1921 Olds 47F

[Shylo]

I can buy a 1921 olds 47 F for 12,000.00. It is all there and is in excellent condition. Has been inside most of it's life. It runs and drives. Thoughts?

Edited July 8, 2021 by Shylo (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

Buy it and have some fun!!!!

[motoringicons]

That looks like a good looking and honest old car. The price certainly seems fair. Buy it, sort it out and drive it. 

[Shylo]

I was thinking about cleaning it up and selling it later.

[rocketraider]

One of 3085 per Standard Catalog of Oldsmobile. These are interesting in that they are among the V8 cars Olds produced from 1916-1923.

 

If it runs stops and drives you're way ahead of the game. It looks decent enough to show in HPOF (Historical Preservation of Original Features) class especially if you find it hasn't been buggered with much over the last 100 years.

[Steve Moskowitz]

I think the car you are looking at is a 47-T.  The T refers to it being a 5 passenger touring. They did not make an F in 1921.  That being said they are an interesting car but be sure the engine is solid.  I have owned several V-8 Oldsmobiles of this vintage and the two main bearings always scared the hell out of me.  Not a lot of demand for these basic cars but of course I love them,  If you are just looking to flip the car be careful as it might be a tougher sell than you think.

[Bloo]

You might have better luck at the casino.

 

It is a very cool car in my opinion. I would love to own something like that, but don't have room. The advice in this thread so far is very good. It might be a good entry point to the hobby if you are not scared of spending some money.

 

Seriously though, old cars have not been profit makers any time in recent history, and more recently the bottom is falling out. It is also a Nickel Era car, and historically Nickel era cars cost less than their earlier or later peers and are difficult to sell. If you don't want it for yourself it is probably a bad idea.

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[vermontboy]

Be careful in "cleaning it up". Patina is highly valued. Much like polishing fine antiques your well intentioned efforts could substantially reduce the sell price. Substantially.

Edited July 8, 2021 by vermontboy
choice of words (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

An interesting car to be sure. But very few cars of this era have either a strong demand or a potential financial upside. Quite a few cars of this sort are trickling onto the marketplace and over the next decade that is only going to accelerate.  Few people under 60 have any interest in this era, and many already own something similar. Slow by vintage car standards , and brakes that work best at the 45 MPH and under speeds these cars seem to be happiest at.  Someone will want to own it for sure , but probably not with much of a profit margin added to the price.

 And double on vermontboy's comment, you would want to do nothing but a very light clean, and careful mechanical  check out  on a car like this. Anything that looks " new " will stick out like a sore thumb.

Edited July 8, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Shylo]

Thanks everybody. I own a Auto body shop and mechanic shop in Southern Indiana. I have a lot of Muscle cars and was thinking about the older cars for awhile. This will be my First OLD car. I am thinking about keeping it now. I mean, It's 100 Years Old.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Now you are talking!!!  Great.....We just had a fabulous meet up north in Auburn and that car would have been a huge hit. 

[wayne sheldon]

"Flipping" -- MIGHT be a great way to make a lot of money, in real estate. The markets and required repairs are well enough understood by most people. And? Bargains needing quick quiet sales as-is are out there. For all sorts of reasons.

"Collectables" of any kind? Flipping is very risky unless you KNOW the specific market for the specific collectable. Nearly ALL collectables have pitfalls and nuances that require years of involvement to understand.

As an example, a bare model T Ford engine block could be worth as much as ten thousand dollars! So if you find one at a yard sale for a hundred bucks? You should buy it, right? The problem is that it is about a hundred times more likely that the one you buy at a yard sale will be worth less than ten dollars. You have to KNOW the differences.

Among the many other things I have collected in my life, I collected 78 rpm records from the early days (around 1902) up into the very early 1930s. One specific record, has two songs on it, that are very well known, famous for their lyrics, and sung by Al Jolson. One of the most famous singers and best entertainers of the first half of the 20th century. Should be valuable, right? The problem was it was TOO good. Not only did the record sell in huge (for the era) numbers? Nearly everybody loved it so much, that they kept it. And many people bought two and kept both! Every collector I ever met with an interest in Al Jolson owned at least two copies. They would have at least one slightly worn copy to play whenever the mood hits, and at least one nearly perfect copy just to treasure! There are many more copies of that record available than there are collectors wanting to buy one. So, no real demand, and no big dollars.

