Judging dilemma

[46 woodie]

Two cars are tied in points for best of show and after a discussion between the judges they picked a winner. One car had a modern license plate on the rear only and the winning car had year of manufacture plates both front and rear. The judges felt that owner of the car with the year of manufacture plates, "went the extra mile" and "completed the restoration package" and made the car look "era appropriate". I can understand the reasoning of the judges, but not sure if it's proper.

[Matt Harwood]

When there's a tie to be broken and it's best of show, then the hairs being split are necessarily fine. What other criteria should they have used if the cars were otherwise equally excellent?

[MCHinson]

Sounds a bit farfetched to me. The scenario that you have proposed won't happen in an AACA National Show as that is not how the judging system works. I have no idea what type of show you are talking about but whatever organization is putting on a show typically gets to run their show how they desire. In a couple of decades of judging various types of shows, I have never seen two cars that I could not examine and pick which one of them was a better restoration.  

[John348]

16 minutes ago, 46 woodie said:

Two cars are tied in points for best of show and after a discussion between the judges they picked a winner. One car had a modern license plate on the rear only and the winning car had year of manufacture plates both front and rear. The judges felt that owner of the car with the year of manufacture plates, "went the extra mile" and "completed the restoration package" and made the car look "era appropriate". I can understand the reasoning of the judges, but not sure if it's proper.

Was this an actual situation or a hypothetical one?  I had seen similar situation where it came down to the actual condition of the plates and YOM plates hurt the car because they can not be restored.

[Guest]

 I was once judging a local show and two cars appeared to both be perfect. The deciding factor was ... one of them had rust on the coil bracket, the other one did not.

 Decision made. 

 

( I actually voted for the car without the rust, even though the other cars owner  was my friend)  😇

[Pfeil]

28 minutes ago, John348 said:

Was this an actual situation or a hypothetical one?  I had seen similar situation where it came down to the actual condition of the plates and YOM plates hurt the car because they can not be restored.

Can you show a car without plates without deduction?

[Cadillac Fan]

Is this point judging or concours judging?

 

 

Or is this a Father’s Day type event?

[real61ss]

42 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

Can you show a car without plates without deduction?

Sure, in fact you are better off to show your car without plates, if they are on the car they will be judged. If they aren't there no points can be deducted. 

[TAKerry]

Original post sounds good to me. If its that close then something needs to break the tie. I was told of a similar situation between 2 corvettes. Perfect and tied in all categories, one of them had a cigar lighter that had been used the others was fresh. The one with the clean lighter won. I heard this from a reputable source. May have been 'legend or just a tale' but I believed it.

[straight8pontiac]

With reference to the original post, I had to open my gas tank filler door where the filler neck, gas cap, and surrounding body metal was judged. All in a days fun!

[TAKerry]

I will add, I wish having my car judged came down to the license plate, LOL. 

[SC38dls]

To me personally I think it’s way more fun to drive the car than nitpick about a license plate  date!   But that’s just me. 
dave s 

Edited July 19, 2022 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[CChinn]

To me this highlights the divergence in our hobby between cars for show and cars that are driven. No right or wrong here. Both viewpoints belong in our hobby.  The show cars preserve/demonstrate the best examples and the cars that are driven keep them out there for more of the public to see and enjoy on a regular basis.  For me personally, I like to drive my car and would be dismayed to have points deducted because I like to drive it

[Mikefit]

I've seen where closest to the correct tire pressure won 

[Terry Bond]

Not sure I understand it's a dilemma. If you go to shows like that and have your car judged you should know its gonna be "anything can happen day.:"

 

Terry

[John348]

2 hours ago, SC38dls said:

To me personally I think it’s way more fun to drive the car than nitpick about a license plate  date!   But that’s just me. 
dave s 

Dave, 

Well said, always keeping in mind everyone's idea of having fun is different. Myself I would make those YOM plates like the day DMV handed them out, but that's me.

