OH CRAP!! NOW WHAT?

[Str8-8-Dave]

17 minutes ago, drovak said:

My understanding was that at cold temperature, it will perform like an SAE 20W would when cold, and at hot temperatures, it will perform like an SAE 50 would when hot. Obviously, it will be more viscous when cold than hot, but it will be more viscous at hot temperatures than a straight SAE 20W would.

 

Honest boy scout that I am, I'm going to eat some crow.  According to articles I just read drovak is right and I am wrong. The W in multi viscosity oil stands for Winter, not weight and the number before the W is supposed to represent how the oil will flow at winter temperatures.  The number after the W represents how the oil is supposed to flow when hot.  So I got it backwards and I'm sorry if I mis-lead anyone.  Here is an article I copied from a Castrol website that explains this.

 

Again- sorry for the misinformation, I am the one who was misinformed in this case.

 

Dave

 

 

Viscosity is the resistance to flow of a fluid. Motor oil viscosity grades are based on a scale developed by the API (American Petroleum Institute) lubricant organization. The values are defined in a specification known as API 1509 and are based on the resistance the oil gives to flowing at two different temperatures – cold and high temperature. The measurement of viscosity at high and low temperatures are properties of multi-grade oils. Years ago, most vehicles used one viscosity grade oil in the summer and a different viscosity grade oil in the winter. But as motor oil technology advanced, additives such as viscosity index improvers allowed for the use of the same grade of oil year-round.

 

The low temperature viscosity of the oil is a measurement that simulates starting a car on a cold winter day. That value has the letter “W” after the number and has a dash after the W. For example, if the oil is a 5W-30, the 5W part describes the viscosity of the oil at low temperatures. The lower the number, the faster the oil will flow at vehicle start up.

 

The high temperature viscosity is the number after the dash and is related to the viscosity of the oil as it is moving around your engine after the car has warmed up and is at normal engine temperature. In the 5W-30 example, the 30 defines the viscosity of the oil at normal engine temperatures. Again, the lower the number, the lower the viscosity of the oil and the faster the oil will move around the engine.

 

As an example, let’s compare 5W-20, 5W-30 and 10W-30 motor oils. A 5W-20 and 5W-30 will have very similar if not equal viscosity at lower start-up temperatures. But as the engine heats up, the 5W-20 will move with less resistance than an 5W-30. Less resistance results in improved fuel economy but the oil is not as thick and forms a smaller layer of protection between metal surfaces. If we compare a 5W-30 and a 10W-30, they will behave very similarly as the engine heats up, but at start-up, the 5W-30 will provide less resistance and start easier than the 10W-30. The 5W-20 will have a lower viscosity and provide less resistance than the 10W-30 at both start-up and normal engine operating temperatures.

 

In the past, it was common for vehicles to require higher viscosity oils such as 20W-50’s, 10W-40’s and 10W-30’s. But as engine technology has advanced over the years, the size of engines and pathways in engine that oil flows through have gotten smaller and thinner. This has led over time to motor oil viscosity decreasing – currently 5W-30 and 5W-20 are the most popular grade and 0W-20 is the fastest growing grade. These lower viscosity motor oils are needed to move through the thin engine pathways to protect and clean metal surfaces.  Lower viscosity motor oils also result in better fuel economy.

[Terry Wiegand]

I'm really sorry that this discussion has turned into a 'You're wrong for using 20W50 oil'.  I do not believe for one second that the oil could cause the spring to break.  I want to call everyone's attention to the enlarged photo of the drive spring and the very tight bends on both ends.  Do I think that this could be a cause for any breakage in that area?  I most certainly do.  I'm in the process of getting the oil pump removed from the pan.  If the spring is broken, then that is the answer as to why no oil is coming into the sight gauge.  Let's wait and see what is found.  Please keep this thought in mind - it was a degree or two away from 60 degrees on the day that the problem was discovered.  This cannot be blamed on cold weather because it simply wasn't cold.  And another person states that they had the same issue with this spring and no mention of engine oil causing the breakage.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

Edited December 7, 2022 by Terry Wiegand
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION (see edit history)

[1937McBuick]

Let's add another factor.

