SC38dls Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 (edited) I prefer other activity in the rear (seat) of the Stude. Maybe I should drop the ‘e’ 😳 dave s Edited November 22, 2021 by SC38dls (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trulyvintage Posted November 21, 2021 Author Share Posted November 21, 2021 ^ Someone is drinking early on Sunday 🤔 ^ Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Trulyvintage said: ^ Someone is drinking early on Sunday 🤔 ^ Jim Jim......It’s NEVER too early! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 I guess I can say I now have in my possession definitive proof of my White’s 1915 production date beyond the casting date on the car. I can prove similar cars on the 30 hp chassis with IDENTICAL substantial components. Using factory photographs. Evidence includes identical dash, fuel, lighting, body, mechanical and other items. I’m confident I can end any fair discussion with documentation and photos. Also includes another 1915 White 16 valve four. Next step is to get the title and get it registered. Not an easy process, with a three digit VIN, but we now have a plan in place. I will post all the evidence here in a few weeks.......it’s so busy at shop I don’t have time to scan and list everything. Phil wants to try and take it to the Howey in the Hills HCCA meet in February so we will register for it tomorrow. Look for it there. As always, AACA forum members are invited to go for a ride, and drive it if qualified. I just hope the clutch will hold together for the tour........we just don’t have enough time to get it done before the event. I don’t like short cuts, but it’s impossible to get the project across the finish line with everything going on.......pride of ownership means I usually would never take a car out until it’s sorted........but family issues with Phil and myself means not enough time. It will be at the National meet. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 Here is a 1915 white 30 hp roadster. The chassis is identical to my 15, and notice the front headlights which are also identical.......the headlights came three ways from 1915 to 1918, but by 1917 had gone only to this configuration. I have known of a 16 valve 4 truck that is in the midwest. It was thought to be put together. There has never been any proof that White installed the 16 valve engine in anything but cars.....until today. I found factory photos and literature, as well as a parts book for a 1919 truck. The first proof of them being used as a commercial application. I think now I can honestly say I have my head around ALL White cars and trucks built from 1914 to 1919.....and am confidant that I understand all the platforms, and what I am looking at. It only took 14 months! The most difficult process I have ever attempted in the car world to get a total grasp on any marque..........soon..........I think it will be steam...... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 Wonderful stuff! Ten spoke wheels on the White roadster? Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 Wayne......the company was so crazy with what they did. Although they clearly offered a 1916 30hp car there are no surviving photos or examples of the cars. I think much of what they did was while supplies were available. In 16 we see lots of 45hp cars, one or two 6-60’s and most 6-60’s were fire trucks or fire equipment. The only certain thing on a White gas powered car is I haven’t see two identical cars yet.......and probably never will. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 Great stuff! Thank you Ed M, as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prewarnut Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 7 hours ago, edinmass said: Here is a 1915 white 30 hp roadster. The chassis is identical to my 15, and notice the front headlights which are also identical.......the headlights came three ways from 1915 to 1918, but by 1917 had gone only to this configuration. I have known of a 16 valve 4 truck that is in the midwest. It was thought to be put together. There has never been any proof that White installed the 16 valve engine in anything but cars.....until today. I found factory photos and literature, as well as a parts book for a 1919 truck. The first proof of them being used as a commercial application. I think now I can honestly say I have my head around ALL White cars and trucks built from 1914 to 1919.....and am confidant that I understand all the platforms, and what I am looking at. It only took 14 months! The most difficult process I have ever attempted in the car world to get a total grasp on any marque..........soon..........I think it will be steam...... Ed, It's been 20+ years since I lived in Cleveland. I have a bit of a photographic memory. I believe the background is Fairmount Blvd in Cleveland Heights when it had a trolley line. I think I recognize the house on the south side of the street (image facing somewhat south). Perhaps Matt can comment if he's up for a field trip. The trolley was in place for the dates of the company and car so won't refute any dates. Interestingly I wonder if White's engineering of large bore engines stems from the east suburbs being positioned quite high off cliffs. On the other hands how's the braking technology? -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 It's great you recognize the location. Look close at the photo, the rear spare tire is missing........unusual for a staged factory photo....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 Ed, I think you are enjoying the research as much as the actual cars! Now... when is the book coming out? (LOL) Again, thank you for sharing! 17 hours ago, edinmass said: Jim......It’s NEVER too early! As my late Uncle Bill who spent a significant portion of his life at sea use to say... "somewhere in the world the sun is over the yardarm." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 My pile of relevant research must be six inches tall and weigh in at four pounds. While it will never be finished, we are approaching the end of the main journey. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 Would you please stop saying we are approaching the end to a bunch of old guys dammit. dave s 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LI_BENTLEY Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 Ed, your c as d does not have a VIN they came on board in 1982, you should have a 5 digit s/n which was painted on the frame and stamped into a brass data plate attached to the passenger side of the firewall . also there was a car number painted somewhere on the car in an out of the way place which is the consecutive number of that body type in that series. The last number for that car is the motor no. which as starts with 2 or 3 letters ," GA" "GF' " GM" and so forth. It was stamped into othe left engine support and is probably the only number you can find. If you can find th s/n I can can tell you the year and month it was made. White made the motors in advance and just put them into cars/ trucks as needed without keeping them in consecutive order. Good luck with your title, here in NY there would no problem as we do not use titles with any vehicles before 1972. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 (edited) This car appears to be a one off custom body, there are no firewall numbers stamped in the usual place for a white, and no brass tag anywhere, and no signs of it having one. The other 1915 16 valve car is the same way. The town car is supposed to have belonged to the White family when new. Not sure how solid that story is. The only numbers we have on the car is the engine casting date and engine number. It’s 100 percent 1915 30hp chassis and platform. The transmission is similar to my 17 but still different. When I get a chance I will compile all the photos, dealer information, and other observations for everyone to see them. It’s just too dam busy right now in the shop. Sometime after the first of the year I will find the time. We are getting ready to title and register it soon..........and get the date to 1915. We shall see how that goes....... Edited December 31, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanleyRegister Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Here's some more dated trade publications on the introduction of the 16-valve engine, being White's first unit power plant, unrelated to previous engines. This must have been close to the peak of engineering development for the T-head architecture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Stanley I have a copy of that in my pile of paperwork that I found while researching my car. Thanks for posting it. I probably have ten or twelve similar announcements in trade publications from October of 16 to February of 17 announcing similar ideas. After having put in so much time, I have come to the conclusion that for a bunch of reasons they didn’t want to build a six after the one they sold from 1913-1916. When you consider the price class they were selling in.........no matter how “special” you four is, it simply just won’t cut it in the world of six, eight, and twelves. Essentially, the war and unlimited truck sales at huge profits distracted them from car production. Their focus changed, and by mid 1916 they were committed to building the 16 valve and selling it. It’s a fantastic and interesting engine. Powerful, modern in every respect, easy to service. But it was outdated from the day it went into production. I’m guessing the 16 valve was doomed from the start, and just built to keep the dealer network intact. They probably lost half of them when they became a truck only company. Certainly a four was the industry standard till the very late 20’s for most all trucks. So the 16 valve White was caught in a corporate, as well as a wartime production pinch. It’s an oddball of automotive history. Which is why I enjoy it so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 Sorry for the long delay.........lots going on down south. Most importantly, my trusty and reliable side kick, “Phil with the hands like George the Animal Steel” has been dealing with difficult family issues...........thus we placed all White projects on hold. His wonderful bride of fifty plus years has been dealing with extremely difficult medical issues........and for twelve days things haven’t been very positive.........she need all possible thoughts and prayers...........We will pick up this thread after the first of the year when with positive blessings he will have time in his life for the mundane and unimportant car hobby..........family and friends always come first.......... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 Ed, Phil and especially his bride will be in our thoughts and prayers. Let us all know how they are doing if you can and feel it’s appropriate. dave s 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert G. Smits Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 I was just getting ready to post a similar message. I am sure all of us will be praying for Phil and his wife. When you are 81 years old you start to realize that you could be in this situation tomorrow. In all my years following this forum the "White Story" has been my favorite. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 (edited) I am saddened to hear of Phil "with the hands like George the animal steel" and his missus' current health problems. He and she will occupy a place in our thoughts and prayers for some time now. Whatever the current medical issues, I hope recent strides will help resolve her situation for a positive and long future for them both! Edited December 9, 2021 by wayne sheldon I hate leaving typos! (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 On 11/23/2021 at 12:24 PM, LI_BENTLEY said: Ed, your c as d does not have a VIN they came on board in 1982, you should have a 5 digit s/n which was painted on the frame and stamped into a brass data plate attached to the passenger side of the firewall . also there was a car number painted somewhere on the car in an out of the way place which is the consecutive number of that body type in that series. The last number for that car is the motor no. which as starts with 2 or 3 letters ," GA" "GF' " GM" and so forth. It was stamped into othe left engine support and is probably the only number you can find. If you can find th s/n I can can tell you the year and month it was made. White made the motors in advance and just put them into cars/ trucks as needed without keeping them in consecutive order. Good luck with your title, here in NY there would no problem as we do not use titles with any vehicles before 1972. Many states used engine numbers instead of serial numbers when vehicles were first starting to be registered until the mid-1950's. Some comments on that here: https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/forum/your-studebaker-forum/general-studebaker-specific-discussion/1913185-1937-hidden-serial-number Incidently, the term 'Vehicle Identification Number' for a serial number plate goes back until the mid-sixties, at least: https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/forum/your-studebaker-forum/general-studebaker-specific-discussion/87295-vin-vs-serial-number-and-build-sheet-vs-production-order-what-s-the-deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 I think the only certain thing about states and numbers is that every one did something different. I have seen cars titled by engine number, chassis number, body number.......and in a handful of cases the casting numbers on the block.......... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Fan Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 Do you need a third? https://www.goodingco.com/lot/1913-white-model-30-gad-roadster/?filtersInput[auctionType][0]=Online Only&filtersInput[auctionYear][0]=2022&filtersInput[onlineAuctionName][0]=1643040000000_Geared Online Scottsdale Edition&sortBy=DEFAULT&pageNumber=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trulyvintage Posted December 30, 2021 Author Share Posted December 30, 2021 No Details - Only Three Images Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 (edited) Nice car, it was on the field at Pebble this year. Spoke with the owner. This is a “typical” small White........which is very well made and a decent driver......but cars under fifty horsepower I have no interest in collecting or owning. I’m a big car snob........ Edited December 30, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 48 minutes ago, edinmass said: Nice car, it was on the field at Pebble this year. Spoke with the owner. This is a “typical” small White........which is very well made and a decent driver......but cars under fifty horsepower I have no interest in collecting or owning. I’m a big car snob........ Ed, does the word "big" modify "car" or "snob"? 🙂 If you don't like under 50 hp, you probably wouldn't like my 1918 Pierce 48 dual valve (121 bhp per factory Engineering Cmte report) because it's 2 hp short.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 The auction estimate on the White roadster is 150k-170k............I will watch the sale with intrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 I think it's a nice little car but that sounds terribly optimistic to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trulyvintage Posted December 31, 2021 Author Share Posted December 31, 2021 Unless you see the 1915 White in person - hear it run - take a drive in it - get to know the story of ownership …. You cannot fully appreciate how magnificent this car truly is …. It is the only vehicle I have ever had a “ conversation “ with: @ Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 1 hour ago, JV Puleo said: I think it's a nice little car but that sounds terribly optimistic to me. Wouldn’t break my heart if it sold above the high estimate! I think you can remove the 1 in front of the rang and still be on the high side...........it’s a wonderful little roadster.......30hp just doesn’t make those numbers happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 That's exactly what I thought. It looks like a typo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 So I was right in the ballpark and didn’t know it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 8 hours ago, edinmass said: So I was right in the ballpark and didn’t know it. REALLY! Something you did not KNOW. LOL. Welcome to the club.😜 Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 It’s kind of funny........I must have had a dozen inquiries about the early roadster coming up for sale. Probably because I’m the only guy on the planet that own two White gas cars.......... I did get a chance to give the car a close look over at Pebble. It’s very nice. It was in the preservation class. I’ve never been able to figure out if that meant it was a preservation of a restoration, or a preservation of an original car. My gut tells me the car was extensively serviced in the very early days of the hobby. It finished the tour......if my memory serves me. It’s a great car........and for it size on the flats probably is in the top for speed.....I would expect on the hills you just jump out and push it over the top. 30 hp cars are fun if your running with like sized and dated machines. If I lived up north again it would be a fun weekend runner. The last sale was strong.....and I’m certain they put money in it also. Question is......how much money can a 30 hp roadster bring. It’s pretty, has nice lines, so the only question is........what number will it bring? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 The car checks all the boxes today. The "Survivor Cars" are and have been hot for years, its BRASS and its a ROADSTER. It should break 100K in a overdrive. Just my opinion....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, mikewest said: The car checks all the boxes today. The "Survivor Cars" are and have been hot for years, its BRASS and its a ROADSTER. It should break 100K in a overdrive. Just my opinion....... “survivor cars” or old, shitty restoration? 🤔 Problem is, it’s almost impossible to tell today. One can have suspicions...........the car has nice eyeball, and is certainly a fun toy. It today’s market I don’t see 30hp cars bringing that money...........don’t get me wrong........ no one has more game than me if it hits it out of the park. Edited January 2, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 I had a 1911 REO at one time. It was totally unrestored but still functional and, in fact, I drove it a few times. I thought it had the original paint. It certainly looked like it did but through an amazing set of circumstances I was able to find the gentleman who owned it in the late 1930s. He told me he'd painted the car around 1938...in fact, he and his brother had driven it from Long Island to Cleveland for the National Air Races in 1939. You just can't tell if it was done long enough ago and I'm not sure it would make any difference to me. Applying the same standards to a pre-WWI car regarding "originality" that you would apply to a 1968 "whatever" is simply idiotic. The finishes, relying on varnish, were quite fragile and deteriorated rapidly. Many of the big cars like RR, Pierce etc. were repainted regularly just to keep them new looking...how do you tell if a 1912 car was repainted in 1914? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 Hopefully things will pick up soon........Phil and I have had a bunch of family issues keeping us busy. I’m still trying to get over the COVID ..............it wasn’t pleasant. Phil managed a few small things on the 15 White and took it for a spin yesterday with the grandchildren. A few more weeks and we will get back to speed...... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trulyvintage Posted January 10, 2022 Author Share Posted January 10, 2022 Phil shared a post on my Facebook timeline today that included these images 😎 Jim 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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