What is an "Assembled Car"

[AHa]

I would like to ask what car is not an assembled car? The term, assembled car, is routinely used as a derogatory term for some cars but you guys do realize the first of the great Mercer T head racers were assembled cars? Mercer made very few of the parts. Motors, radiators, transmissions, front and rear axles, hubs and wheels, all came from out side sources. All Mercer did was "assemble" them into one of the greatest cars ever made. So, again, what car company made the complete car in house?

[JV Puleo]

I have often wondered the same thing. After all, the mechanical parts of the early Ford's were all built by the Dodge Brothers. There are many more examples. In fact, it simply doesn't make good sense, from a business point of view, for a car company to make all the parts when they could be purchased from a specialist maker for much less than the cost of tooling up to make them. Things like helical gears, roller bearings, wheels & springs were all available from specialists and I suspect everyone did it. The term probably comes from advertising, with one maker trying to run down his competition. I am certain Mitchell bought outside parts but they never admitted it in their advertising which claimed them "made everything". It's a shame that collectors have inherited the hype along with their enthusiasm for the product.

[Graham Man]

Redacted....

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Graham Man
Wrong posting (see edit history)

[Graham Man]

On the "Built Cars"  Hella, Bosch, Delco, Borg-Warner, Cummings, Allison, TRW... cars today most likely have more parts built for them than the cars of the 1930.  I have always heard if they did not build their own engine it was a "Built Car"... very few manufactures cast there own blocks.

[George K]

5 hours ago, Graham Man said:

Ok since we are veering off topic just a little...stickling with cars that should be remembered; American Locomotive Co.

 

1909 ALCO, Alco T-head straight-six displacing 680.6 cubic inches "the Black Beast" Vanderbilt race car

 

ALCO: The Bugatti Veyron of its era

 

1908 ALCO,  453 cubic-inches for the 4-cylinder in 1911, 579 cubic-inch 6-cylinder (Around $7K new, just over $200K today)

 

 

 

 

The so called Black Beast sure fits the description of an assemble car. Joel Finn was the assembler. Enough said.

[oldcarfudd]

These days we ride in assembled airplanes.  Boeing and Airbus and Cessna make airframes.  Engines, electronics and probably a bunch of other useful bits come from other companies.

[8E45E]

We could start an entire new thread on 'Assembled Cars', if there isn't a previous post on the subject.

 

Craig

[JV Puleo]

The 1908 ALCO was restored by Manny Souza, one of the nicest people I've met in the old car hobby. At one time it has belonged to George Waterman. If I remember correctly, Manny got it from the person Waterman sold it to. It was built at the ALCO plant in Providence, RI, quite literally across the street from my father's printing company. Manny also had a 1912 ALCO tourer...

 

The ALCO was a license built Berliet and I suspect American Locomotive really did make most of it which wouldn't have been the challenge it was for most car companies since they were in the business of building steam locomotives. Manny's 1908 actually has gauges marked "American Berliet".

[8E45E]

An Alco 'big rig'

 

Craig

[AHa]

2 hours ago, 8E45E said:

We could start an entire new thread on 'Assembled Cars', if there isn't a previous post on the subject.

 

I suspect all cars would fit into a thread titled Assembled Cars, after all, were they not all "assembled?" The word literally has no meaning and should not, in my humble opinion, indicate the quality of any given make. Most, if not all, cars are assembled from component parts and most companies had outside help. The Mercer is a great example. The early cars were almost completely assembled from parts from outside sources yet that does not in any way reflect in a poorly designed and built car.

Edited January 18, 2022 by AHa (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Many cars were built 100 percent in house. As time went on, technology and economies of scale made many companies use outside sources.......better product is the reason. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

22 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

An Alco 'big rig'

 

Craig

That is what the so called Black Beast engine is out of. It’s a truck engine not a car. Assembled for sure.

[Graham Man]

From an engineering aspect... "Many cars were built 100 percent in house." 

 

How about bearings, carburetors, transmissions, clutches, tires, castings, lights, switches, wheels, gauges, springs

 

The only company who ever came close to 100% would be Ford, Model T at 15,000,000 built, you can get "economy of scale"... and he bought tires from Firestone, and bulbs from Edison. 