Is it possible the tensile strength of the spring material is so high that it is brittle?   Take it a step further,  so brittle that the tight bend compromised its integrity.  

 

I am not an engineer either but maybe that spring material wasn't suited for the job at hand,  or worse yet,  the material wasn't "conditioned"(heat?????) properly to accommodate that sharp bend.  It may have been compromised the second after it was formed.  

 

And rotating torque in my opinion is different than compression load only.   This had both but was supposed to be designed mainly for rotating torque.

 

Back to the drawing board?

 

Edit in,   it may be a combination of more than one factor.  Improper spring material and too heavy weight oil.   Maybe the spring was under heavier load than it should have been until the oil warmed up.  Maybe the spring was chattering/vibrating trying to move heavier weight oil.  That spring is a definite flexible link between the drive gear and oil pump.

 

The solution is not have it happen again!  Changing/improving what ever caused the failure.

Edited December 7, 2022 by 1937McBuick (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

Mr. McBuick,

I have the oil draining from the pan as I write this.  It was 57 degrees inside my shop building when I pulled the drain plugs.  The oil did not run out like water, but it did not flow like cold molasses either.  I just spoke with the folks at the spring company and I let them know that when I get the oil pump removed and if indeed this is the problem I will be sending the spring down to them.  I was also told that once the springs are completely formed then they go through a shot peening process.  There could have been a fracture in the very center of the bend.  They are pretty sure that they will be able to determine what happened once they have it in hand.  I want to clarify something else that I stated earlier and was questioned on.  The guys at Abrahams Machine in Davenport have been rebuilding old engines like this for decades.  They know what they are doing.  I had spoke with Dave (manager/owner)quite a few times during the process and he explained a lot of things in detail about what was going on with our engine.  He told me that a lot of people do not know that there are differences in bearing clearances between an insert bearing engine and an engine that has poured bearings.  They knew what was required for our engine and they added .0002" to .0004: additional clearance in the bearings.  There was no mistake in what I stated and I hope that Larry Schramm reads this.  To say that this was a learning experience all the way through would be a huge understatement.  As I stated earlier, I do not think that the oil I used played any part in this, but we are going to find out just what is going on.  I think that you hit upon something in talking about the material.  I'll keep you guys posted and photos also.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[1937McBuick]

THE BIG REVEAL.....

Drum roll please.....

Waiting in anticipation with bated breath.

Let's have a standing ovation for an encore performance from Terry!

 

Ya I know,  that seems a little over the top.

[cxgvd]

For your information, the mechanic who made my replacement spring bent the sharp bends at the ends of the springs cold, and I run straight 30W in my antique engines.

 

Regards, Gary

[redbaron1930]

Terry;

  FYI, I run 15-40 in my '16 in cold weather and warm. I made a new oil pump spring about 5 years ago and it still works fine (I just bought a long spring from Mcmaster-carr and re bent the ends). I had to heat the ends to get a good bend in them. You need to be careful because if you get them too hot they can become very brittle. Just control the cool down of the spring and you will be fine!

  BTW you do not need to drop the pan to get the spring out, just the screen.

[redbaron1930]

Thinking back, I believe I reheated the spring ends till they were a bluish color and let them air cool from there.

[Terry Wiegand]

We had a beautifully warm late Fall day today and I dropped the oil pump out of the pan.  The problem was as suspected - the drive spring.  I simply wasn't ready for what I found.  The spring did not break, but appears to have come unwound.  Now, get this, the oil pump is just as free and smooth as the day the guys at the shop put things together.  I am still going to take it apart, clean it all up, and check things out very carefully.  Has anyone ever seen anything like this happen before?  Now, the other crazy thing about this is that the messed up end of the spring is on the top end (or the bottom end of the camshaft drive).  To look at this in a logical manner it would make a person think that the oil pump gears locked up - but they were free when the pump was taken out of the pan.  I took the trouble light and a mirror to look up inside the crankcase and everything appears as it should be.  I believe the problem to be with the spring.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918 

