Where do you get the front ends on your old cars aligned?

[JamesR]

I'm nearing completion of suspension work on my 4th gen Thunderbird. In your experience, do the places that do front end alignments on newer cars typically do satisfactory work on old vehicles? I've had some bad experiences with new car oriented shops doing other types of work on old cars. BTW, I live in eastern Nebraska, so if any locals know of any specific shops that do good alignment work feel free to either mention it in the comments or PM me. Thanks.

[Frank DuVal]

Just what year range is a Gen 4 Thunderbird?

 

A real alignment shop, one that does big trucks and cars, should handle anything in the 1955+ year range. 

 

If you want to stay with your "child", ask them if that bothers them in the initial phone call.

[JamesR]

Mine is a 1965 Landau (hardtop.) Thanks for the info, Frank.

[keiser31]

The local tire shop on the other side of the block I live on did my 1931 Dodge Brothers front end alignment.

[1912Staver]

That's a very basic front end. If it is in good mechanical condition I would think any alignment shop can handle it. If it needs work the front coils are very high rate. Somewhat dangerous if the shop is not in posession of the correct type of coil compressor or inexperenced on these front ends. But for a simple alignment there should be no problem.

[JamesR]

I've already replaced the front coil springs and rear leaf springs as part of the suspension work I mentioned. I also replaced both upper ball joints. Both upper control arms were removed during this work and I replaced the shaft and bushings on one of the control arms (wish I'd done both sides while I was at it.) Everything seems to have gone in fine and seems to work well now, but I'm pretty sure I need an alignment.

[1912Staver]

No doubt you will need an alignment. Yes it is a mistake not to replace the upper inners on both sides when you had it all apart. But I assume they checked out OK when it was apart so you should have years of trouble free use ahead of you. Those front ends should last for at least 80,000 miles. Which on a collectors car is decades in most cases. Any decent front end shop should be able to align a 1966 T Bird.

[Bhigdog]

I have a local shop that does all of mine. That said: I bring the shop manual and stay with the car. I've even gotten under the car to answer a question or when asked for an opinion. Not every shop is willing to allow that......Bob

[Laughing Coyote]

How about some pictures of this Thunderbird in question?   I'm going to have to do the same thing when it comes time.

[rocketraider]

Make sure to take shop book or other alignment specs source with you. Can about guarantee the shop won't have them and their alignment rack's computer database won't either.

[TTR]

3 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

I have a local shop that does all of mine. That said: I bring the shop manual and stay with the car. I've even gotten under the car to answer a question or when asked for an opinion. Not every shop is willing to allow that......Bob

Same here, except on any “completely” (incl. fully detailed/refinished undercarriage) restorations, I do all needed wrenching under the car while the alignment mechanic just tells me which adjustment or shimming I need to accomplish.
 

Edited November 23, 2021 by TTR (see edit history)

[TTR]

@JamesR & others:

If/when you get ready for alignment, make sure the car is at weight level indicated by the manufacturer for the given specification, i.e. whether it should be "loaded" or "unloaded", meaning whether it should have full tank of fuel or not, how many passengers onboard or none, spare tire, luggage, etc. ?

 

For example, some vintage sports cars I work on, OEM alignment/ride-height specs are based on them being "fully loaded", i.e. 2 passengers, full tank, spare, jack, tool kit, but no luggage. Most people (owners or their mechanics/restorers) don't take this into consideration and if not, the lack of any passengers (175-200 lbs each, gasoline at +/-6.3 lbs per gallon, spare tire, etc) can easily have 500+ lbs impact on "correct" ride-height and subsequent dynamic alignment, etc.

 

 

 

 

[Pfeil]

I do alignments myself

[edinmass]

Why not buy the equipment and align it yourself? I purchased a used set of slipper pads from my Snap On dealer, and a clamp on caster/camber/toe guage for less than 400 dollars all in. Then you have control of it getting done right. Trust me on this one:

 

First- most people,today can’t do an alignment unless the computer can tell them how to do it.

Second- It’s only good as the guy spinning wrenches, and most will short cut it as “good enough” and ship it.

Third- Half the guys after cheating the alignment and road testing it will over and under inflate tires to make it track straight.

Edited November 24, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[TTR]

12 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Why not buy the equipment and align it yourself? I purchased a used set of slipper pads from my Snap On dealer, and a clamp on caster/camber/toe guage for less than 400 dollars all in. Then you have control of it getting done right. Trust me on this one:

 

First- most people,today can’t do an alignment unless the computer can tell them how to do it.

Second- It’s only good as the guy spinning wrenches, and most will short cut it as “good enough” and ship it.

Third- Half the guys after cheating the alignment and road testing it will over and under inflate tires to make it track straight.

Well, with all due respect Ed, but what you're stating easily applies to ALL aspects of automotive repairs, restoration and/or services, regardless of make, model, vintage (modern or old) and whether done by amateurs or professionals. 

