ramair Posted December 15, 2022 Share Posted December 15, 2022 Terry, if you order new screen material please do not go much finer than what you already have. We would refer to the size you have as a “rock catcher” , if you go to fine you know what will happen at the temperatures in your neck of the woods! The other issue might be way off in the future some new owner might not change oil often enough and then comes the sludge. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kikta Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 Terry, I also bought my screen material from McMaster-Carr. My screen is not the same but it soldered up nice when I redid my screen. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937McBuick Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 Any new news Terry? Christmas and New Year's can slow things down alot. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted January 4, 2023 Author Share Posted January 4, 2023 I did speak with the folks at Action Spring before Christmas and we are going to get together sometime later this week. There is a real good possibility that it has been figured out what happened. I don't want to say too much just yet because I still have a few questions about how the spring was made. Once this has been talked out I think the issue will be resolved so that it will never happen again. More later. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock10 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 A cliff hanger! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted January 5, 2023 Author Share Posted January 5, 2023 We think the problem has been solved and know what happened. I will ask you to go back in this posting and look carefully at the sectional view drawing where the oil pump spring is shown. The original pump spring was straight ID and OD wise. Here is where things get confusing. The upper shaft that drives off the camshaft has a larger diameter with the spring slot. Going by what can be measured from the drawing (keep in mind that the drawing is full scale) it was determined that that end of the shaft measures .750" in diameter. The upper end of the shaft that drives the pump gears measures .6875" (or 11/16"). Here is where the problem was. The Inside diameter of the new spring measures .745" The spring did not slip over the end of the upper shaft far enough to fully engage the cross section into the slot. The guys made a piece like what it was supposed to be and it was discovered that that was where things hung up. The new spring(s) will be made with an inside diameter of .765" and this is going to be exactly what is needed. We have all heard that old saying that the Good Lord looks after drunks and fools, well, I ain't no drunk. Guess where that leaves me. The Good Lord was watching over us on the Red Flag Tour. We are so thankful that this did not decide to happen going down the road at 30 miles per hour. We should have some new springs sometime around the middle to latter part of February. Too cold to be on a creeper on the concrete floor anyway. Photos when the springs arrive. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 5, 2023 Share Posted January 5, 2023 So, you're saying that it was just spring tension (or friction) between the upper drive shaft and the top of the spring that was driving the oil pump? If so, what finally happened was the spring slipped off the upper shaft? In any case, as you said, good thing it happened now and you have a fix in the works. Nothing is ever as easy as it seems... Maybe you can use a spare pump shaft, or make a dummy shaft to fit the spring to the drive shaft to ensure that the tang on the new spring will engage properly before installing the pump. Or, install the pump with the cover off and idler gear removed so that you can confirm that the tangs are engaged before installing the 'guts' into the pump body. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted January 5, 2023 Share Posted January 5, 2023 Great news Terry, this story has the best outcome, car wasn't hurt more important, people were not hurt. It's good you were paying attention, you saved your car. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted January 5, 2023 Author Share Posted January 5, 2023 The thing that just blows my mind is the fact that there is over 400 miles on the engine before this decides to happen. It is obvious that the shop did not know about this when they were putting the engine back together. When the oil pump body goes into the oil pan there is nothing that can be seen from that point on. All I can say is - we just got lucky - real lucky. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock10 Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 I can't wait for scenes from the next episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937McBuick Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 I know I should probably let this rest but which end of the spring broke? The end engaging the drive stub or the oil pump end? Is anything chewed from "slipping" Did you ever find a suitable screen for the oil pump intake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted January 6, 2023 Author Share Posted January 6, 2023 Rock, there is NOT going to be another episode😂! This one was way more than enough! 37McBuick, the top end of the spring (driven by the camshaft) was where the problem was at. The spring simply did not get engaged far enough into the drive slot to make a really secure connection. Opening the inside diameter of the spring up slightly will ensure that everything gets seated where it is supposed to be. There was no damage to either the drive end or the driven end of the oil pump shafts. Really got lucky with how things happened. Mr. Minnie down in Florida is taking care of the strainer screen on the pump for me. This whole thing has me just shaking my head because the guys at Abrahams Machine in Davenport did an absolutely wonderful job with rebuilding the engine. Once we got the timing and carburetor issues sorted out the engine just runs perfect. I will post photos of all the parts and pieces before it all goes back together. Just about forgot this point - the wire in the spring did not break. It simply unwound itself from what was in the shaft slot. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock10 Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 23 minutes ago, Terry Wiegand said: Rock, there is NOT going to be another episode😂! Darn. I signed up for season 2. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron1930 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 Terry; Does the spring disengaging explain how it got bent out of shape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted January 9, 2023 Author Share Posted January 9, 2023 Andy, The cross end of the spring evidentially did not get down into the slot far enough to fully engage. This is the only reasonable explanation that can be offered. The inside diameter of the new spring(s) is going to be opened up to .765" to make sure that it will go over the drive end of the upper shaft. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 Is there any way you can just use the old spring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted January 10, 2023 Author Share Posted January 10, 2023 NOPE! Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted January 11, 2023 Author Share Posted January 11, 2023 A long time friend called me yesterday and suggested that I should enroll the Buick with CarShield. I told him that I did not think that that would be an option. He shot back and said that the car has been completely rebuilt and that I really should look into this. Some folks have waaaay too much time on their hands🤣. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock10 Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted March 2, 2023 Author Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) There is some very good news to report at this time. The new oil pump drive springs came today. We're really happy that things are starting to move in the right direction. Ed sent me a note the other day and told me that when he gets back from Amelia that he will get right on the oil pump for us. That was great news to hear also. When the folks made the new springs we discussed opening the inside diameter up a bit and we agreed that widening the hook on each end would allow for not quite as sharp a bend at the very end. The photos really do not show this as well as I would have liked, but, it is what it is in that regard. When the pump gets back home I am going to cut a new gasket for it and hopefully I can get the crankcase filled with fresh oil. It shouldn't be long after that that the starter pedal can be stomped on. Updates as things happen. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Edited March 2, 2023 by Terry Wiegand (see edit history) 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937McBuick Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 Thanks for reporting back to us. Best of luck. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted March 3, 2023 Author Share Posted March 3, 2023 If a person looks really close at the photo with the pump drive shaft slipped into the spring, they will notice that the drive end does not completely fill the inside diameter of the spring. The outside diameter of the driven end measures 11/16" or .687" . The drive end of the shaft that runs off the camshaft looks like it should be 3/4" or .750" by scaling the full size sectional drawing at that point. Sorry about this poor photo to illustrate what is being measured. We had the new springs inside diameter opened up to .765" to make sure the end of the shaft would fit into the spring. The thing that really has me trying to figure out is why Mr. Marr would have engineered this pump drive mechanism with two different outside diameters like this? If anyone can shed light on the why this was done like this - there are a bunch of us who would like to know the reason why. It is supposed to be in the lower 70's on Sunday and I am going under on the creeper to check the spring fitment to the shaft out. More information about that later. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted March 5, 2023 Author Share Posted March 5, 2023 EUREKA!! The new spring slips over the top stub like it is supposed to. The first thing that I did was to try the good end of the one that went haywire. The cross bend went just a little bit into the slot, but not far enough to fully engage. I then tried the new spring with the slightly enlarged inside diameter and the cross tang went clear to the bottom of the slot. I believe that I can safely say that the problem has been discovered with the original spring and that the new replacement is going to work just fine. Setting the pump back into place could be a tricky situation, but I have had the time to figure out just how it can be done rather easily. I talked with one of my early Buick friends the other day and we discussed this oil pump drive system at great length. We came to the thinking that the reason for the two different outside diameters of the drive and driven stubs was to allow for some mismatch with the two shafts centerline axis'. This is just about the only reason that really makes any sense. At any rate, I think things are headed in the right direction this time. The next big thing is stepping on the starter pedal and watching the oil running through the sight gauge. Will keep everyone posted about the progress. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted March 25, 2023 Author Share Posted March 25, 2023 I spoke with Ed Minnie late yesterday afternoon (Friday) and he told me that the oil pump will be on its way back home more than likely on Monday. We had quite a visit about what went into the repair. We are going to talk again once I have the pump in hand. I will post photos so that everyone can see just what was done. I cannot say all that much right now without physically having the pump body in my hands. What I can talk a little bit about is the oil pump drive spring application(s). I have been asked if this particular spring will fit other years of Buick 6-Cylinder engines. I consulted my Buick Illustrated Parts Catalogs for 1916 through 1923. Good question. I wasn't sure what I would find, but, it turned out interesting to say the least. As we all know, the 1916 and 1917 models were ALMOST identical mechanically. Here is what I found - OIL PUMP SPRING - 33577 OIL PUMP DRIVING SHAFT - 33575 OIL PUMP GEAR SHAFT - 33875 For the 1918 models OIL PUMP SPRING - 35090 OIL PUMP DRIVING SHAFT - 33575 OIL PUMP GEAR SHAFT - 33875 For the 1919 and 1920 models OIL PUMP SPRING - 38200 OIL PUMP DRIVING SHAFT- 33575 OIL PUMP GEAR SHAFT - 41491 For the 1921 models OIL PUMP SPRING - 38200 OIL PUMP DRIVING SHAFT - 33575 OIL PUMP GEAR SHAFT - 41491 For the 1922 models OIL PUMP SPRING - 38200 OIL PUMP DRIVING SHAFT - 33575 OIL PUMP GEAR SHAFT - 151837 For the 1923 models OIL PUMP SPRING - 38200 OIL PUMP DRIVING SHAFT - 33575 OIL PUMP GEAR SHAFT - 151837 It is a pretty safe thing to say that the 1916 thru 1918 6-Cylinder oil pump system used some of the same individual parts. I have found that through the years Buick changed the part number for the same identical part used on different designated year models. There is a good possibility that the spring used on the 1918 models was the same as was used on the 1916 and 1917 models. MAYBE NOT. Our 1916 is a really early in the production year car. It was built in October of 1915 and has a cast Aluminum oil pan. Later in the production of these models a stamped steel oil pan was used and this figured into the placement of the oil pump. The parts catalogs refer to the depth of the oil troughs from the crankcase, so, with that said, it stands to reason that the placement of the oil pump body was going to be moved. I am thinking that the cast Aluminum and stamped steel oil pans used on the 1916 models used the same oil pump components except for the spring because the parts catalog calls out a different number for the spring used on the stamped steel oil pan and that number is 35090. Same spring except for a different length. Anyone who has a 1916, 1917, or 1918 6-Cylinder engine and should find themselves in need of one of these Oil Pump Drive Springs - please do not hesitate to get in contact with me. I can put you in touch with the folks who can help you out. This information can be confusing when you first read it, but, go back and reread and you will see where things fall into place. I hope that this will help anyone who might be in need. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted March 27, 2023 Author Share Posted March 27, 2023 I think that I should clarify better about the early models drive spring. The early 1916 models with the cast Aluminum oil pan used the 33577 drive spring. The driving shaft and the pump gear shaft was the same for the early 1916, later 1916, 1917, and 1918 models. The 35090 oil pump drive spring started with the later 1916 models and was used on the 1917 and 1918 models because these engines had a stamped steel oil pan. That caused the difference in spring length. The two different numbered springs were the same except for the overall length. Anyone needing a drive spring through the 1918 model year can be helped. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted March 30, 2023 Author Share Posted March 30, 2023 There is more good news to report. Ed sent the pump back to me and it got here this afternoon. He did a really nice job with the screen. He had mentioned to me earlier that he was going to put it in the oven at 300 degrees to thoroughly clean the casting up. It is really clean compared to the way it was when he got it. The next thing is getting the gasket cut and getting the oil pan opening cleaned and ready for the gasket sealer. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nat Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 Nice tidy job on the screen. It might let an ignition wrench through but no need to worry about the bigger ones. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted April 1, 2023 Author Share Posted April 1, 2023 (edited) Ed and I talked quite a bit about this pump screen. Since the engine was gone completely through and is as clean as a whistle inside, the screen really doesn't have anything to do except just be there. Under the circumstances the screen could have been left off. However, Mr. Marr designed the engine with it on there and it left the factory with it on there, so it just makes complete sense to keep it there. I am a huge fan of originality, so, it has to be there. I get it though - the openings are just a bit on the 'not very small' side😁. It'll keep the oil churned up really well going into the pump. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Edited April 1, 2023 by Terry Wiegand GRAMMAR (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted April 1, 2023 Share Posted April 1, 2023 (edited) The choice for screen size was dictated by using a welded screen instead of a woven screen. The holes are smaller than they look. I tried other materials and they wouldn’t hold up over time. That’s why they epoxied the last one. The choice was what is on it, or nothing. I think either choice was acceptable. Any strand off a woven screen could come loose, and get sucked into the pump. So that was an unacceptable issue. What is on it is the smallest welded screen available that I could find. Edited April 1, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history) 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted April 1, 2023 Author Share Posted April 1, 2023 Ed, Thanks for explaining things better than I could. As you explained, this material will be there for as long as we have the car and then some. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nat Posted April 1, 2023 Share Posted April 1, 2023 It's a nice job and should out live an engine or two or more. Perforated sheet metal is well suited to that task. https://www.mcmaster.com/products/perforated-sheets/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted April 1, 2023 Share Posted April 1, 2023 The problem with the sheet metal is the percentage of open area vs hole size. Welded wire gave the best option overall for flow and attachment. I actually tried several different options before I went with what is on the pump. In the end…..with a new engine, nothing was also a reasonable option. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted April 1, 2023 Author Share Posted April 1, 2023 I got the gasket cut this afternoon and I am just about ready to have my son-in-law help put everything back together. This is going to take 4 hands to get the thing back into the pan and I have a way figured out just how we are going to do things rather easily and quick. I am ready to hear this engine run after setting all Winter. The important thing here is to be sure and pack the pump with assembly grease before the bottom plate goes on. We do not want a dry start here. Wil keep everyone up to date. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted April 6, 2023 Author Share Posted April 6, 2023 My son-in-law is going to help with re-installing the pump this afternoon. My shop building lies in a North/South direction with overhead doors in each end. The last few days have seen high winds in the 40 - 50 mph range and we are just not going to open the building up under those conditions. This is something that is fairly normal out in Doo Dah in early Spring - a person just has to live with it. We want to roll the car out on the drive and get it on the jack so that things can be done much easier. It will not take long to do this. It's just getting things ready and in position. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted April 6, 2023 Author Share Posted April 6, 2023 There is good news to report at this time - the oil pump body has been installed back into the pan and the spring is going to function perfectly as it was designed to do. I will take a photo before the gears and bottom plate are put back into place. It took us maybe 5 minutes to do what we did and get out from under the car. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted April 7, 2023 Author Share Posted April 7, 2023 As promised here are a couple of photos of the oil pump body installed into the oil pan. I am here to tell that being on a creeper, holding a camera, and trying to keep from falling off the creeper is not high on my list of things that I am just jumping up and down to do. I think I got a couple of pretty decent photos under all of the circumstances. Tomorrow is the day that everything gets buttoned up and the oil is poured into the pan. I used Permatex Sealer on both sides of the gasket and I will get things cleaned up tomorrow with Denatured Alcohol. I am going to use a small bead of silicone on the bottom of the pump housing to seal the plate to the pump. I am happier than three jaybirds in a mulberry patch over how the drive spring fits into everything. We got the spring application into the drive and driven shaft ends just darn near perfect. I simply just do not know how this got overlooked and past the assembly stage. I will never know, but it did and it has been fixed correctly. I cannot say thank you enough to Ed for his part in the fix. He did a wonderful job with the screen. We are shooting for Sunday afternoon to hear the engine run again. We might do a video if we can. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nat Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 Truly exciting! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted April 8, 2023 Author Share Posted April 8, 2023 I am going to try this with the video that my daughter shot for me. I put a little fuel into the vacuum tank and the engine fired on the second try after setting since last December. When you watch this short video please keep in mind that the engine is still cold and hasn't had the chance to warm up yet. The extremely important thing here is that the oil pump is circulating the oil like it is supposed to. I believe that the problem has been taken care of and the car should be ready for hundreds and hundreds of trouble free miles going forward. I am just so thankful that this was caught without any damage to the engine. https://youtu.be/OqBhMy73Fe8 I think that the video can be seen by clicking on the link. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted April 8, 2023 Share Posted April 8, 2023 (edited) Terry, I have a complaint. That sealer shouldn’t be there. It’s very likely to cause a problem. Give me a call. Ed. Edited April 8, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted April 9, 2023 Author Share Posted April 9, 2023 Ed and I talked about the sealer that I used and HOW I applied it. It is Permatex Super "300" Sealant Liquid. It is safe to use where synthetic oils, lubricants, and automatic transmission fluids would be in contact with it. This stuff never hardens and the way I applied it it will have very minimal oozing, if any, into the gears pocket area. We think that everything is going to be OK with the way that I did things. This just goes to show that there is always something to learn when working with 100+ year old automobiles. I am very thankful that we have persons like Ed on here to impart critical knowledge about these old machines. The thing now is to try and drive the wheels off it. Thanks Ed. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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