[Str8-8-Dave]

In the old days working in a gas station we had a 61 or so Ford Falcon with 144cu in 6 that suddenly lost oil pressure.  We removed the distributor and out came with it the oil pump drive shaft, a fairly well hardened 1/4 or 3/8 diameter hexagonal shaft, one end plugged into the bottom of the distributor rotor shaft, the other into the drive shaft in the oil pump.   The once straight lined hexagonal shaft was twisted like a pretzel.  When we got the oil pump out of the car it was locked up solid with a shard of hardened rubber valve guide seal that had broken off the valve guide, dropped into the oil pan and that shard was small enough to get past the pickup screen on the pump.  We found other shards of it still stuck in the screen.   So in that case a very thin piece of hardened rubber was all it took to lock up the oil pump. 

[1937McBuick]

Who knows,  maybe a chunk of epoxy or what ever is on the screen came loose and temporarily lodged in the pump?

 

Let us know what you find.

[Rock10]

Is there an up and down on the spring?

Would one way twist it tighter and the other way looser?

[Terry Wiegand]

Looking at the engineering drawing and holding the spring in the position that it is in in the engine, one can see right away that the spring was wound in the correct orientation to the way the drawing calls out.  I think it is safe to say that that issue is not where the problem is.  I'm sending the spring down to Tulsa the first thing Monday morning.  I will let everyone know what they tell me after they have had the chance to check things out.  I am just happy that there was no damage done to the pump or the innards of the engine.  I will check the pump over very carefully.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[EmTee]

I'm with @1937McBuick.  It seems that something caused the pump to stall momentarily.  After you disassemble and inspect it, please let us know what you find...

[Brian_Heil]

Do you have the spring detail drawing or an assembly drawing?

 

If the detail drawing, it will call out left hand or right hand wind. Regardless if drawn correctly or incorrectly. 
 

Is your new spring wound in the same direction as the one you took out?

 

Based on drive direction does the spring wind up or unwind when driven?

[redbaron1930]

Terry; Something else to think about is that, you should also check the length, the spring should have at least one full turn around the slotted shafts on each end and be fairly tight around the shaft. Makes it more difficult to install but it is more stable that way than if too loose or only a partial turn on the shaft.

  Good luck

                Andy

[Terry Wiegand]

I drug my magnet through the pan of drained oil with absolutely nothing being picked up.  Just one more thing to go through in the process of elimination.  I am going to get the oil pump taken apart tomorrow and see if that will reveal anything.  When I dropped it down yesterday afternoon the shaft and gears were just as free as could be.  I am still leaning towards the spring material being the problem.  Will keep everyone advised.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[Jolly_John]

This has been the best "detective story" topic I've read during my 16 years or so here on the forum. Thank you for sharing, and for keeping us updated on your progress, Terry. And, of course, good luck in getting to the bottom of the problem. John

[raydurr]

Terry, I am glad that you are making progress. I know that I am about to get blasted for my prediction of your problems. I am leaning towards too heavy of oil overloading the oil pump drive, especially at cold temperatures. I continue to wish you luck.

[Terry Wiegand]

I took the oil pump apart this afternoon and I did not find any evidence of anything there that should not be there.  I want to get a little warmer day with some sunshine and get things all washed up.  I will then check the clearance on the gears.  Both sides of the gear teeth looked to be in perfect condition.  The last time the car was driven the thermometer was knockin' on 60 degrees.  That simply is not cold out here in Doo Dah.  Action Spring will have the spring on Wednesday.  It is going to be interesting what they come up with regard to the material.  I'm simply not finding anything wrong with the engine mechanically at this point.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[MCHinson]

Terry,

 

What material is that visible on one side of the oil pump screen?  It looks like JB Weld, MarineTex or some similar material. I would guess that a small fragment of that material likely broke loose from the screen and momentarily caused the oil pump to seize.Personally, I would remove that material and braze the mesh screen together. I would also be sure to flush out every drop of oil in the pan or else drop the pan and clean it out to make sure there is not any trace of that fragment to do it again. I would also have them make not 1, but 2 new springs. It would be nice to have a spare one with you if this ever happens again on a tour.  

