The "Victoria Coupe" body style of 1914-1934

[hidden_hunter]

 

 

As far as I'm aware, no 5 passenger coupes were actually fitted with that seating arrangement and they actually just had the same front seat arrangement as the Victoria. The body style is cut into the wood of the body so I know mine is a five passenger coupe rather than a Victoria

 

The drivers seat is unusually uncomfortable in that it makes you sit pretty much bolt upright 

[hidden_hunter]

 

Gotta love that 90 day warranty on your $4000 car...

[ron hausmann]

4 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Ron H, I love that car! I think I had spotted it in the background of a photo you posted recently?

Wayne - yes it lives with my other complete nickel-era Kissels at the M1 Car Condominium in Pontiac Michigan.  Once the cars are done being restored from scratch, they move there from my filthy restoration shop in Sylvan Lake Michigan

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, hidden_hunter said:

 

 

As far as I'm aware, no 5 passenger coupes were actually fitted with that seating arrangement and they actually just had the same front seat arrangement as the Victoria. The body style is cut into the wood of the body so I know mine is a five passenger coupe rather than a Victoria

 

The drivers seat is unusually uncomfortable in that it makes you sit pretty much bolt upright 

 

Is the outer body identical?   How does the 5 passenger accommodate the drivers seat when the 4 shows it set back so far?

[Walt G]

If you stare at the overhead seating patter accommodation, the victoria seems to have a slightly deeper trunk area, not really distinguishable but the lid says to me it is larger then the 5 passenger. Even 5 inches more room will give that much more floor and seat space.  the victoria has a shelf - not a seat area behind the drivers seat.

I have seen this arrangement on several other cars over the years but with the lack of popularity of this body style then and now ( with collectors) it is difficult to see one in person. Salesman's data books may give the exact measurements of the inside of the car but usually only in profile. I know Pierce Arrow did in their data books for a brief while. Have to try to find one here in my library. I will post if I do.

[58L-Y8]

9 hours ago, Tph479 said:

Another play on names, not a Victoria Coupe, but a Coupe Sedan….which Ford called a Victoria!

Apparently a Ford connection was more than just coincidental.  Ford had introduced their Model A victoria with the close-coupled proportions and bustle trunk concurrent with the development of Packard's Light Eight 900.    Ed Macauley, Packard's styling department director was taken with the Model A victoria styling and proportions, requested chief designer Werner Gubitz create just such a body style for the upcoming Light Eight.    The Fords and Macauleys families were friends socially, Edsel Ford no doubt gave his approval for this complimentary inspiration engendered by his Model A victoria .

[58L-Y8]

3 hours ago, Walt G said:

"If you stare at the overhead seating patter accommodation, the victoria seems to have a slightly deeper trunk area, not really distinguishable but the lid says to me it is larger then the 5 passenger. Even 5 inches more room will give that much more floor and seat space.  the victoria has a shelf - not a seat area behind the drivers seat."

Walt has defined the subtle proportional nuances between seemingly identical body styles that were possible with composite construction.

[Walt G]

To many decades of study and observation of real examples as well as tons of period information that I have been fortunate enough to be made aware of and then have available to look at. Many collections of paper here and in Europe that have now been dispersed or no longer are available to view. I am blessed with a bit of a photographic memory as well ( but that is also a selective memory for stuff I like not for everything )

[hidden_hunter]

4 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

7 hours ago, Walt G said:

 

Walt has defined the subtle proportional nuances between seemingly identical body styles that were possible with composite construction.

I don’t think the drawings are that accurate because it shows the steering wheel being offset as well

[oldcarfudd]

The steering wheel is in the same place on both cars, but the driver's seat on the victoria is crunched over to the left.  The poor driver is sitting sideways.

[wayne sheldon]

5 minutes ago, oldcarfudd said:

The steering wheel is in the same place on both cars, but the driver's seat on the victoria is crunched over to the left.  The poor driver is sitting sideways.

 

I cannot remember what it was? Or who it belonged to? (That bugs me because I almost always remember such details? Besides, I rarely drive other people's cars.) But I drove a car like that some years back. I found it annoying to say the least. Being annoying to sit behind the wheel really stuck with me though. Anybody have a car like this to let me have and use, for say ten years? I would like to find out if I would get used to it.

Driving that car for just a block or so made me feel like I had to drive it "side-saddle"!

[hidden_hunter]

1 hour ago, oldcarfudd said:

The steering wheel is in the same place on both cars, but the driver's seat on the victoria is crunched over to the left.  The poor driver is sitting sideways.

From the photos I’ve seen of the Victoria  it looks like it’s in the same position as the 5 passenger coupe so could just be the drawing 

[alsancle]

This just came up for sale:

 

 

 

[John Bloom]

I can picture how great looking that thing would be if someone took it on. That car needs to be all black.

