'41 Roadmaster convertible -- Not Mine -- $67,500

[neil morse]

If you've got this kind of money burning a hole in your pocket, this would be a worthy way to spend it!

 

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/buick/roadmaster/2056523.html?refer=saturday&utm_source=saturday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2021-11-13

 

[lancemb]

Man o man, that is a beauty!  Unfortunately my pocket has had a hole in it for awhile that doesn't allow it to fill up very much.  Otherwise this would be very tempting indeed!

[kingrudy]

Far outside of my budget, but sure is a beautiful car. 

[AdamInNH]

I was interested in this car until I had an appraiser scope it out for me and send me about 150 detailed photos. He called me as he was leaving the fantasyland-seller’s location. First thing he said to me is “This is a car you don’t want.”  Up close it is a #3- car, at best. Runs and drives nice, but everything else is +meh+. At $40K, it’d be priced high considering what it needs to get it to where it’d be worth the $67.5K that the seller is dreaming about. 

[Jolly_John]

Thanks for posting this helpful info, Adam. It's really good of you to share the information you paid to get, with others here on the forum. John

[deac]

On 12/17/2021 at 11:03 PM, AdamInNH said:

I was interested in this car until I had an appraiser scope it out for me and send me about 150 detailed photos. He called me as he was leaving the fantasyland-seller’s location. First thing he said to me is “This is a car you don’t want.”  Up close it is a #3- car, at best. Runs and drives nice, but everything else is +meh+. At $40K, it’d be priced high considering what it needs to get it to where it’d be worth the $67.5K that the seller is dreaming about. 

Gee, it's priced like a #1 and that inspector knocked it down to a #3, not contesting this inspector,  but saying "this car is not for you" is a pretty strong opinion. I am curious as to why he/she made that statement and knock it down two points.

[edinmass]

32 minutes ago, deac said:

Gee, it's priced like a #1 and that inspector knocked it down to a #3, not contesting this inspector,  but saying "this car is not for you" is a pretty strong opinion. I am curious as to why he/she made that statement and knock it down two points.

 

I routinely look at cars for people, and 95 percent of the time I recommend they pass. Fact is very few cars are actually done right, but it seems all of the half assed restorations are looking for Pebble Beach money. I warn my customers ahead of time that it’s rare when I recommend they purchase a car. 
 

Simple fact.......buy the car that won first in class at Pebble...........it’s the cheapest way to own a perfect car, and you usually only have to pay forty cents on the dollar of the actual restoration cost.........you will still be upside down in the car, but at least you will have a good car. 

[Matt Harwood]

My respect for auto inspectors borders on zero, and I'm not saying that as a dealer who resents them for "saving" my customers from my unscrupulousness. Whether it was the nationally known company with three initials who inspected a tan car and sent our client pictures of a rusty green one and said that we were lying to her, or the inspector who looked at an Orbit Orange Pontiac GTO he was there to inspect and said, "Wow, I didn't know they made orange Mustangs!" or the guy who was actually riding with me in a 1962 Lincoln Continental and asked, "Is this car an automatic or manual transmission?" WHILE HE WAS RIDING WITH ME. Oh, and I forgot to mention the creep who talked someone out of buying a car he inspected, then called and tried to buy it for himself. Or the loser who showed up and we had the car already on the lift and he asked us to take it off because he "didn't trust lifts and preferred to look at cars on the ground."

 

I regard inspectors as deal killers. They don't know anything you don't, they don't do any special tests, they aren't experts of any kind except on how to take your money. They maybe went to a seminar at the airport Holiday Inn for an afternoon and after that, they're "accredited." I think I've had one or two deals go through out of dozens (hundreds?) where an inspector looked at the car and the buyer bought it anyway, and you guys know I don't deal in trash. I don't even waste my time helping them inspect the car--I just show them where it is in the showroom and go back to work.

 

Inspectors actually don't want you buying the car so they're not exposed to any risk if they missed something. They've got your money and you think they're a hero for saving you from a turd (you'll never see the car, not like you'll ever know, right?). Better yet, you'll use them next time so they turned one $250 payday into two or three. It's all BS.

 

I'd trust what the seller says as much as anything an inspector tells you, no matter how knowledgeable he seems. They're not there to help you. No, they're there to make their money and insulate themselves from any liability. You not buying the car is the goal, not a side-effect.

 

For every guy saved from a turd there are probably five guys who didn't buy a decent car because an inspector shait all over it.

 

Go see it yourself, it's the only way to be sure. An inspector isn't on your side and isn't interested in helping you, and may not even be smart enough to give you any good information at all. It's just an illusion predicated on people being too busy or lazy to go themselves.