In 1920 Ford had 80,000 employees.

 

I would say there probably has never been a production car 100% built in house

 

 

[edinmass]

Phil and I went over everything on the 1917 White to figure out exactly what was not made in house. At the time we were amazed how much of it was all in house and unique to their applications.

Engine - White

Frame - White

Carburetor - White

Transmission - White

Steering box - White

Clutch - White

Driveshaft - White

Brakes, drums, bands, linkage, ect - White.

Exhaust and cut out -White

Radiator - White

Front and Rear axel - White, Including all the differential gears.

Spindles, drag links, hubs, wheels, shackles, ect - White

Switches, solenoids, hardware, -White

ALM/USS bolts, nuts, screws -White

Lights - White

 

Ok, so almost the entire car.......what was not?

Firestone rims

Starter and Generator - Lesse- Neville 12 volt

Some bearings.....not all

Gauges are National Guage

Moto meter

Tires and tubes

Yale locks

Light bulbs

Spark plugs

Bosch magneto 

Stewart Warner vacuum tank

Wiring.......just a guess.

Battery......just a guess.

Windshield glass......just a guess.

 

 

OVERALL- I would say that it’s a fair statement that it was “all built in house”.

 

Cars with factory bodies were built with Ash wood grown and managed by White.

Every single casting was made by White to the best of our knowledge.

 

Pierce Arrow would have been very similar to the White.

 

Rear wheel bearings were made by Timken, but actually marked “White car” along with the numbers.......so they were exclusive to White.

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[8E45E]

47 minutes ago, Graham Man said:

The only company who ever came close to 100% would be Ford, Model T at 15,000,000 built, you can get "economy of scale"... and he bought tires from Firestone, and bulbs from Edison. 

In 1920 Ford had 80,000 employees.

Only true after 1914 when John & Horace set up their own car manufacturing business.  Dodge Brothers made bodies and other components for Henry and others prior to that.

 

Craig

[edinmass]

In 1915 there were something like 8 different suppliers of touring car bodies to Ford.........

[JV Puleo]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Phil and I went over everything on the 1917 White to figure out exactly what was not made in house. At the time we were amazed how much of it was all in house and unique to their applications.

I'm sure that is the case but, at the same time I'd posit that it was much more likely with an expensive car, especially one made by a company that already had an advanced industrial plant at its disposal. The same could be said for Pierce Arrow and I bet its the case with the Porter we've discussed — made by a munitions company that needed a post-WWI product. I'd include ALCO — making big cars was nothing compared to their locomotives. Locomobile was much the same until it became obvious that their designs were obsolete and the cost of retooling for a new engine prohibitive. The situation was different for all the medium and lower priced cars and for the majority of pre-1920 companies that were usually under capitalized. I remember reading a quote from Finley Porter regarding the Mercer Raceabout transmissions...that "we just ordered them from the Brown & Lippe Gear Company and that's what they sent us." The Dodge Brothers probably made everything but they were a machine shop and already had been making Fords for years. Mitchell-Lewis SAID they made everything but I know they didn't make the springs because they are marked by the maker in a place no one would ever see unless they took them apart.

 

I would discount things like magnetos, spark plugs and gauges...those were always made by specialist companies no matter what car they were in.

Edited January 18, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

During the "brass era" model Ts, Ford Motor Company made very little "in house". The flywheel magneto was one of the few in house components. Henry did form another company about 1907 (?) called the Ford Manufacturing Company to compete against the Dodge Brothers, in Part to leverage better prices, and in part to reduce their dependence on a single major supplier. Parts manufactured by Ford Manufacturing "technically" were not made "inhouse". Henry also leveraged Ford Manufacturing to add to his ownership and control of Ford Motor Company, eventually absorbing Ford Manufacturing into Ford Motor Company.

Nearly all bodies were outside suppliers until 1917, and even most through 1918. Most enclosed bodies were outside supplier through 1925, only going mostly inhouse the final two years. If I recall correctly, the 1924 coupe I used to have was a Fisher body. Even in the model A years, a few body styles were outside supplier. Briggs and Murray both built many tens of thousands of bodies during the model A years.