 

I’ll be encouraging my wealthy friends to take that one on.

[Walt G]

I agree with John about the color - all black or a very deep blue with black fenders and dark color on the wood wheels ( so they don't wind up looking like a roulette wheel)

the final accent would be a really good pin stripe on both the body and the wheels as well. Kinda neat that the Westinghouse air shocks are in place on the front of the car still.

[wayne sheldon]

Walt G, I remember a lot of cars (and White trucks!) years ago that had those Westinghouse air shocks on them. A good friend had a 1921 Hudson Speedster (official marketing name for a sleek four passenger touring car), another well known fellow had a 1912 Pierce Arrow roadster (now re-restored in a large private collection) that was driven a lot! I remember a Lincoln or two (seemed unusual?) and a few Cadillacs. In recent years, one just doesn't seem to see them very often, even in published photographs.

I spent some several minutes last night looking closely at the photos of this Cadillac in the for sale section! Yes it would be a major undertaking restoration-wise, but it really does not look all that bad either. I really like that style! If I didn't already have four very worthwhile or necessary restorations ahead of me already, I would be be thinking foolish thoughts about it.

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/376942-1919-cadillac-victoria-coupe-20k/#comment-2353211

 

I think the price is too high in today's market, given the car's condition. However, maybe?

[prewar40]

How about a four door Victoria.  1927 Gardner model 90.
Landau irons and a divided front seat appear to be the difference from the Brougham.

[alsancle]

5 minutes ago, prewar40 said:

How about a four door Victoria.  1927 Gardner model 90.
Landau irons and a divided front seat appear to be the difference from the Brougham.

I wonder why they call it a Victoria? Looks like a close coupled sedan.  However, I do like the body style.

[Gunsmoke]

How about a four door Victoria.  1927 Gardner model 90. Appear identical cars except for the folding side-irons, is it possible rear part of top folded on the Victoria? Otherwise what is difference other than noted front seat arrangement. 

[bryankazmer]

Marketing department obfuscation.  It has 4 doors- not a Victoria

[wayne sheldon]

And THIS is why so many people are confused about what to call so many cars!

Ninety-nine percent of all cars ever manufactured fit just fine into common body style definitions. A few small production marketing ploys and wild customs make up that other one percent.

Some crossover terms like "coach" ("two-door sedans"), and the various offshoots of "coupes" (which sometimes include two-door sedans?) create some issues for quite a lot of cars, but are generally not seriously a problem. Marketing anomalies like these give credibility to misnamed cars, and those that misname them. I wish we could get people to stop calling a 1910s or 1920s "touring car" a "sedan", just because it has a front seat and a back seat. There is such a thing as a "touring sedan", but other than a few rarities in earlier years, they came about a bit later (mid 1930s).

[George K]

Saw this awhile ago. Bad photos but interesting as this was body types 1920

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I've always admired the Studebaker version of these cars. They called their victorias "St Regis" models. As classy a moniker as might be thought up. Here we see Laurel and Hardy sitting side by side on the rocker panel area of a "President". Doubtless this was to illustrate the generous clearances that allowed passengers to enter the rear comfortably:

 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I suppose that it's possible that Oliver Hardy really was wearing green shoes to this photo shoot, but I'll bet we'll never know for sure.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

I do not believe there is an actual guide / definition for a cars model names. I think it was what ever the manufacturer wanted to call the car model - Victoria, coupe or even 5 passenger sedan.  Was there not Victoria name plates that Ford used in the 50s? 

Maybe some one here can shed some light on the use the model name Victoria. 

[George K]

This is the beginning of Victoria. 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

1 hour ago, Joe in Canada said:

I do not believe there is an actual guide / definition for a cars model names. I think it was what ever the manufacturer wanted to call the car model - Victoria, coupe or even 5 passenger sedan.  Was there not Victoria name plates that Ford used in the 50s? 

Maybe some one here can shed some light on the use the model name Victoria. 

Maybe it will remain Victoria's secret!

[Joe in Canada]

On 4/1/2022 at 9:49 PM, Hudsy Wudsy said:

Maybe it will remain Victoria's secret!

I checked and they do not make a bra that fits the front of my car.

[1937hd45]

 

That brings memories, back in the 1970's we couldn't unbolt that body fast enough and replace it with a Roadster body. 

[Avanti Bill]

The Coachbuilt website give the following definition:

 

VICTORIA - a close coupled two door sedan or an enlarged coupe with a rear seat also known as an OPERA COUPE. Also a four door open car with folding top over the rear seat only. Known in France as a COUPE MILORD.