[deac]

The reply from Matt is exactly the reason I raised the question in my reply.  I have heard stories from numerous sellers about the antics of inspectors.  They kiss the sellers ass and tell them what a great car they're selling and then write the report that butchers the car to the prospective buyer.  I know most inspectors don't know much of anything about cars but they were contracting by an unscrupulous national inspection company to cover a territory.  Those inspectors are just warm bodies and are really not qualified in the least to do inspections. 

 

I don't pat myself on the back as a perfect inspector, I am just doing a quality job for customer that's thinking of spending thousands of dollars on a car that he/she hopes it's not a piece of crap.  I report on what I see and not what the seller, me or buyer wants me to report; just on what it is at the time of inspection.  I would most likely pass on a 'Pebble Beach' type car.  It's just too subjective and the money that's being contemplated is through the roof.  That adds to the pressure on the inspector.  If you're talking that sort of inspection go out see for yourself

[edinmass]

First off, I agree 99 percent of the inspectors are more like inspector Clouseau, than real car guys. I only do pre war stuff. My price for a day? 1500 plus all costs….flight,rental, ect……. That eliminates any car under 50k 99 percent of the time. In this world, you get what you pay for…….some of the time, and excellence is almost impossible to find……and hire. I really don’t like the inspection business and try and only do it for friends and major collectors who won’t second guess my opinion. No, I don’t do appraisals………fact is, if a car is truly rare you don’t have any variety as to what you can purchase………and if you need to do the numbers in any direction, you won’t end up with the car anyways.

 

PS- I don’t do a condition report, I don’t compose ten paragraphs on the car. It’s a conversation of expectations, people who buy a old car based on price will NEVER be happy with their purchase. People who buy based on condition, authenticity, drivability, and get a feeling for a car they can’t or won’t look at themselves for whatever reason usually have realistic expectations. And ever conversation I have just before the phone hangs up is…….expect to put 25k minimum into a true 100 point car to go down the road……and it could hit 50k in the blink of an eye. Big cars generate big bills. Sadly, the hobby isn’t getting cheaper. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[suchan]

The “this car is not for you” is puzzling, but knocking an alleged #1 car to #3 isn’t. It’s amazing what some people think a #1 car looks like, or maybe hope to convince a buyer it looks like.

I understand the frustration legitimate and knowledgeable dealers have with them, but there are competent and honest inspectors out there. I used an inspector my first long-distance purchase. It was far cheaper than flying 2500 miles, and at my stage in the hobby at the time, I wouldn’t have known what to look for. I wouldn’t do that now; if I couldn’t go see the car in person, I’d look for a club member in the area who could, but for a greenhorn, it worked out well. I bought the car, and used the inspection report to negotiate a better price.

[Matt Harwood]

I am not convinced that this car is priced wildly out of range, although it does have some obvious issues that may need to be addressed. Better cars are available, but they are considerably more expensive. I know of a Lancaster Gray one that's a fresh #1 quality Doug Seybold restoration that can probably be had for $125,000. Perhaps that puts the subject car into perspective a bit--it's probably a #3 or 3+ and there's no shame in that. I recently sold a pretty nice Super convertible for about $45,000, which is another data point. Unfortunately, once you drive a big series Buick driving a small series car is just not the same. As a driver, I'd rather have a scruffy Roadmaster than a really nice Super.

[edinmass]

 

Today, it’s not so much what a Buick is worth.......it’s what you can buy for the equivalent money. A open Buick is a great car........but at the numbers getting tossed around a Pierce 12 sedan or a Packard 8 coupe come into the same range. Unless you have a specific Buick buyer, you have lots of competition in the nice used car market right now. Buyers have more choices......supply is up, so the buyer has mor purchasing power and can afford to be price sensitive. I recently saw a fabulous big car for sale at 50 cents on the dollar.....in my humble opinion. It’s still for sale two weeks later, so my market estimate of the car was way off........and I do this all day long. Unless cars are exceptionally well restored and are still as show level, cars that are less than perfect or show wear and patina can be very hard sells unless you market them on price. 
 

The competition on this car isn’t from other Buick’s......it’s from EVERYTHING.

Edited December 19, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Hans1965]

For the inexperienced like me, what makes this car already a #3 car 'only' just from the photos? To me this is a super gorgeous car. What do I not see? Thank you. 

[alsancle]

My comments:

 

1.  Inspectors are useless.   We could go on and on with examples why,  but they just are.

 

2.  I think this car is attractive,  although the yellow tells me 1980s restoration.

 

3.  The yellowing whitewalls tells me that the restoration is getting old.

 

4.  No idea on pricing,  but by observation 90% of everything advertised is priced 50-25% over what it will actually sell for.   About 25% might not sell for 1/4 the ask.

