Dietrich Individual Customs - 32/33/34

[Steve_Mack_CT]

11 minutes ago, packard12man said:

A couple of Deluxe 8 Conv. Victoria's that I saved off of the internet years ago.  Anyone know the whereabouts of these two cars today or where these photos were taken?

Of note - the 2nd car - headlights, door handles and rad mascot - looks like a possible European delivery!

The possible Euro delivery car sure looks like it is sporting a mid 1950s CT license plate and the background looks like it could be local.

[58L-Y8]

A closer look:

[edinmass]

On 2/8/2023 at 2:28 PM, Matt Harwood said:

 

What else is there after Best of Show at Pebble?

You’re missing the point…….the car was available for years, and none of the major collectors bought it……….do the math. And ask yourself the question again.

[packard12man]

Time to broaden my horizons as I am running low on Dietrich material.  As per the comments about the Holy Grail, you would assume this is on every Packard enthusiast top 5 list.  

 

Photos obtained off of the internet over the years.

 

[West Peterson]

29 minutes ago, packard12man said:

Time to broaden my horizons as I am running low on Dietrich material.  As per the comments about the Holy Grail, you would assume this is on every Packard enthusiast top 5 list.  

 

Photos obtained off of the internet over the years.

 

 

Top 5 list of Duesenberg sedans, too. On which the Twenty Grand would barely make the list, in my opinion.

[ericmac]

2 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

Top 5 list of Duesenberg sedans, too. On which the Twenty Grand would barely make the list, in my opinion.

I'm not sure the Twenty Grand would make the top 5 Duesenberg sedan list at all, at least not in my book. 

[58L-Y8]

I suppose we'll never know for certain who the coach builder was of Alvan Macauley's one-off 1931 Deluxe Eight Sport Sedan.   But as one of the earliest 3-Box sedan configurations, if Ray Dietrich didn't design it himself or have a hand in its creation, I would be surprised.

[edinmass]

One of three…….correct? Plus the REO.

 

[alsancle]

You are correct Ed.  There are 3 on the 145" Packard 845 and 1 on the 148" 848 Royale.

 

 

[58L-Y8]

28 minutes ago, edinmass said:

One of three…….correct? Plus the REO.

 

Ed:

Actually, no, the three Packard Newport and the REO Royale 8-48 Sport Sedans, although proportionately analogous to the one-off, the subtle differences in details that set the one-off as unique.  It has been compared more closely to the Monte Carlo sedans by Weymann.

Steve

Edited February 18, 2023 by 58L-Y8
corrected syntax errors (see edit history)

[alsancle]

2 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Ed:

Actually, no, the three Packard Newport and the REO Royale 8-48 Sport Sedans, although proportionately analogous to the one-off, the subtle differences in details that set the one-off as unique.  It has been compared more closely to the Monte Carlo sedans by Weymann.

Steve

 

I'm with you Steve,  Dietrich designed it and it was the precursor to the 4 bodies that came a bit later which are slightly different.

[packard12man]

Question for the Dietrich experts.  

 

Curious to know the amount of aluminum used by Dietrich - I'm pretty sure the doors are skinned in aluminum, but I wondering was the cowl, gas tank apron, rumble seat lid and parts

of the body shell also aluminum?  And is there a difference between the open cars vs the closed cars in materials used?  

[jeff_a]

On 1/31/2023 at 8:13 AM, arcticbuicks said:

I wish i was a 17 year old son of the owner of a brand new 1934 packard 12 convertible back in the day ......and when the parents went to bed on friday night i ring up my buddies and they come over and unhook the speedo then help quietly push the beast out of the garage and down the street so we don't wake up the folks........then pile in and hit the road with a bottle of bootleg cruising the backroads all night racing some art deco locomotive to the crossing and off to some roaring 30s music dance place........and back by 3 am

Some things my Dad said give me the impression he did that with an Auburn Boattail Speedster, only it wasn't his Dad's, and joyriding became more of an Army enlistment...

Edited March 2, 2023 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

A little out of the age range, here are two Dietrich Packards competing in the very first Great American Race, 40 yearago in May. Gene Cofer's 1929 645 Dietrich Dual Cowl Phaeton

Curtis Graf's 1935  Dietrich 1208 Convertible.

This was the 1983 Greatrace to the Indianapolis 500.   2800 miles of backroads and great cars.  Including Packards, Bentleys, Cord, Cadillac,

Duesenberg J,, Pierce  Arrow, Rols Royce, Model A & Early V8 Fords, Auburn, Buick, Mercedes, American La france, Lincoln, Studebaker. LaSalle. Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth, Chevrolet, Moon and others I never heard of, all PreWWII..   It was the most exciting thing ever on the antique car hobby.   I quicly signed up for a 'Once in a Lifetime Adventure" in 1984 to experience it.   In 1984 they changed to rules to 1936 & earlier because the late 30's & early 40's cars dominated the competition.   