[Terry Wiegand]

Matt,  I believe that the green material that is on the screen is some sort of epoxy material.  I tried to contact the engine builder at Abrahams today and he was not going to be in until later in the week.  I want to talk with him about just what went on with this pump during the rebuild.  I spoke with him quite a few times during the rebuild process.  I remember him telling me that the bottom plate was really nice (no scoring) and all that they did was lightly lap it before putting it back together.  We are going to have three springs when this is all done and over with.  Before I go to all the work to drop the oil pan I want to hear what the folks at Action Spring have to say.  I know that this last photo does not show it well, but the pump insides were as clean as a whistle.  A person would think that if something did get into the gears and caused the spring to unwind and stop the pump action, then it would seem logical that whatever it was it would still be there - instead, nothing.  Andy's thought about the overall length of the spring could possibly have some merit.  Right now, there are unknowns about that spring - material condition and certain measurements need to be out in the open.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[DonMicheletti]

You mentioned that the pump turned freely when you removed it.

Is it possible that in rotating the drive, you may have dislodged whatever may have jammed the pump, came out and moved somewhere else. You did mention that the gears were great, so even a very small chunk of crap could have jammed it.

[1937McBuick]

Terry,  do you still have the original spring?

A clear picture of the two side by side would be nice.

 

Edit in:   I just added in the screenshot again.   The two springs "look" alot alike but a side by side comparison would be best.  But was curious if the first coil after the sharp bend on the top and bottom were right tight to the next coil beside it....  forming more of a circle then regular winding after that.

 

Is it possible to see where the bent tab of the new spring was riding in the upper and lower slots?   Is it possible it was riding too close to the open end of the slot and popped out?   The issue could have been made worse if the spring compressed itself and became shorter when it was subjected to torque.

Edited December 13, 2022 by 1937McBuick (see edit history)

[edinmass]

 

I do NOT like the epoxy on that pump......for any reason. It's a poorly done shortcut. I recommend resolving it before you reinstall. Just my 2 cents. 

[1937McBuick]

Regarding the epoxy,    i don't know if this would have been possible but weaving wire through that overlap may have been a better option.  Maybe even around the circumference.   And someone suggested brazing/soldering the overlap as well.    There could have been many noodle shaped pieces of epoxy on the inside of the screen,  maybe some let go?

 

Best of luck with your detective work.

Edited December 13, 2022 by 1937McBuick (see edit history)

[redbaron1930]

When I replaced the oil pump screen on my '16, I had a 3/16 overlap and used Staybrite solder. It's a silver solder but still a low temp soft solder (450F).

[Terry Wiegand]

I do not have the original spring.  I think that the spring folks probably still have it.  It was sent to them so that the new one could be made from its dimensions.  The new spring was sent directly to Abrahams Machine.  After spending almost 20 years in aircraft quality control I have learned a thing or two about looking for problems.  This situation certainly has me scratching my head and wondering just what happened.  With over 400 miles on the car since the engine rebuild, things are just not adding up like a person would think.  I still want to hear what the spring company has to say.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[Oldtech]

To me, looking at that spring, it looks like an overload and that it wound up, which shortened it but must have hung on to the drive end until it pulled off.  You may never find the culprit but I'm still thinking 10 -30 oil would be better. 15 -40 at most.  

[Rock10]

I can't believe it was oil weight. What did the original oil flow like when it was below zero back in the day?

[redbaron1930]

21 minutes ago, Rock10 said:

I can't believe it was oil weight. What did the original oil flow like when it was below zero back in the day?

I'm with Rock10 on this, I really believe the devil is in the detail of the fit and temper of this spring!