[kgreen]

 

8 hours ago, Hans1965 said:

For the inexperienced like me, what makes this car already a #3 car 'only' just from the photos? To me this is a super gorgeous car. What do I not see? Thank you. 

The car has the many difficult to find parts that are missing or hard to find on this year car.  That would be the chrome trim at the wheel shields, the rocker panel molding, presumably the correct wheels, the pneumatic antenna.  I see fog lights but can't tell if it has the correct dash switch.  The paint looks good though some of the edges look hastily prepped.  There is no way to tell if the body has a pint or 10 gallons of body filler based on the photos in the original advertisement.  It is also difficult to tell how body panels line up given the lack of detail available in the photos.  No telling what the drive train has for wear.  It may not be a show car, but as Matt says, its the big series and would be fun to drive.  If you're a Buick guy you might pay around $50k or as Ed says, you're an enthusiast and will find another marque for the same money.   If the seller is who I think it is, there may be more than a pint a bondo on the car.

[Matt Harwood]

16 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Today, it’s not so much what a Buick is worth.......it’s what you can buy for the equivalent money. A open Buick is a great car........but at the numbers getting tossed around a Pierce 12 sedan or a Packard 8 coupe come into the same range. Unless you have a specific Buick buyer, you have lots of competition in the nice used car market right now. Buyers have more choices......supply is up, so the buyer has mor purchasing power and can afford to be price sensitive. I recently saw a fabulous big car for sale at 50 cents on the dollar.....in my humble opinion. It’s still for sale two weeks later, so my market estimate of the car was way off........and I do this all day long. Unless cars are exceptionally well restored and are still as show level, cars that are less than perfect or show wear and patina can be very hard sells unless you market them on price. 
 

The competition on this car isn’t from other Buick’s......it’s from EVERYTHING.

[AdamInNH]

On 12/19/2021 at 9:25 AM, deac said:

Gee, it's priced like a #1 and that inspector knocked it down to a #3, not contesting this inspector,  but saying "this car is not for you" is a pretty strong opinion. I am curious as to why he/she made that statement and knock it down two points.

Want to see the photos? This car is so ridiculously overstated as to condition. The seller is in fantasyland.

[AdamInNH]

17 hours ago, kgreen said:

 

The car has the many difficult to find parts that are missing or hard to find on this year car.  That would be the chrome trim at the wheel shields, the rocker panel molding, presumably the correct wheels, the pneumatic antenna.  I see fog lights but can't tell if it has the correct dash switch.  The paint looks good though some of the edges look hastily prepped.  There is no way to tell if the body has a pint or 10 gallons of body filler based on the photos in the original advertisement.  It is also difficult to tell how body panels line up given the lack of detail available in the photos.  No telling what the drive train has for wear.  It may not be a show car, but as Matt says, its the big series and would be fun to drive.  If you're a Buick guy you might pay around $50k or as Ed says, you're an enthusiast and will find another marque for the same money.   If the seller is who I think it is, there may be more than a pint a bondo on the car.

The seller is JB Donaldson, the steering wheel resto guy. 

[AdamInNH]

19 hours ago, alsancle said:

My comments:

 

1.  Inspectors are useless.   We could go on and on with examples why,  but they just are.

 

2.  I think this car is attractive,  although the yellow tells me 1980s restoration.

 

3.  The yellowing whitewalls tells me that the restoration is getting old.

 

4.  No idea on pricing,  but by observation 90% of everything advertised is priced 50-25% over what it will actually sell for.   About 25% might not sell for 1/4 the ask.

Not all inspectors are useless - many, but not all. The one that I had look at the car is well respected and has been around this stuff since he was in diapers.

 

Yes, the car is attractive. Yes, I was keenly interested. If the car had been even in the same condition galaxy as advertised and as represented by the seller over the phone, I’d have been a buyer. Not even close. 

[Hans1965]

Still don't get what makes this car a #3 car only. 

[1937McBuick]

I am completely out of my league to comment.  But.....

It's obvious money was spent.

Sounds like "value" and buying any restored car,  almost of any grade quality,  are not synonymous.

You want to drive it or look at it?

I already know my project will never be "Pebble Beach" quality.

I already know I am in way over my head on the project.

I already know there is no ROI, on what I've done....or ever will be.

Few people restore a car "to make money",  remember there is little value in the money spent,  that's already been pointed out by others.

What price do you put on something that gives you pride and joy?   Whether the auto was bought finished or you did it yourself or paid someone else to do.