In 1987 I went back for the first renewal of 10 renewals of my Once in a Lifetime Adventure.   Didn't get rich, but had the time of my life.

I wonder where all those cars are now.

[West Peterson]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:07 PM, Paul Dobbin said:

A little out of the age range, here are two Dietrich Packards

 

They're not Individual Customs, either. Those are production bodies.

[West Peterson]

On 1/31/2023 at 10:13 AM, arcticbuicks said:

I wish i was a 17 year old son of the owner of a brand new 1934 packard 12 convertible back in the day ......and when the parents went to bed on friday night i ring up my buddies and they come over and unhook the speedo then help quietly push the beast out of the garage and down the street so we don't wake up the folks........then pile in and hit the road with a bottle of bootleg cruising the backroads all night racing some art deco locomotive to the crossing and off to some roaring 30s music dance place........and back by 3 am

There's one flaw in your story: Since Packard Twelves are whisper silent, there would be no need to "quietly push the beast out of the garage and down the street so we don't wake up the folks."

[arcticbuicks]

good point......but wouldn't be as fun 

[packard12man]

Looking for some of the experts to comment on the 34 Packard Town Car in the upcoming Mark Smith Auction.  

 

I realize Town Cars are about as low as you can go on the collectability scale - BUT the more I look at the photos the more I like it.  Auction estimate is 40-60K which in my opinion it is worth more than that in parts.  The cost of restoration would probably be double or triple the selling price of the finished product.  Ed Blend states that in his opinion only one was produced.  Going through my files I thought I had come across a 2nd car - my thought being the chrome rad shell and European headlights.  Then I spotted a rotary club decal on the windshield so obviously it's the same car.  Gooding's site gives very little info as to the history but apparently it spent some of its life in France and then Mexico.   If I was 20 years younger and not a tractor mechanic Id buy it myself just to save it from becoming a parts car!  Ed Blend also stated that it is a Dietrich design built in the Packard custom body shop and marketed and labeled as a LeBaron.  "I'm confused"  

 

After discussion with the wife, she's says I can't buy it - so it's up to someone else to save it.

 

[alsancle]

Those estimates are a weird combination of incredibly low (there are 10 cars I will buy right now at low estimate)  and some crazy optimism (Chrysler, 500K).

 

I expect a feeding frenzy,  even given that none are running and Gooding includes the following which will inhibit retail buyers:

 

However, as set forth more fully in the Conditions of Sale, neither the Estate nor Gooding makes any representation or warranty with respect to any existing certificate of title or registration with regard to any Lot in the Auction. Any Lot may be sold on a Bill of Sale. By participating in this Auction, all bidders and buyers recognize that Estate and Gooding have expressly disclaimed all such warranties concerning the availability or sufficiency of any title or registration documentation

[West Peterson]

Did Packard call it a "town car" or is that Ed Blend's definition? Usually with blanked-out quarters, Packard called those All Weather Cabriolets. However, this one being on the long wheelbase, perhaps town car is the proper definition.

 

What a fantastic looking car. Gotta give Mark credit for getting the wood wheel spokes and grille shell back to black.

 

I would also disagree that town cars are on the bottom rung in regard to collectibility. They are usually above most sedans.

[packard12man]

Eagerly awaiting this new book on the life and times of Ray Dietrich.  

 

 

[West Peterson]

Who's publishing this?

[John Bloom]

On 3/11/2023 at 3:49 PM, West Peterson said:

Did Packard call it a "town car" or is that Ed Blend's definition? Usually with blanked-out quarters, Packard called those All Weather Cabriolets. However, this one being on the long wheelbase, perhaps town car is the proper definition.

 

What a fantastic looking car. Gotta give Mark credit for getting the wood wheel spokes and grille shell back to black.

 

I would also disagree that town cars are on the bottom rung in regard to collectibility. They are usually above most sedans.

I guess each individual can speak about what "rung on the ladder" a specific body type is.......but my tastes typically put a town car above a 7 pass sedan or closed Limousine.   There are always exceptions to my "rules on taste"....frequently I violate them myself.  

 

Excited to see this auction kick off and follow the results.  I'm hoping they are all bought by the cast of characters on this forum and they share all the details and pics of their new treasure.  

 

Oops, sorry for co-mingling my thoughts on this thread as well as the Mark Smith auction. Let me find my nurse and get back on my meds....

 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by John Bloom (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

More info on the Dietrich book would be great if anyone has it, note it references being initially written in 1981, as well as having contributions by R. Burns Carson who I believe wrote Olympian Cars in that time frame or earlier.  So it seems someone has been able to take and update it w/more current research?