[Terry Wiegand]

I got all of the pieces that make up the pump assembly washed up this afternoon.  There was no evidence of damage anywhere on the teeth of both gears.  No evidence of damage in the gears pocket or bottom plate.  This makes me think that nothing metal went through that pump.  We're going to look at one more thing when my son-in-law stops by after work.  He is going to run the crank handle and I am going to look up into the crankcase and watch the shaft rotation that runs off the camshaft.  If that is good, then it pretty well narrows it down to the spring and something about the material.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[DonMicheletti]

Terry,

Another remote possibility. That pump does not have a pressure relief valve. If one of the oil passages was to plug, the oil pressure would rise until something breaks.

 

All the lines are large - except the little squirter hole that "drives" the pimwheel on the dash oil indicator. If that were to plug, oil pressure would rise to whatever.

Any plug downstream from that would cause the gage glass to leak or break.

 

Just a thought - so far no smoking gun.

[deac]

Is that epoxy substance pliable or is it rock hard? If it's pliable could it affected the operation of the pump cause the spring to be over stressed?  I think that epoxy type substance and the unwound spring are the two essential issues here. Oil weight issues are secondary.

[EmTee]

39 minutes ago, deac said:

Is that epoxy substance pliable or is it rock hard?

What is it like in 200* F motor oil?

[Morgan Wright]

I can't imagine spring steel going out of shape like that over a little oil pump that isn't even jammed. Spring steel (manganese steel) is one of the toughest things this side of Chuck Norris. I would try bending the spring and stretching it etcetera and see how tough it is. If you can deform it in any way, it's not good steel. Ask them for the original one back and use it.

[Terry Wiegand]

I have some help lined up with that screen material and how to replace it with better fastening of the ends together.  I simply did not realize just what was there until I got things washed up real good.  Here are a couple of good close-up views  of the screen and why this needs to be taken care of before it goes back in the oil pan.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[1937McBuick]

Terry,  is there a groove for a wire in that assembly at the other end of the screen too?

It would be nice to find another piece of screen and start over.    A larger piece should be used and the two ends could have the excess trimmed off after the wire around the circumference was used to secure it in place.   Even the overlap could be loosely stitched together with wire looped through the screen in several places,  then slip the screen on and then the wires tightened and trimmed after its in its place.  Solder too?

 

Getting the original mesh screen under the wire might be a challenge if it's barely long enough.   

Seems you guys south of the border can find and have access to just about anything.   That woven metal screen material is probably available somewhere.    A lot of times, finding stuff north of the Canada/US  border is like Unicorn hunting,  unless I'm just not looking in the right places!

 

Best of luck.

 

 

[wmsue]

I haven't been a part of this discussion but I do like to watch how a good detective story plays out.

'1937McBuick' has a good point. Solder the ends instead of using adhesive.

Both the oil pickup and the gas tank of my Willys have screens for filtering.

The screens I used look to be a finer mesh but the principle is the same. I purchased the new screens from McMaster Carr.

 

Bill

[Terry Wiegand]

wmsue,  Thank You for the very good photos and the information on where to obtain screen material like what you used.  It has to be kept in mind that the screen on my oil pump is approaching 108 years old and I personally did not help it any during the clean-up and the handling.  Things are underway to get this part of the pump replaced.  As I think everyone knows, this is a non-pressurized oiling system and the pump is simply a means of circulating the oil in the pan to feed the rod dippers and the main bearings.  I would hope that the very fine screen material would not slow down the oil flow into the pump.  Mr. Marr and his engineering team did a fantastic job in designing these engines back in the day and they built 100's of 1,000's of engines using this technology, and it worked very well.  Getting to the bottom of the problem is simply a matter of elimination of the possibilities.  My son-in-law and I eliminated one more possible area yesterday afternoon. We know that the drive shaft running off the back end of the camshaft is OK.  Cranking the engine by hand showed that the shaft runs just fine.  I am leaning more and more to the material in the spring as the culprit.  The thermometer took a serious dive here last night and it is colder than a witches t#t this morning.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918