 

Collectables as flipping investments are very risky. Nine times out of ten, a flipper will be lucky to break even. We see it all the time in this hobby. A fair deal on a decent car. One that a person with real interest could maybe afford, and really enjoy. But some flipper buys it, ups the price too much, and tries for years to sell it. The car ends up sitting in bad storage, usually outside under a blue tarp. It begins to deteriorate quickly, and the value drops a lot to the point it can't be sold for even half what the flipper paid. Another artifact of our history destroyed.

 

Antique automobiles as 'flipping' items? If you need to ask questions about them? You shouldn't even be considering them for flipping. A wonderful hobby. Our real history is very important, especially these days. That car should be purchased, treasured, sorted driven and enjoyed for all to see.

There are several regulars on this forum that do flip cars and make money enough to buy and enjoy the cars they want. But with years in the hobby, they know the cars. They know the work required. And they know the market for them. Nearly all of those people improve the car's condition and sell to hobbyists with a desire to preserve the car. The car is likely better off when they handle them.

 

I see that you added some interest in keeping the car while I was typing! If you think you may want to do that? Welcome to what can be a wonderful and long-time passion! Personally, I have always loved and played with cars from that (we sometimes call it) nickel age. That era (between the horseless carriages and the full classics) has always been underappreciated. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[Shylo]

1 hour ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Now you are talking!!!  Great.....We just had a fabulous meet up north in Auburn and that car would have been a huge hit. 

I cannot wait.

[deaddds]

Just for reference, I went out to CA to look at a very similar year Olds with the V8 a couple years ago. Very nicely restored top to bottom and the asking price was 18K. Unfortunately it hadn’t been well maintained after all the work was done. Great eye candy but I’m no Ed and we couldn’t get it started. Probably explains why it was for sale so long. If they didn’t do the motor correctly, grab ur ass. That 12K would be a drop in a very deep bucket as the parts are almost unobtainium.

[rustyjazz1938]

@Shylo, I have a 1922 version of the same car. I've been going through an engine rebuild on mine and can offer, my thoughts, opinions on, and discoveries based on that experience if you're interested. The thread is over in the Our Cars and Restoration Projects section.

 

 

 

@Steve Moskowitz, I believe in 1921 the correct designation for a 5 passenger touring is a Model 47F. I have an instruction manual for my car printed in July 1921 that has a picture of the body style with the F designation.

 

However, I'm not certain why, Olds Motor Works changed the designation to 47T starting late in 1921 possibly in relation to other changes on the car (double water pumps, to single). My car is an early "1922" car with crankcase cast date of 7/13/21, low serial number (235) and a data plate stamped with 47T.

 

The two main bearing V8 is definitely not a high revving engine, however in a bit of digging that I have done in the GM R&D archives and the GM Heritage Center, I have seen advertising and reports stating no fault with the engine thought excessive driving feats. Not fast by today's scale, but a quick car in it's day, and has been pointed out one not seen very often on the road at shows.

 

Thanks for reading,

 

Rusty Berg

 

 

[hidden_hunter]

7 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

have owned several V-8 Oldsmobiles of this vintage and the two main bearings always scared the hell out of me.  Not a lot of demand for these basic cars but of course I love them,  If you are just looking to flip the car be careful as it might be a tougher sell than you think.

 

I was doing a bit of reading on it, and I was surprised that the power was quite low compared to the Cadillac V8 - wonder what the main difference was to make up such a power difference. It's more in line with some of the 6's of the period

[Steve Moskowitz]

Rusty, thanks...learn something every day.  I have never heard of the F designation or in my old age just forgot!  There were some guys who experienced broken crankshafts years ago but many who rebuilt their engines went to Moldex and had new better quality ones made.  I am sorry I never kept one of these V-8s but the restoration on my 1908 dictated the need to let something go. 

[rocketraider]

Well, Steve- maybe you and Shylo can work out a deal!🤝

[Steve Moskowitz]

Glenn, have you seen the amount of gray hair on my head?  At the point in life that new cars are not in the cards.

[58L-Y8]

Did Oldsmobile manufacture the V8 or was it sourced from Northway?

[rocketraider]

It's like I tell my auction house buddies when they say they have nowhere to put any more stuff, too old to take on a new collection etc- "When did that ever stop anybody?!"😜

 

I'm right there with you though. Plenty of cars I'd love to experience but lack of space and initiative, and a lower back that's kind of insistent that I don't need to attempt some things, convinces me my best option is a diecast model.