 

Will find some buyers here I assume.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

More info on the Dietrich book would be great if anyone has it, note it references being initially written in 1981, as well as having contributions by R. Burns Carson who I believe wrote Olympian Cars in that time frame or earlier.  So it seems someone has been able to take and update it w/more current research?

And also, hopefully photos of cars that have been restored since 1981.

 

Craig

[packard12man]

In regards to the upcoming Dietrich book, it is being published by Dalton Watson Fine Books.  Unsure of the original date as I have seen reference to 1961 and 1981.  Possibly the book was written and never published!!  If it was 1961 both the text and photos should prove interesting as Dietrich and many of his contemporaries were still alive with 1st hand knowledge of the era.  Below is the link to the website where I became aware of the book.

 

https://www.daltonwatson.com/Raymond-Henri-Dietrich-Automotive-Architect-p/dietrich.htm

 

In relation to the Smith Auction regarding the '34 Town Car, you are right Packard marketed it as an All Weather Cabriolet.  When I mentioned that it was low on the totem pole of collectability I was comparing it to the other individual customs not the factory sedans.  Does anybody have any guesses as to the hammer price?

[edinmass]

The gentleman who wrote Detroit Steel recently is thinking about a Dietrich book also. Spoke to him about it. If it gets done, it will probably be a few years away.

[philip roitman]

On 1/9/2023 at 6:56 PM, Gunsmoke said:

This thread is so interesting, educational, and humorous at times and the photos are wonderful, I'm almost turning into a Packard Fan. Such a welcome relief from some of the provocative nonsense of many recent postings. I could read this type of stuff all day. 

Exactly what I was thinking and we are less than halfway through the thread. Thank you all for the education on these cars  and looking forward to reading the rest of this thread. Brings me back to seeing some really old cars getting restored back in the day when I was very young, I didn't really get it appreciate and fully understand what I was seeing in person. Live and learn. Was too preoccupied later with post and some pre war sports cars, Racing cars and modern for the day muscle. Really thanks again. So much to learn with so little time to try to digest fully. I can now see how this would/could take a lifetime. All the many automotive books I have still do not compare to what I learn in this forum. This may sound silly, but I love this forum and AACA. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by philip roitman (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

This appears to be a former 1932 Deluxe Eight Individual Custom convertible victoria. 1935-37 headlights. Not sure if this is Wolcott, Conn. or N.Y.

[Cadillac Fan]

6 hours ago, West Peterson said:

This appears to be a former 1932 Deluxe Eight Individual Custom convertible victoria. 1935-37 headlights. Not sure if this is Wolcott, Conn. or N.Y.

 

 

Could that be this one?

 

 

 

This car’s original cowl plate indicates it was delivered new on September 30, 1931, by LeBoutillier & Dolan, the Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, dealer. When purchased by Gene Rouse in the mid-1970s, it had been much modified; the body was sectioned about two inches, with other metal reconfigured to suit, and a number of inappropriate parts were installed. Subsequent owner Jackson Brooks dismantled the car while considering the best way to proceed with a restoration. The matching original engine, number 194200, and chassis, number 194181, were sold to an Oklahoma collector at a point when Brooks was considering transferring the body to a V-12 chassis, which would’ve been allowed by the CCCA rules of the day, but they were ultimately properly reunited with the Dietrich body, number 5468.

The partially restored engine, chassis, and body were turned over to Colorado restorer Mark Clayton. His meticulous work was capped off with the original Packard data plate, vehicle number 904-95. On its first outing, a CCCA national meet in Dallas, it scored 100 points and earned First Junior honors, followed soon by First Senior at Albuquerque, and the car was further honored with a CCCA Senior, medallion number 20075. After a short succession of owners, the car passed to John O’Quinn, from whose estate it is now offered.

Very handsome in deep maroon, it has tan leather upholstery and a tan canvas top. Despite the fact that the restoration is now more than a decade old, it presents very well, with virtually no signs of use or wear. Convertible victorias are among the most prized of Full Classic Packards, with the Dietrich-built cars most of all. This car, with its remarkable rebirth, is in a class of its own.

 

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/sj13/st--john-s/lots/r106-1932-packard-individual-custom-eight-convertible-victoria-by-dietrich/293648

Edited April 27, 2023 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[edinmass]

 

 

Interesting wording on the "story", and that folks is the difference from a car that brings all the money and ends up in a world class collection, and a car collection that is put together by a new to the hobby checkbook collector who can't figure out why he can't trophy or sell the car for what he has in it. We call it curating a collection. 95 percent of the stuff out there has a similar "story". Caveat emptor. 

[Cadillac Fan]

Here is the red 1932 Victoria before being sold recently.  
 

A very interesting Packard in the background.
 