 

Also, probably applicable to just about all aspects of repairs/services one encounters a need for in everyday life, regardless of industry.

 

And you've seen and know the reasons for it too, right ?

[edinmass]

Craftsmanship - which doesn’t just mean skill.........but pride of workmanship , doing it right regardless of time and cost, are no longer part of 99 percent of any service you pay for today....from painting the spare bedroom, cutting a lawn, or fixing a screen door. Simple fact is most technicians under fifty are simply not capable of doing an alignment on anything that can’t be plugged into a computer. Almost every shop is flat rate today, as there is zero incentive to do it correctly. Your best bet is a speed shop/hot rod shop as they will probably have the capability of doing the alignment manually. Most will just set the toe.......what they call toe and go. Ride height, centered steering wheel, proper air pressure, shaking down the front end, dealing with rusty or stuck bolts........just a few things a 20 year kid won’t bother checking before he does the alignment. Sad but true, doing it yourself will probably be the only way you are certain it’s perfect.

 

 

On a modern car alignment, the machine will not give all green lights till it’s in range......and the under car technician CAN NOT cheat it.........but then again, you need to see the print out. And some the time the print out that you get isn’t even your car.....it’s just one that is all green lights from another car. A proper alignment on a 60’s car should run from 100 to 400 dollars depending on how much actual time it takes to do the job.....I would figure one hour minimum just to check it and get accurate readings if no adjustments are necessary, to four hours to make adjustments and recheck it. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

Our local tire shop will do it right. They did my P-15 Plymouth, and did a great job. Generalizations can be unnecessarily damaging. A bad shop will get a reputation as well as one that cares.

[nickelroadster]

I always get a little nervous when asking a modern shop to do any work on older cars.  If the shop techs don't show an interest and think your car is interesting do somewhere else.  Like Ed says look for pride in work.  Whenever they show an interest, that means that they will probably do a more careful job.

[edinmass]

I agree 100 percent Dave. The average age of a car in the US is 12 years old.  Most modern shops are strictly geared for fast in/fast out service. The average tire shop, under car shop, and franchised service shop doesn’t want a car on the alignment rack for more than a half hour......... 

 

 

Another strange fact......a car that pulls and can’t be brought into spec will often be pushed out of adjustment to compensate on the other side. Sometimes wire wear will be effected, sometimes not. While many people think alignments are straight forward, often times they are not.......for countless reasons. It’s part skill, and part art. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[trini]

Aligning wheels is a specialty. If you are planning to do it yourself it is necessary to understand the fundamentals of the job at hand. For example the different types and designs  of front ends  and rear ends. Before starting the job all rubber bushings ball joints must be in good shape. Shocks in good shape and tires pressure up to specs. Rear wheels mounted semi eliptical leaf springs can be out of line due to damage that  goes unnoticed. Bent rims, tie rods  and loose wheel  bearings. A good alignment person will check and  repair  before aligning. My mechanic friends used to repair the necessities before taking it to the alignment  shop to save some money that way. AN EDUCATED CONSUMER IS THE BEST CUSTOMER.

[Frank DuVal]

3 hours ago, TTR said:

For example, some vintage sports cars I work on, OEM alignment/ride-height specs are based on them being "fully loaded", i.e. 2 passengers, full tank, spare, jack, tool kit, but no luggage. Most people (owners or their mechanics/restorers) don't take this into consideration and if not, the lack of any passengers (175-200 lbs each, gasoline at +/-6.3 lbs per gallon, spare tire, etc) can easily have 500+ lbs impact on "correct" ride-height and subsequent dynamic alignment, etc.

Not just exotics. I had an old school truck/car shop do a 66 Mustang, and it drove great, better than other tire shops. I congratulated the tech and he said the secret was loading the driver's floor with 200 lbs!👍

[Bryan G]

Find a good, independent shop, owned by someone who cares about old cars. 

 

A friend of mine is a good mechanic with a somewhat basic alignment rack; he always did a great job for me on modern vehicles. When I had him do my Shoebox Ford it also turned out well but the equipment fit so tight at the back wheels that he chipped the paint on one quarter.

[trini]

Frank Duval, you are a whiz. I did not want to go that far . I did not want my article look boring. Without the sand bag the river side had to get a little less caster to compensate for the driver's weight.

Do you remember JOHN BEAM  alignment equipment ? Well they sponsored classes at most Tek schools in Canada. I am a graduate of Centenial Tek. Toronto. Canada

[trini]

Alignment on a road vehicle is a safety factor and there is no compromise. The lives of every user of the road depends on it.