 

Did any Economy Trucks have the V8? The SCO doesn't cover them.

 

 

[rustyjazz1938]

@58L-Y8 According to "Setting the Pace - Oldsmobile's First 100 Years" by Helen Jones Early and James R. Walkinshaw, the Model 46 "heavy eight" was an older engine designed by Northway, but manufactured by the Olds Motor Works in Lansing. The Model 47 engine, the "light eight," has an aluminum crankcase, and was made in the same building as the "heavy eight," Building #21. In looking at pictures of the engines, the Northway influence is definitely present (see early Cadillac engines as well), but the Model 47 engine looks to be a derivative of the Model 46 developed by the chief engineer of Olds, a man named Robert K. Jack.

 

@rocketraider The Economy Trucks did not use the V8 engine. The engine in the trucks is a derivative of the 4 cylinder engine that was used in the Model 43A.

 

Thanks for reading,

 

Rusty Berg

[58L-Y8]

Rusty

 

Thanks for the detailed answer!   I noted the larger V8 in a specification book I have and wondered what the relationship between the two might be.   A  separate Northway Engines topic that pulls in all the knowledge about what they made or developed for various automakers might be appropriate.  

 

The primary reason to visit the Forum daily: knowledgeable historians generously sharing their knowledge and insights!

 

Steve 

[nickelroadster]

I have a 1923 that is almost a carbon copy of this one except for having disc wheels.  This engine was smaller (233 inches versus 247 inches for the big eight .  totally separate engine than the Northway.  They advertised it as having the highest horsepower per cubic inch of any American car.  Somehow that doesn't ring true but be be right for run of the mill kind of cars.  Oldsmobile spent five million bucks buying specialized machine tooling with this engine.  Sloan decreed that they couldn't keep building it after 1923 and they sold those new machine tools to Wills-SaintClaire for a million bucks.

[rocketraider]

What was Mr Sloan's reasoning behind forcing Olds to get rid of the V8? Outstepping its place in the Hierarchy?

[58L-Y8]

46 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

What was Mr Sloan's reasoning behind forcing Olds to get rid of the V8? Outstepping its place in the Hierarchy?

Alfred Sloan was still in the process of developing and implementing the "Sloan Ladder" as stated by "A Car for Every Purse and Purpose" hierarchy of price/nameplate structure in 1923.   He had inherited an chaotic mess with the departure of Billy Durant who was great at acquiring other carmakers but largely feckless at creating a profitable corporation with all companies contribution.  Sloan was Dupont's choice to bring organization and profitability from that chaos.   They couldn't have selected a better man to do so.

[nickelroadster]

Before Sloan came in, most of the GM units were "full service ".  They built all kinds of different cars.  Especially notice Buick.

[hidden_hunter]

On 7/10/2021 at 11:28 AM, rocketraider said:

 

What was Mr Sloan's reasoning behind forcing Olds to get rid of the V8? Outstepping its place in the Hierarchy?

 

I wonder if some of it was based on power output, if they already had the Cadillac motor producing more power they probably didn’t need the Chevrolet and Oldsmobile motors.

 

Though given how independent the manufacturers were I don’t know how thought went into handing over designs when they were rationalised 

[JRA]

I believe Sloan dedicated lots of time organizing Durant’s mess, so the Olds V-8 was discontinued at end of 1923 , however, for some reason he was convinced back when he launched in 1929 the short-living Viking, nothing more than a V8 Oldmobile.

Is there any connection between 1923 light V8 engine and the Viking V8 one?

Edited July 11, 2021 by JRA (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

1 hour ago, JRA said:

I believe Sloan dedicated lots of time organizing Durant’s mess, so the Olds V-8 was discontinued at end of 1923 , however, for some reason he was convinced back when he launched in 1929 the short-living Viking, nothing more than a V8 Oldmobile.

Is there any connection between 1923 light V8 engine and the Viking V8 one?

 

Not sure but I doubt it given the rapid pace of development, would be quite outclassed by then 

 

One thing that does make it hard 100 years later to understand their decisions is what the data and product roadmap was telling them at the time. 

[Dandy Dave]

I got a 1916 V8 Olds running years ago for a client. That was a sweet running engine when everything was right. If the one your looking at does not have any bad knocks, raps, skips, and if it does not blow a lot blue smoke out of the exhaust, then go get it and have some fun. Dandy Dave!  