 

On display at the Gilmore car museum in Hickory Corners MI

Edited April 27, 2023 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[bryankazmer]

On 2/9/2023 at 6:45 PM, Steve_Mack_CT said:

The possible Euro delivery car sure looks like it is sporting a mid 1950s CT license plate and the background looks like it could be local.

and a 48-50 hood ornament

[West Peterson]

20 hours ago, Cadillac Fan said:

 

 

Could that be this one?

 

 

 

This car’s original cowl plate indicates it was delivered new on September 30, 1931, by LeBoutillier & Dolan, the Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, dealer. When purchased by Gene Rouse in the mid-1970s, it had been much modified; the body was sectioned about two inches, with other metal reconfigured to suit, and a number of inappropriate parts were installed. Subsequent owner Jackson Brooks dismantled the car while considering the best way to proceed with a restoration. The matching original engine, number 194200, and chassis, number 194181, were sold to an Oklahoma collector at a point when Brooks was considering transferring the body to a V-12 chassis, which would’ve been allowed by the CCCA rules of the day, but they were ultimately properly reunited with the Dietrich body, number 5468.

The partially restored engine, chassis, and body were turned over to Colorado restorer Mark Clayton. His meticulous work was capped off with the original Packard data plate, vehicle number 904-95. On its first outing, a CCCA national meet in Dallas, it scored 100 points and earned First Junior honors, followed soon by First Senior at Albuquerque, and the car was further honored with a CCCA Senior, medallion number 20075. After a short succession of owners, the car passed to John O’Quinn, from whose estate it is now offered.

Very handsome in deep maroon, it has tan leather upholstery and a tan canvas top. Despite the fact that the restoration is now more than a decade old, it presents very well, with virtually no signs of use or wear. Convertible victorias are among the most prized of Full Classic Packards, with the Dietrich-built cars most of all. This car, with its remarkable rebirth, is in a class of its own.

 

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/sj13/st--john-s/lots/r106-1932-packard-individual-custom-eight-convertible-victoria-by-dietrich/293648

Anyone know where this car ended up? And the red one?

[Matt Goist]

I am just finding this thread now, I should check these forums more often. I'll contribute this one for now, as I do not think it has been posted yet. Pretty well known car. Ex-Otis Chandler

One of three 1933 Sport Phaetons ever built, currently receiving some long overdue maintenance by yours truly. 

 

I have heard that all three made appearances at major 1933 auto shows. I would like to confirm where this one potentially went, if anyone has history to share privately or publicly. 

For that matter, any history anyone has to share on this example or any of the 1933 Sport Phaetons is greatly appreciated. 

 

Briggs Cunningham owned a '33 Sport Phaeton, now in the REVS Institute, still in the same condition/restoration when owned by Briggs. This is the Blue one. 

I believe the third remaining one (painted green at one point) also lives out here in CA, sharing floorspace with the survivor '33 convertible runabout. 

[Matt Goist]

And another worthwhile share, and another Ex-Otis Chandler car, coming up for sale once again. 

This one wore whitewalls up until about two weeks ago. 

 

@edinmass is correct, its always a good sign to have rock solid history back to the earliest day possible. This one is no exception, and it really delivers. It will be interesting to see what it brings compared to the 1934 that sold recently in Amelia. 

Personally, I think the Blackwalls help this one, but I would really love to see it back in its original two-tone green. The chassis is black, its almost like that was already in the plan for it someday 🙂 

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo23/monterey/lots/r0003-1933-packard-twelve-individual-custom-convertible-victoria-by-dietrich/1329681 

[West Peterson]

I'm not a fan of the green, nor the two-tone of this car when new. These cars look much better all one color. The black tires sure changed the look of this car for the better. 

[Matt Goist]

6 hours ago, West Peterson said:

I'm not a fan of the green, nor the two-tone of this car when new. These cars look much better all one color. The black tires sure changed the look of this car for the better. 

I could be convinced on a single shade of green, or just painting the rims, or...just driving it!! 🙂 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Matt Goist (see edit history)

[Cadillac Fan]

I would leave the color alone and just drive it.   By the way, the black walls look great. 
 

 

there are two other individual customs for sale in Monterey this August:

 

 

Mecum is still trying to sell this convertible sedan again:

 

 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/1085261/1934-packard-1108-twelve-dietrich-individual-custom-convertible-sedan/

Edited July 14, 2023 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[Cadillac Fan]

And Gooding has this one:

 

 

https://www.goodingco.com/lot/1934-packard-twelve-model-1108-individual-custom-convertible-sedan/?filtersInput[make][0]=Packard&filtersInput[auctionType][0]=Live Auction&filtersInput[auctionYear][0]=2023&filtersInput[liveAuctionVenue][0]=Pebble Beach&sortBy=ENDING_SOONEST&pageNumber=0

Edited July 14, 2023 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)