Many heavy forgings were outside, including front axles. Transue Williams that began taking over for the Dodge Brothers in 1912 continued supplying many of Ford's front axles until the end of the model T. 

Ford managed their production to maximize plant production, relying on outside suppliers eagerly waiting to fill shortfalls. At least three outside companies manufactured frames into the final years. I have seen as few PB frames, but I do not offhand know who PB was. 

Most wheels were outsourced before 1926. 

 

Legends are what legends are. But the model T Ford was never anywhere near a hundred percent "inhouse".

[8E45E]

7 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I would discount things like magnetos, spark plugs and gauges...those were always made by specialist companies no matter what car they were in.

With the exception of the fact GM and Ford owned those companies that made those products, AC-Delco and Motorcraft.

 

Craig

[Terry Harper]

I always considered "assembled" to be a derogatory marketing term not really centered in reality. i.e. "It applies to thee but not to me". Very,very few manufactures could be considered 100% in house. Then there is Moon (If my memory is correct) who ran an ad campaign explaining the benefits of being an "assembled" car using "the best" components provided by "specialists".  

 

In regards to ALCO Here is a tidbit from the "The Automobile Journal", August 25, 1913

Edited January 18, 2022 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[8E45E]

24 minutes ago, Terry Harper said:

I always considered "assembled" to be a derogatory marketing term not really centered in reality. i.e. "It applies to thee but not to me". Very,very few manufactures could be considered 100% in house. Then there is Moon (If my memory is correct) who ran an ad campaign explaining the benefits of being an "assembled" car using "the best" components provided by "specialists". 

An 'assembled' car usually applies to vehicles where the majority of the components are 'off the shelf' parts without any modifications made to them to make it exclusive to that particular make; especially mechanical parts.  I recall something like ten different car manufacturers all used the same Continental 4-cylinder engine within a ten year period.   

 

Of course many of the higher-end car manufacturers did 'shop around' for the very best components, including Rolls-Royce.   And R-R sometimes went one step further and assembled parts in-house with tighter specs than the manufacturer they purchased the rights from did themselves.  

 

Craig

[1937hd45]

On 1/17/2022 at 11:07 AM, AHa said:

I would like to ask what car is not an assembled car? The term, assembled car, is routinely used as a derogatory term for some cars but you guys do realize the first of the great Mercer T head racers were assembled cars? Mercer made very few of the parts. Motors, radiators, transmissions, front and rear axles, hubs and wheels, all came from out side sources. All Mercer did was "assemble" them into one of the greatest cars ever made. So, again, what car company made the complete car in house?

Slow day? 

[JV Puleo]

15 hours ago, Terry Harper said:

In regards to ALCO Here is a tidbit from the "The Automobile Journal", August 25, 1913

I've been told that one of the main reasons it wasn't all that profitable was that the top management was in the habit of giving the cars away if you placed a big enough order for locomotives. By a dozen big ALCO engines and the car was a "sweetener." Since it was about the most expensive car in America one can only guess what sort of money was involved to justify that!

[1912Staver]

19 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

During the "brass era" model Ts, Ford Motor Company made very little "in house". The flywheel magneto was one of the few in house components. Henry did form another company about 1907 (?) called the Ford Manufacturing Company to compete against the Dodge Brothers, in Part to leverage better prices, and in part to reduce their dependence on a single major supplier. Parts manufactured by Ford Manufacturing "technically" were not made "inhouse". Henry also leveraged Ford Manufacturing to add to his ownership and control of Ford Motor Company, eventually absorbing Ford Manufacturing into Ford Motor Company.

Nearly all bodies were outside suppliers until 1917, and even most through 1918. Most enclosed bodies were outside supplier through 1925, only going mostly inhouse the final two years. If I recall correctly, the 1924 coupe I used to have was a Fisher body. Even in the model A years, a few body styles were outside supplier. Briggs and Murray both built many tens of thousands of bodies during the model A years.

Many heavy forgings were outside, including front axles. Transue Williams that began taking over for the Dodge Brothers in 1912 continued supplying many of Ford's front axles until the end of the model T. 

