (supercharged Ford / T-Bird)

Rochester 7010600 (Pontiac 2x4)

Carter 407s, 408s, 488s (Graham)(488s is so highly sought after, I reproduced 2 of them)

Autolite inline 4-barrel (Ford racing)

Stromberg EX-32 1 3/8 (supercharged Auburn)

Zenith brass 105D (Stutz)

Riley (aftermarket sidedraft)

 

Jon

I know your feelings on Pontiac Tri-Power, do those same reasons hold true for the 1966 tri carb Olds, 406 3x2 Ford and Mopar six pack?

[carbking]

West - now that is a RARE carburetor!

 

Pfeil - Yes. I consider them eye-candy (but they certainly are that!!!). I guess I shouldn't make that statement, as I still have a dozen or more Pontiac tripowers, one of the 390/406 Ford tripowers, and many others to sell.

 

Jon

[West Peterson]

12 hours ago, carbking said:

West - now that is a RARE carburetor!

 

Jon

 

I wonder what it would take to build back up. $$$ There's a reason that DL changed from this cast white metal to brass.

[carbking]

5 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

I wonder what it would take to build back up. $$$ There's a reason that DL changed from this cast white metal to brass.

West - they went the other direction.

 

The first 734 carbs (Jan-Feb) were brass.

 

The second run (Mar and newer) were zinc.

 

Jon

[West Peterson]

Oh... oops. That explains why our July delivery car has the zinc.

[carbking]

West - take a look at the 6 character/number string on the dataplate:

 

First character - month of production of the carburetor: A=Jan, B=Feb, etc.

Second and third numbers - last 2 digits of the year of production of the carburetor

Fourth through sixth numbers - the carburetor identification number, I think it is 825 for the Packard Model 734.

 

Jon

[John E. Guitar]

Regal Model N Carburettor.

 

 

[pmhowe]

The Weber 42 DCOE 8 is a side draft carburetor developed for the Maserati 3500 GT. Morgan Motors also used it on their Plus Four Super Sport. It is a fairly rare carburetor.

 

The carburetor is well built and very flexible. On the Morgan TR 3  or TR 4 engine, there is one carburetor throat per cylinder.  With an aggressive cam, they are a real pain to synchronize using a vacuum gauge or a Unisyn gauge. There is just too much jumping about. I found I could do better just by ear and a hose. Once calibrated and synchronized, however, the car goes like scoot.

 

One can buy kits containing different jets, and tune the engine to specific conditions.  I took advantage of that when I took my car from sea level to 8000’ in Colorado.

[1912Staver]

A real SS ?

[cudaman]

Rare, but not necessarily desirable (unless you're restoring a Flanders or EMF 30), original Flanders and EMF 30 carburetors.  EMF chose to design and manufacture their own carburetors instead of buying them from a supplier. 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by cudaman (see edit history)

[pmhowe]

15 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

A real SS ?

Actually, yes. It was built in 1963 and was despatched to Canada on May 7^th of that year to Metro Motors, of Windsor, Ontario. I bought it used (in the US) in the late 1960s and kept it and drove it for twenty years, first as my sole means of transportation and then as a weekend driver. It was a fun car, and I miss it.

 

However, with increasing age, I wanted a more docile, luxurious car with greater creature comforts. So I sold the Super Sport and bought a Morgan drophead coupe, which has such niceties as bolt in windows with real glass and a top that is easy to erect when it rains. It’s a fun car, too - but it is not a Super Sport! And, to get the thread back on track, the drophead coupe has dual Zenith-Stromberg 175 CD carburetors which are actually quite flexible, but nothing special. 

[lattrm]

Here's a cool one for you. A Miller updraft. Somewhere deep in the catacombs, I have a really nice Miller Master and another modified Miller that looks like an early attempt for fuel injection. It has a large needle valve that opens in concert with the cylindrical air valve to let in fuel from a pressure source. 

[Dandy Dave]

The strangest carburetor I have ever had was on a 1908 Kenwood engine I once owned. It was tall and had the biggest needle valve I have ever seen. That thing in front with the fuel flow sight glass is all carburetor. The needle valve has about a 3 inch knob on top and was about 16 inches long.

 

    

Edited January 6 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[V16]

Hi Carb King, would you elaborate about the DD3 Carb, I have one on my Model J which I have yet to tour with. Should I be looking for trouble or go to a different carb set up? What are the issues with this carb. I know they were used on Chrysler and Lincoln as well, thanks in advance for your insights, Allen

[carbking]

REALLY NICE CAR!

 

The model D (DX, DXR, DXC, DD, DDR) was Stromberg's first attempt at a downdraft carburetor. Basically, it is updraft technology sitting on top of the engine, rather than under it.

 

The carburetors were problematic when new (leaking, idle issues, etc.). Once the model E was released in the early 1930's, Stromberg offered replacement E series carbs to replace all of the O.E. D series.

 

Add that to Ed's post about the lack of carburetor restorers today who can properly restore one today (yours, by the way, is quite nice in appearance, but a coat of paint does not tell one the internal condition).