 

Opinions are like A-holes,  everyone's got one and some stink more than others.

If I only listened to what other people thought,  I'd have done nothing.....

 

Ya ya....  there's always something better....

 

Take care and have a very Merry Christmas and a healthy happy New Year.

[deac]

I disagree with the statement inspectors are useless. Adaminnh has seen the car most of us commenting on the post have not; including me!  He did an inspection and found it be in not near the condition it's priced at.  Right there is the usefulness of an inspector.  If I contracted an inspector and I got feedback like in this case it would at least give me as the prospective buyer an idea of what this car is.  But that inspector would be somebody I spoke with and was comfortable with his knowledge.

 

I was not contesting condition of  a #3 rating; but more curious what was found that that knocked it down from a #1.  A roadmaster convertible coupe is a rare car and I do agree it better be in damn nice shape to fetch near the kind of money the buyer is asking.

[Buickborn]

On 12/19/2021 at 7:36 AM, Matt Harwood said:

I'd trust what the seller says as much as anything an inspector tells you, no matter how knowledgeable he seems. They're not there to help you. No, they're there to make their money and insulate themselves from any liability. You not buying the car is the goal, not a side-effect.

Trust what the seller says?  Well, maybe, if you take care to translate into reality the self-serving baloney that the motivation to sell can generate.  I think I figured this out when I bought a '41 Cadillac without an inspection on eBay some years ago, asking detailed questions and getting answers like:

 

"Smokes a little on coast"  [translation:  resembles a mosquito-spraying operation].

"Uses very little oil" [except when the engine is running].

"Strong performer"  [up through 45 mph, because a stump-pulling commercial differential had been retrofitted].

"Seems to handle well"  [because the rear springs had been replaced with heavily arched truck springs, causing the car to ride like a hay wagon and use tall lowering blocks to level the car].

"A few paint specks caused by nearby house painting on a windy day" [a few specks. The hundreds of others were caused by solvent popping due to incompetent re-painting].

"No sign of an accident"  [because there are signs of several].

"A little Bondo on the fender skirts"  [and a ton of it on the rest of the car].

"No visible rust"  [unless you look]. 

 

Say what you will; no inspector possessed of two functioning synapses would have let me buy that car.

 

So, the next time I consider a purchase like that one, perhaps I can get someone here to refresh my memory as to why I don't need an inspector.

 

 

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

My point was that inspectors are just as ignorant and uninformed as sellers often are, but with the added bonus of having an agenda that's actually contrary to your interests. I guess in that regard, the inspector might have saved you but not for the reasons you think. However, I did not mean to imply that sellers are particularly virtuous, although my experience says that most sellers are merely ignorant of how old cars work rather than intentionally and actively dishonest. While we assume around here that old car owners are well-versed in all the aspects of their cars and know all their intimate details, the truth is most guys just own an old car and figure that if it shakes, rattles, and smokes down the road, well, that's just how old cars were back then. They assume that because other uninformed people like their car at the local church parking lot car show, it's show quality. They literally don't know the difference.

 

I also doubt that an inspector would have found most of the things on your list as issues beyond the paint specks and maybe (maybe) the smoke. He never would have noticed the gears, the springs, the oil consumption, the bondo, any signs of an accident, and unless there was a lift, he might not even have found any rust. They don't even know what to look for, never mind recognizing what they see.

 

Once again, the only way to be sure you get what you expect is to go see the car yourself. Period.

[Buickborn]

Well, of course, Matt is 100% correct here.  But I’ve found that expending a large amount of time and money to look at a car can place a buyer in a bad bargaining position, by virtue of signaling to the seller that he/she, the seller, has a hot prospect in hand.

 

Some years ago, I encountered a seller brazen enough to actually say, “I know you want this, or else you wouldn’t have come all this way to see it.”

 

Two years later the seller called me offering the car for a price far lower than his original “firm” figure, but by then I’d moved on — with considerable doubts about whether chasing across the country is any way to bargain for a car or anything else.

[Matt Harwood]

As a frequent seller, I never regard someone coming to see a car as a negotiating advantage for me. It simply says they're serious about making sure the car is what I say it is and I take that seriously. In fact, a lot of guys start with their goofing around and nit-picking and I'm about to walk away from the discussions and tell them they don't appear to be serious buyers, they point out that if they weren't serious they wouldn't have made the trip. That often turns things around. Seriousness of intent can be a plus for the buyer, not a weakness.

 

Besides there's really no reason to hold your cards so close to the vest in a car negotiation--it's simply a discussion about a car's value. It shouldn't be about tricks or outsmarting someone or using some kind of tactic. When it's respectful and both sides get something they want, it's a win-win. 