Ford managed their production to maximize plant production, relying on outside suppliers eagerly waiting to fill shortfalls. At least three outside companies manufactured frames into the final years. I have seen as few PB frames, but I do not offhand know who PB was. 

Most wheels were outsourced before 1926. 

 

Legends are what legends are. But the model T Ford was never anywhere near a hundred percent "inhouse".

 

I believe PB frames would have been Parish Brothers. They were the other big maker of frames besides A.O. Smith.

[edinmass]

15 hours ago, carbking said:

Ed - I would pose a question, not meant as a contradiction:

 

You mentioned the White carburetor as being manufactured by White.

 

I am aware of a number of different carburetors which had the car manufacturer's name, and not the carburetor company's name on the carburetor; in other words, carburetors made specifically for a car manufacturer.

 

The one that most would be familiar with would be the Packard Air Valve carburetor used by Packard from the mid teens to early 1929. Virtually all of these have the wording "Packard Motor Car Co", and no trace of Detroit Lubricator. For years, one of the early Packard enthusiasts and I had a friendly "argument" about these, until I finally found one with the Detroit Lubricator name on the bowl cover. Later, another enthusiast found the original print.

 

Much more common were carburetors such as the ones built for Cole and Studebaker by Stromberg respectively, that had both names on the bowl covers.

 

Before you posted pictures, I had not seen another carburetor with the exact internals of the White, and still haven't. Just bringing up some "food for thought".

 

I do not have the capability, but would be interesting to see if White recorded any patents on the carburetor design.

 

Jon.

 

Jon, somewhere in all my paperwork, it lists the carburetor as “their own design”. 

[wayne sheldon]

22 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

 

I believe PB frames would have been Parish Brothers. They were the other big maker of frames besides A.O. Smith.

 

That sounds right. I know that I have read it in previous discussions on the MTFCA form. Too much stuff rattling around that dusty attic I call a memory.

 

In the "for what it is worth" department? Paige was considered an assembled car. However, many of their major components were ordered specified to Paige designs. My 6-45 engine may have been manufactured by Continental, however, the engine is unique to Paige.

[George K]

Stutz is a good example of a assembled car. His 1911 car was a confection of parts from the best suppliers. Marion chassis, Timken front axle, Gemmer steering gear box and wheel, Warner shifter and hand brake, radiator, Wisconsin engine, Dorian wheel rims, Splitdorf magneto, Schebler carburetor , Goodyear tires, leaf springs and Foster shocks. Stutz was a parts supplier with his transaxle. The transaxle and steering pitman arm are the only two parts Stutz had to do with. Of course it was his vision which wasn’t a bad idea. 

[Billy Kingsley]

It's funny how people are derogatory towards "assembled cars" because they weren't made in house, yet venerate coachbuilt cars which also weren't made in house. 

 

If where the parts were sourced from is the main concern then both are equally not in house. 

 

Just for the record, it doesn't matter to me in the least. 

[West Peterson]

I guess I never assumed that when one called a car "assembled" it was a derogatory term. It's a description to describe what the company was doing at the time, versus "quality" of the car.

[8E45E]

2 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

I guess I never assumed that when one called a car "assembled" it was a derogatory term. It's a description to describe what the company was doing at the time, versus "quality" of the car.

Keep in mind many of these important suppliers were also the inventors of certain devices, or processes, and held the patents on them.    The suppliers would then sell these inventions to various automakers who would use them to their advantage by advertising it as 'theirs'.  An example was Packard's use of Dana's limited slip rear differential which they marketed as Twin-Traction (along with Studebaker a year later).  Another was Perfect Circle who invented the 'Speedostat', or cruise control that Chrysler started to use in 1957.  And Bendix was well known for inventing lots of engine and braking devices, including an early electronic fuel injection the Chrysler, AMC, and Studebaker experimented with in some of their cars.

 

Craig

[Cadillac Fan]

I understood an “assembled car” to mean that the parts were designed by the supplier and not exclusive to the car manufacturer.  As opposed to the engineering department of the car manufacturer directing the supplier how/what to make, and the part being exclusive to the car manufacturer.  
 