[Stude Light]

On 7/11/2021 at 7:14 AM, JRA said:

I believe Sloan dedicated lots of time organizing Durant’s mess, so the Olds V-8 was discontinued at end of 1923 , however, for some reason he was convinced back when he launched in 1929 the short-living Viking, nothing more than a V8 Oldmobile.

Is there any connection between 1923 light V8 engine and the Viking V8 one?

I know this is an older post but I’ll reply to this question.

 

The Olds Northway 246 CID cast iron V8 is a two piece block split down the center with the two main bearings bolted sideways into left side. It uses a flat plane crankshaft with fork and blade connecting rods and has cast iron heads. The valves are in block and pretty much parallel to the pistons.

 

The Olds designed aluminum block 233CID V8 is a single cast aluminum lower block with two main bearings bolted upwards as you would expect. Bolted on top of that aluminum block are the cast iron cylinders and those are topped with cast iron heads. The crank is a flat plane design with fork and blade connecting rods and the valve arrangement is similar to the Northway design. 
 

The Viking 260 CID V8 is a monobloc cast iron block (first monobloc V8 to my knowledge) with cast iron heads. It utilizes a horizontal valve arrangement (parallel with the ground) and has a cross plane crankshaft with 3 main bearings and conventional connecting rods. With a 3.625 in stroke, it has a much shorter stroke than its predecessors. We got the Viking at the RE Olds Museum running a few months ago for the first time and I must say it is a sweet running and sounding engine.

 

Scott

Edited November 24, 2021 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

7 hours ago, Stude Light said:

I know this is an older post but I’ll reply to this question.

 

The Olds Northway 246 CID cast iron V8 is a two piece block split down the center with the two main bearings bolted sideways into left side. It uses a flat plane crankshaft with fork and blade connecting rods and has cast iron heads. The valves are in block and pretty much parallel to the pistons.

 

The Olds designed aluminum block 233CID V8 is a single cast aluminum lower block with two main bearings bolted upwards as you would expect. Bolted on top of that aluminum block are the cast iron cylinders and those are topped with cast iron heads. The crank is a flat plane design with floral and blade connecting rods and the valve arrangement is similar to the Northway design. 
 

The Viking 260 CID V8 is a monobloc cast iron block (first monobloc V8 to my knowledge) with cast iron heads. It utilizes a horizontal valve arrangement (parallel with the ground) and has a cross plane crankshaft with 3 main bearings and conventional connecting rods. With a 3.625 in stroke, it has a much shorter stroke than its predecessors. We got the Viking at the RE Olds Museum running a few months ago for the first time and I must say it is a sweet running and sounding engine.

 

Scott

Scott:

 

Thanks for the thorough description of how each engine differs from the others.   Both the Viking and Oakland/Pontiac mono-block V8 engines were a major advancement in V8 engine development technology.    

 

Regarding Sloan's model decisions, early in his term he had a massive job to sort out the mess left in Durant's wake.   It was a morass of overlapping models in size and price in some segments of the market, others completely unserved by any model with the appropriate metrics.  This is where the 'Sloan Ladder' of "A Car for Every Purse and Purpose" came to be instituted.  It also encompassed the idea of the 'companion car' as an adjunct to existing makes, the first being Pontiac to the Oakland, second LaSalle to Cadillac.  Both proved to be immediately popular, their success encouraged Sloan to proceed with Viking for Oldsmobile and Marquette for Buick.  The latter two arrived just at the point where the industry was reaching saturation and the 'house-of-cards' economy on the verge of collapse.   

 

During that first decade Sloan was at the helm, GM hadn't yet developed and instituted dual make dealer organization we came to know later i.e. Chevrolet-Oldsmobile, Pontiac-Buick, Oldsmobile-Cadillac, and other combinations.  The latter two could include GMC since Chevrolet had its own truck.   The idea was to keep the customer in the 'fold' by stepping him up to the larger, more expensive make as his prosperity increased.    The 'companion car' in the 1920's fulfilled a similar purpose as they were priced below their established 'partner' make, except Viking which was more expensive than Oldsmobile.  Eventually, it was realized these companion makes also constituted internally-created competition to other GM models selling in the same price segment.  By then Viking and Marquette were gone, Pontiac displaced Oakland and LaSalle was poised to take a new role in the revival Cadillac as a profit center for the corporation.  LaSalle eventually outlived its usefulness, but demonstrated a way that Cadillac could live on successfully.

 

Make an astute observation...get a dissertation.

Steve