[edinmass]

It’s not common to see weight placed in a car when aligning it. ( Back when I was doing them.) Some manufacturers call for it as standard. Others say the specifications they give are unloaded and are correct when you load them. On the modern machines you can see things change as you get in and out of the car while it’s on the rack. I don’t work very much on the modern super cars, with their crazy wheels and interactive suspension.........I’m told some of them can only be aligned in one or two places in the country. I think pre 1980 most cars alignment is basically straight forward. I have seen brand new cars built so crooked they burn a set of tires off them in 3000 miles. One was so bad it couldn’t even be brought close to specifications. Chrysler refused to fix the car. We actually had to cut it apart and weld it back together. Technically it was “frame damage” by the time we were done welding it back together. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Str8-8-Dave]

My brother piloted my use of Belle Tire when he took his then new 1962 Healey Sprite to the original store on Grand River and Myers in Detroit.  H swore by them after getting the car back, it never handled better, tires wore evenly and at 100 MPH flat out (6,000 rpm in 4th) hands off the wheel it tracked perfectly.  Many years later, I bought a 68 GTO on E-Bay from a guy in Bend Oregon which arrived in Harper Woods, MI running on 7 cylinders and leaking every fluid it owned.  I farmed the engine and trans out to Milt Schornack of Royal Pontiac fame who was a GTO Tigers club member.  He came and got the car one cold winter day, took it to his son's garage and pulled the engine and trans, then brought the roller back to me where it went on jack stands for about 9 months so I could make a car out of the rest of it.  I took the front end completely apart, had the upper and lower control arms powder coated, then put it all back together with new ball joints, shocks, springs, bushings, tie rod ends, drum brake parts, drums and wheel bearings.  As soon as Milt reinstalled the engine and trans I took the car to the Belle Tire store on Mack and Moross in Grosse Pointe for alignment.  To my total surprise they called me almost as soon as I got home and announced I had put left side parts on the right and right side parts on the left which was probably why Milt told me it needed an alignment!  Belle Tire swapped the parts around and lined the car up and balanced all the tires and it drove really nice...

 

But before the GTO when I worked at Williams Bros Sunoco we used to take customer's cars to Paul's Auto Safety Clinic in Garden City, MI for alignments.  Eventually Jim Williams arranged to have a 3rd bay added to our station and bought a Bear alignment machine.  One by one 3 of 4 Williams Bros spent a week at Paul's Auto Safety Clinic (Paul was a certified Bear instructor) and learned the craft of doing alignments.   

[JACK M]

I have one similar to this. (not digital)

Mine has a few adaptors that screw onto the spindle as well as a magnetic part that I can stick to a rotor.

Seems to work well.

I use pairs of aluminum sheets with grease between them under the tires so that I can steer.

It may be tractor grade but works for me.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Longacre-52-78290-Caster-Camber-Gauge/dp/B001NN9G5S/ref=asc_df_B001NN9G5S/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312177448019&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2176472173728376037&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032911&hvtargid=pla-574699876783&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=61495038909&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312177448019&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2176472173728376037&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032911&hvtargid=pla-574699876783

[JamesR]

14 hours ago, edinmass said:

It’s not common to see weight placed in a car when aligning it. ( Back when I was doing them.) Some manufacturers call for it as standard. Others say the specifications they give are unloaded and are correct when you load them. On the modern machines you can see things change as you get in and out of the car while it’s on the rack.

That helps, Ed. I have the interior all torn out for refurbishment, except for dash, steering column, console and package shelf. I have a makeshift seat set up  so I can drive it around the neighborhood to test things after I install them, but was going to temporarily reinstall the driver's bucket seat for the alignment shop. It now sounds like I should instead wait for the alignment until I get the the complete interior reinstalled. Then maybe add a couple of sandbags too for good measure. I'll reread the shop manual and see what it says.

[edinmass]

You definitely want to have all your chassis repairs done also. Shocks, springs, what ever rims and tires you intend to run. Get the car in is final configuration, then align it. If you just want to run it a little bit, set the toe in at 1/8-1/4 inch and it will be fine for some test drives.

[TTR]

2 hours ago, JamesR said:

That helps, Ed. I have the interior all torn out for refurbishment, except for dash, steering column, console and package shelf. I have a makeshift seat set up  so I can drive it around the neighborhood to test things after I install them, but was going to temporarily reinstall the driver's bucket seat for the alignment shop. It now sounds like I should instead wait for the alignment until I get the the complete interior reinstalled. Then maybe add a couple of sandbags too for good measure. I'll reread the shop manual and see what it says.

Yes, at minimum you should have the car fully assembled into it's final configuration or equal amount of ballast weight added per weight of each major component not yet installed. 

And as Ed said, also at minimum, make sure ALL suspension/steering related components are fully rebuilt/serviced or replaced with new, including (fresh) tires.

Otherwise, there's not really a point to align it.

 

Also, once aligned, you should go back to your alignment shop after few hundred miles and have them re-check it (Actually, if the shop doesn't recommend or insist on that, find another shop).

After that, just like your modern daily driver, have it checked and aligned every time you replace tires...

Edited November 25, 2021 by TTR (see edit history)

[trini]

Interesting conversation. We all learned something new or reviewed old lessons.