 

It's the game-players and guys who treat me like I have some special tricks that I'll use on them that end up having a frustrating experience. The only trick I have is that I've already seen all of yours.

[trimacar]

I've sold a bunch of cars in the last fifty years, and it's never bothered me that someone comes to look at it in person.  In fact, when selling a car sight unseen is when I get the jitters, because my eyes and the buyer's eyes don't see the same thing.

 

I sold a 1911 Hupmobile to a gentleman in Switzerland.  He paid my asking price, and before it was shipped a MUCH better 1911 Hupp was offered to me by someone in Texas.  I contacted the fellow in Switzerland, told him he could get a MUCH better car at roughly the same price, here's the seller information, and you're welcome to back out of our deal.  He said no and bought them both!

 

What I DON'T care for is someone who starts pointing out every little flaw and tying that to the purchase price.  First of all, I'm a car guy and realize that the chrome on that bumper isn't the best, but I factored that in my asking price.   I once had a fellow come look at a car with his mechanic, he had two pages of notes and he started saying "Well, these fasteners aren't correct so that's $200 off price and this isn't right so that's $100 off price...." and had lots to go.  I stopped him and said here's the price, you can make an offer, but we're not doing it your way.  Funny thing is he made an offer for more than I expected and he bought the car.

 

To points already made, most people don't know a #1, hundred point car, they ignore the most obvious things that make a car a 2 or 3.  I do know that, having seen thousands of cars over the years, the true #1 cars are easy to recognize.  Just walking up to one and it's usually as obvious as can be....

[Buickborn]

Wow — interesting, thoroughly persuasive, positive food for thought, guys.  I guess the only idea I’ve read here that has me scratching my head has to do with getting into discussions with a seller about the value of his or her car.  My experience has been that to call the seller’s value claims into question (no matter how respectfully or diplomatically) is a first-class way to get the seller’s back up and end up at an impasse.

 

Probably the best approach is simply to submit an offer and leave the debating to the politicians.

 

In any case, for someone like me — admittedly a little jaded after quite a variety of unpleasant experiences with sellers — it is VERY reassuring to read here about the thoughts of sellers who are clearly conscientious, ethical, informed, and fair-minded.  Nice to know you’re out there!

[AdamInNH]

Folks, there’s some good discussion and points of view, in this thread. First, I will not buy a car without seeing it in person. I won’t buy at auction, nor under duress. If I miss out on a car, fine - there’s always another one, or more than one, coming along. 

In this instance, the person that I recruited to preview this car for me does not make his livlihood as an +inspector+. He does this for friends and club members and has zero stake in a transaction, either way. He knows his sh*t as well as anyone in regards to pre-War Full Classics; he also understands the sort of car I’m looking for. Wether it’s a great car, or not, he calls it honestly with detail to back it up. If a previewed car is of further interest to me, I’ll travel to see and drive the car myself. I don’t do this as a first pass, as years back, I wasted a lot of time, money and airplane butt time schlepping across country only to see something that I was ready to walk away from in 20 seconds, more than once.

 

This ‘41 Buick is a decent car - but not a great car. I am not interested in a Doug Seybold +perfect+ car. I want to drive it as a tour car, but it has to be damn nice and mechanically A-1. I am not looking for a lawn ornament. This one isn’t at all as represented. Simple as that. If you need further evidence as to what makes this car far less than the seller states, hop on a plane to Phoenix and view it for yourself. It’s easy to armchair-quarterback 😉.
 

 

[B Jake Moran]

I would say the best inspector is an unpaid club member. They might not be an expert but they aren’t paid, are looking at a car as if they were buying it and you can follow up by having a conversation with a friend who has no financial interest in the inspection.  
 

I want to see some of the 150 negative photos because Hemmings has dozens of photos and they all look good to me.  Sequoia Cream is a correct paint color if I am not mistaken.  
 

Hemmings photos show a lot to like.  All I am saying is let’s see it in a different perspective.  
 

If the car is not honestly presented, folks need to know. The ad content states it received a recent restoration on a low mileage car.  How “off” can it be?   I do not care for an ad that hides problems.  
 

[2carb40]

On 12/21/2021 at 1:10 AM, AdamInNH said:

The seller is JB Donaldson, the steering wheel resto guy. 

Nuff said! I know enuff about his "restored"! Nice steering wheel resto though.

[AdamInNH]

Yes, the steering wheel is very nice. I am advised by someone with extensive knowledge of the ‘41 Roadmaster that the steering wheel and horn button should be a lighter color, as below. But, what do I know?  And so it goes with the rest of the subject automobile. Now, “nuff said!”  Next…
 

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