 

it indirectly refers to who designed/ engineered the parts of the car. 

 

 

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 1/18/2022 at 7:57 AM, Terry Harper said:

I always considered "assembled" to be a derogatory marketing term not really centered in reality.

 

Here's a historical perspective from 100 years ago--

little known today, and not yet addressed in this thread:

 

Reading articles from the time, I've understood that

"assembled" cars--whose parts came from a wide

variety of suppliers far afield--weren't as respected

because getting replacement parts was difficult.

Evidently those car companies, who were smaller

concerns and not the big names, tended not to have

a ready supply of spare parts when they were needed.

 

When we preserve history, it's important to preserve

old magazines too!  People who actually lived history

wrote those articles, and we can see what they lived through.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Thanks, John

Interesting. So, basically, to assume that an assembled car is a derogatory term means that one is not entirely familiar with what and why the term was made up. Your "history lesson" sheds a great light on this, and it makes a lot of sense. What this says is that one could not always run down to their "Assembled Car" dealership and get the parts they wanted in a timely manner. Probably depended on which "Assembled Car" you bought, and its dealer network. Today, of course, it would probably mean the same thing in regard to maintenance/restoration. First you have to know who made the part, then cross reference as to what other vehicles may have used that same part so that you can start searching for said part.

[Restorer32]

Like West, I never thought of " assembled car" as being derogatory.  It applies to probably hundreds and hundreds of makes in the early years. Slightly OT but A O Smith, famed frame maker, still makes many products, including those large blue manure tanks you see on farms nationwide.

[John_S_in_Penna]

A few people here have surmised that the term

"assembled car" was merely a marketing term

meant to disparage the competition.  In viewing

many old car ads, and using them in our regional

newsletter, I have never seen the term used by

the car companies themselves.

 

It is likely that the term was created by the frustrated

owners themselves.  We recall that, in the early years,

car companies were going into and out of business.

If that was true of suppliers, imagine trying to get a

specific part for your Kline Kar, your Kurtz, or your

Kleiber, when the companies didn't stock them and

the supplier perhaps no longer existed.

[8E45E]

13 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

It is likely that the term was created by the frustrated

owners themselves.  We recall that, in the early years,

car companies were going into and out of business.

If that was true of suppliers, imagine trying to get a

specific part for your Kline Kar, your Kurtz, or your

Kleiber, when the companies didn't stock them and

the supplier perhaps no longer existed.

Some fail to realize more mainstream companies, used the same part(s), and could me more readily found.  

 

In the case of Studebaker, Chrysler used many electrical and other components that were shared between the two.  

 

Craig

[George K]

The cornerstone of any automobile is the engine. Assembled automobiles used engines designed and produced by other firms. Then there is a descending order of other main components. Proprietary design produced by any outside firms is the next criteria. Raw material to finished product is a huge undertaking. Always about available capital.

[AHa]

You guys are talking about two different things. My original post was in response to a derogatory remark made in the original thread about a car they did not like by someone I did not wish to call out. The historical prospective is certainly different than the modern one. I have been in this hobby longer than I care to mention and have always heard the term, assembled, used as a derogatory term about a car the speaker didn't like or respect. This may certainly be an extension of the historical perspective, or it could be in response to the experience with a worn out example of the car. Some hobbyist are second and third generation and have certainly heard fathers and grandfathers voice their displeasure or frustrations with certain makes.

[George K]

On 1/17/2022 at 10:07 AM, AHa said:

I would like to ask what car is not an assembled car? The term, assembled car, is routinely used as a derogatory term for some cars but you guys do realize the first of the great Mercer T head racers were assembled cars? Mercer made very few of the parts. Motors, radiators, transmissions, front and rear axles, hubs and wheels, all came from out side sources. All Mercer did was "assemble" them into one of the greatest cars ever made. So, again, what car company made the complete car in house?

Mercedes and Locomobile.

[Zimm63]

When I saw this topic, I thought it might refer to a car like my TR3.  Originally purchased as a parts car in about 1984.  Restored to a good driver, using parts from at least 5 or 6 other cars.  

 

Drives nice and is fun, but will never win any prizes.