 

None of these cars fit what I always thought of a "Victoria" body.  I have always thought of Victoria's as a 4/5 passenger car, 2 doors with no side windows for the back seat so the public could not see the rear seat passengers and the passengers privacy would not be infringed upon by the unwashed.  Most are on full classic cars and many if not most are convertible.  I'm sure I have been ill informed all these years.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Apparently, Edsel Ford was fond of this style of conveyance. Here's an article on the subject:

 

Edsel’s Favorites: The Ford Victorias | Mac's Motor City Garage (macsmotorcitygarage.com)

 

[Graham Man]

1928 Graham-Paige 619 (Big Six) Victoria Coupe

 

 

1928 Graham-Paige 614 Victoria Coupe

 

 

1928 Graham-Paige 610 Victoria Coupe

 

 

All the Graham-Paige examples have a single rear seat, on the passenger side and a small desk looking area behind the drivers seat.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Graham Man (see edit history)

[TG57Roadmaster]

1932 Hupmobile I-226 Victoria, 8 cylinders, 126-inch wheelbase. 

 

 

A survivor was shown at Cincinnati's 2001 Concours d'Elegance at Ault Park.

http://cincyconcours.com/2001/h01e9.htm

 

TG

 

[TG57Roadmaster]

1924 Rickenbacker Six Coupe for four passengers. It features a folding front passenger seat and the short 2-passenger rear seat with platform behind the driver. 

 

I wouldn't presume to call it a Victoria, but it is typical of 4-5 passenger coupes of the day.

 

TG

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history)

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, TG57Roadmaster said:

1932 Hupmobile I-226 Victoria, 8 cylinders, 126-inch wheelbase. 

 

 

A survivor was shown at Cincinnati's 2001 Concours d'Elegance at Ault Park.

http://cincyconcours.com/2001/h01e9.htm

 

TG

 

 

 

One of my favorites but very hard to find.   Was on my search list for a very long time but I think that ship has sailed.

 

 

[Walt G]

I have some coach builders periodicals "trade" publications here and I know that there were articles or at least one anyway to define the assorted body styles/types . Since WWII and the addition of many people who became collectors nomenclature has gone so many different ways , all claiming that what they call a certain body style "the correct name" because via general use they heard it the most. Even when new car manufacturers tried to enhance their offerings with assorted creative names and titles to draw attention to themselves . Kinda like some collectors do today........but this really calls for a definitive article. I did touch on this with an illustrated story of what bodies were what some time ago.

[TG57Roadmaster]

3 hours ago, Walt G said:

I have some coach builders periodicals "trade" publications here and I know that there were articles or at least one anyway to define the assorted body styles/types . Since WWII and the addition of many people who became collectors nomenclature has gone so many different ways , all claiming that what they call a certain body style "the correct name" because via general use they heard it the most. Even when new car manufacturers tried to enhance their offerings with assorted creative names and titles to draw attention to themselves . Kinda like some collectors do today........but this really calls for a definitive article. I did touch on this with an illustrated story of what bodies were what some time ago.

A definitive article would be helpful but, as you say, builders were guilty of enhanced nomenclature, too. What most now call a dual cowl phaeton was a Sport Phaeton in period parlance, and the over-used Town Car (the Kleenex of auto misnomers) was most often called a Cabriolet or Town Cabriolet back in the day. When goombahs jump in and insist, "No, a cabriolet is a convertible!", that is the time I head for the exits.

 

TG

[Walt G]

Tom, your last sentence says it all, and we both will be at the exit the same time - I will be the one with my eyes rolling in my head looking up shaking my head .

Walt

[TG57Roadmaster]

I’ll hold the door for both of us, Walt.

TG

[8E45E]

On 4/7/2022 at 3:06 PM, TG57Roadmaster said:

A definitive article would be helpful but, as you say, builders were guilty of enhanced nomenclature, too. What most now call a dual cowl phaeton was a Sport Phaeton in period parlance, and the over-used Town Car (the Kleenex of auto misnomers) was most often called a Cabriolet or Town Cabriolet back in the day. When goombahs jump in and insist, "No, a cabriolet is a convertible!", that is the time I head for the exits.

Oh, the windbaggery of the '70s!  What made me laugh was when GM called all their redesigned '73 A-body sedans and coupes as  "Colonnade hardtops" just because the doors didn't have window frames.  But neither did Cadillac Fleetwood sedans, certain Buick Electra and Olds 98 sedans that preceeded them by several years as well as Citroen DS/ID models and '58 through '79 full-size Lincolns, and not one of them were ever implied as 'hardtops' by their respective sales departments. 

 

Admittedly, decades earlier, Studebaker was guilty of labeling their much desirable 1931 Four Seasons Roadster a 'roadster' even though it really wasn't one as it had fully lowering windows.

 

Craig