 

If I had a car as nice and as valuable as the one pictured (I never will, Dad used to tell me I had champayne taste with beer income, and he was/is right) to tour with, I would not leave a DD-3 on my car, and yes, I can (but won't, no longer restoring carbs) restore them.

 

I guess if it were absolutely necessary to leave the DD-3 on the engine, I would want an automatic halon system.

 

Jon

[Joao46]

Hi.

Where do the DD3 leak from? Are they similar in flammability as the much later Holleys used on 57 TBirds? Affectionately known as ‘towering infernos’?
 

Also, what model EE3 would be proper for the 31 Chrysler application?

[Joao46]

One thing I’d be interested in would be literature like drawings or rebuild diagrams on these old carbs. 
Specifically on STROMBERG DD3 or EE3.

[edinmass]

14 hours ago, V16 said:

Hi Carb King, would you elaborate about the DD3 Carb, I have one on my Model J which I have yet to tour with. Should I be looking for trouble or go to a different carb set up? What are the issues with this carb. I know they were used on Chrysler and Lincoln as well, thanks in advance for your insights, Allen

 

 

Mr. V-16......It's nice to see your daughter enjoying the Model J chassis...........will she able to drive it? I would not run the DD3 either. After having tried several different set ups, I would run the Schebler. I just converted J-223 back to a Schebler after it had a EE3 on it for over 50 years. It runs MUCH better than the correct 1 3/8 EE3 which is impossible to find regardless of how much money you have. 

 

 

 

 

[alsancle]

7 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

 

Mr. V-16......It's nice to see your daughter enjoying the Model J chassis...........will she able to drive it? I would not run the DD3 either. After having tried several different set ups, I would run the Schebler. I just converted J-223 back to a Schebler after it had a EE3 on it for over 50 years. It runs MUCH better than the correct 1 3/8 EE3 which is impossible to find regardless of how much money you have. 

 

 

 

 

I see what you did there.

 

Alan,  I'm with Ed.  run the Schebler.   Most of the updraft cars in the Duesenberg tour are running them again and properly tuned they work great.

[V16]

Thanks to you all for the input, and Happy New Year to us all !! May 2024 be an upgrade from the past few years.

[carbking]

11 hours ago, Joao46 said:

One thing I’d be interested in would be literature like drawings or rebuild diagrams on these old carbs. 
Specifically on STROMBERG DD3 or EE3.

Some of the drawings still exist:

 

Jon

[31plymouth]

I know this may not be for this topic, but I didn't get much of a response on a previous thread.

Flipped this thing around 4 times and could not find any markings. 

Any ideas on what this is?

[Layden B]

Appears to be a water heated body and 2 fuel inlets with selector lever on top of the square fuel inlet chamber?

Suggestion is an attempt at a start on gasoline and run on kerosene carburetor. That suggests automotive aftermarket or farm tractor.

[JustDave]

This is a question for carb king,not to get off the subject I know you don’t think much of the tillotson carbs because of the die cast,but how about the replacement tillotson,my 31 devaux has a replacement carb it’s a tillotson jr 2 a are these any better I believe they where sold in the 40s and fifties

[carbking]

Dave - the JR-2A is just one of a series of Tillotson replacement carburetors; we had several which we acquired when buying large lots of carburetors from salvage yards. These came out in the early 1930's. There probably was unsold stock still around in the '40's and '50's.

 

We recycled the ones we had, did not wish to sell them.

 

Jon

 

 

[Terry Harper]

I don't know the model but here in this unfortunately slightly fuzzy photo is the big Stromberg we have on the 1919 model FT Sterling T-head. No idea how rare or desirable but... its a big, wonderful, fuel guzzling beast. The outfit above the carburetor is a rotary style governor valve.

 

[carbking]

The above pictured carburetor is a stromberg NS. They came in a size 5 and also as a size 7.

 

Rarer than winning an argument with the IRS.

 

Desirable ONLY if you need one.

 

Originally designed as a marine carburetor (note the upturned air intake).

 

Jon

[Terry Harper]

14 hours ago, carbking said:

The above pictured carburetor is a stromberg NS. They came in a size 5 and also as a size 7.

 

Rarer than winning an argument with the IRS.

 

Desirable ONLY if you need one.

 

Originally designed as a marine carburetor (note the upturned air intake).

 

Jon

Thank you Jon,

I am sure I speak for all of us when I express my deep appreciation of your knowledge and willingness to share and teach. I had always viewed carburetors as just a necessary appliances when the reality is that there are many interesting backstories and a fascinating history of development.
 

This one is on the tractor version of the Sterling six cylinder model F marine engine. Other than the lubrication system there is very little difference between the two versions - thus the same carb. Fortunately we do have a spare!
 

How do we determine if it’s a size 5 or 7 ? Is it marked on the body like the M series or is it a measurement? Unfortunately the carb is about 3 hours south of me at the moment.

 

Thanks!