 

2 hours ago, CChinn said:

To me this highlights the divergence in our hobby between cars for show and cars that are driven. No right or wrong here. Both viewpoints belong in our hobby.  The show cars preserve/demonstrate the best examples and the cars that are driven keep them out there for more of the public to see and enjoy on a regular basis.  For me personally, I like to drive my car and would be dismayed to have points deducted because I like to drive it

I have heard the statement that driving cars get the cars in the view of the public, ironically most of the time the "public" sees any of the cars up close is at a show or a cruise night

Points are never deducted because you like to drive your car, they are only lost because of condition, authenticity, cleanliness, or something is missing. While I admit it is hard to play both games, but it has been done. 

 

I think the judges in the example given found creative way to split a tie. 

[CChinn]

8 minutes ago, John348 said:

Dave, 

Well said, always keeping in mind everyone's idea of having fun is different. Myself I would make those YOM plates like the day DMV handed them out, but that's me.

 

I have heard the statement that driving cars get the cars in the view of the public, ironically most of the time the "public" sees any of the cars up close is at a show or a cruise night

Points are never deducted because you like to drive your car, they are only lost because of condition, authenticity, cleanliness, or something is missing. While I admit it is hard to play both games, but it has been done. 

 

I think the judges in the example given found creative way to split a tie. 

John, maybe I’m unique, but I doubt it, when I drive my car around the public gets to see it up close. Whenever it is parked at the store, gas station, gym, restaurant, coffee shop, golf course, etc there are always people looking at it up close or taking pictures. If I am there when they are looking at it, I am always happy to talk to them, answer their questions, show them the interior or engine. It happens all the time. WRT judging, I should have said “points deducted because it’s driven”.  It won’t be in pristine condition with dirt, grease, dust outside or inside the car, engine bay, tires or other areas and certainly tire pressure won’t be at manufacturer setting or cigar lighter not used to quote examples cited in this thread. I agree that it can be done, but not me. I’m not OC. That can be a positive trait for many endeavors like judged car shows 

[SC38dls]

If a car is done so well it can be in a show that’s great. I enjoy seeing those cars very much. I just don’t understand the nitpicking of the point system. But that’s ok because I still get to enjoy them while the owner has to figure out how to get that last point or two. If that’s what he/she enjoys great, it’s part of the hobby 

I’m not a judge or any type of expert on old cars I just enjoy them. Except for the seats in my 38 my car was original but it would never qualify for a survivor class in a show because I drive it. All the survivors I’ve seen in shows are pristinely clean. Yet the odometer has thousands of miles on them. Does the judge take points off because I’m driving on dirt roads and pristine cars like that drive on red carpets? It makes no sense that a survivor after 20 years wouldn’t have a few dings and scratches. 
As originally asked how does a judge decide and not use personal preferences? 
dave s 

ps- That’s why I drive instead of show but just my choice. Shows are fun. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[Ed Nieves]

5 hours ago, Pfeil said:

Can you show a car without plates without deduction?

Yes, you can. Here is a photo of my 95 Corvette with the plate that came on the car from the factory. That's the most original presentation you can get. 

[1937hd45]

Sounds like the judges in the OP were clueless, pulled off the street "volunteers". 

 

Bob 

[TAKerry]

Kinda off track (whats new) but on the topic of the cars being seen, I took my grandson to Mcd's a couple of weeks ago in my trans am. I drive it as often as possible. I was followed through the line by a lady in a brand new Mustang. When I pulled past the pay window, she pulled up beside and started taking pics. A lap around the parking and she stopped and came up to me asking if she could take more pics. Mine gets seen more out of shows than in shows.

[Avanti Bill]

I have seen this in Marque judging a couple times, it can often be hard to find a flaw in these top cars.  We went to function tests when we had a tie and in the end on at least one it was a flip of the coin.  You don't win every time be grown up about it and take it either way it goes with a smile.

[Barney Eaton]

I usually check for original air in the tires.    

Edited July 23, 2022 by Barney Eaton (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

I'm still wondering why this whole thing was posted in the AACA Class Judging forum when were obviously not talking about AACA Class Judging?  At least I've not seen any discussion yet that pertains.  Perhaps it should be moved to "general discussion?"

Terry

[ted sweet]

exactly