Mounting tires

[Ken_P]

First of all, forgive my ignorance... I've mounted modern tires on wheels with a machine, but not something pre-war...

 

I have a 1937 Packard. Just bought new tires (7.00-16), tubes, and flaps. Stock wheels. My local AACA chapter recommended several places that could mount the tires, and so far, zero of them are interested in accepting my money for services rendered.

 

- Are these tires spooned on? (meaning no safety bead on the wheel, right?)

- If that answer is yes, I'll just figure it out and do it myself!

 

Any tips or tricks? I've done a million bicycle tires, and a few dirt bike tires, but nothing automotive. Following the pre-war tire tool thread already. Thanks!

 

Edit:

Found these links: 

So those seem to help. Still looking for any pointers

Edited March 29, 2021 by Ken_P (see edit history)

[F&J]

Can't get a tire shop to do a tube tire replacement on a simple drop center steel wheel.....what has the world come to. 

 

If you have run a tire machine before on steel wheels back in the rear wheel drive car era, then you know how to get the tire on and off, so you just need to learn tube type. Meaning install the tube after one bead is on the rim, then learn how NOT to pinch the tube when spooning on the last bead.  I inflate the tube very slightly before doing the last bead.

 

Then inflate enough to properly seat the well-soaped beads, then let ALL air out to prevent the tube from having any folds. Talc is needed unless the tubes or tires already have it applied..... some do, some don't.

 

Breaking the old tire beads loose at home should not be too hard with those rims having no bead locks.  Put up a pic of the outer rim and somebody will tell you if it has bead lock rims, but I doubt it had them in 37.  Some use an old bumper jack that has the square base. 

 

 

[joe_padavano]

While I do my own, if you want to have a shop do them, find a place that does ag tires.

[leomara]

Interesting topic, I just called Universal Vintage Tire Co. Hershey PA about buying 5 tires for my 1928 Chrysler 600/650 - 18.  The negotiations went well until I asked about mounting the tires on split ring/locking ring wheels.  Sorry no can do was the answer.  Now do these people expect someone to spend over 1000 dollars for tires, tubes and flaps and have to personally mount them or take them someplace else to have it done?  Really?  I live in New Jersey, can someone recommend a tire business within a reasonable drive which will not only sell me the tires I require but also do the unthinkable and mount them for me?

Edited March 29, 2021 by leomara (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Heavy truck service centers will still do lock ring wheels and tires with tubes. Some, anyway. Many heavy trucks still use them. Look for a "widowmaker" cage in their service area--if you see one, you'll know they're familiar with the job.

 

 

For Ken, the OP, a '37 Packard should have regular drop center steel wheels or equivalent, no lock rings or other special considerations, so it shouldn't take anything special to mount them. Tire chain stores won't be interested, but if you have an independent tire shop nearby or again, a heavy truck service shop, they should be able to handle it no problem. You may not even need tubes, depending on the design of the wheel. I don't know when they went to welded wheels instead of riveted, but by '37, I think you can probably get away with mounting the tire without a tube. Can you show us a photo of the inside of the wheel rim and how the center is attached? If there are no places for leaks, you can safely skip the tubes (and I would argue that going tubeless is safer).

 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Ken_P]

Thanks @Matt Harwood - the center sections are riveted on. I can post a picture later today, but not sure they would be air tight.

 

No problem running tubeless on the old school bias plys?

[alsancle]

Here is another recent active thread on prewar tire changing.

 

Here is a picture of my newly created toolk kit for changing snap ring tires.

[F&J]

20 minutes ago, Ken_P said:

 

No problem running tubeless on the old school bias plys?

You must look at the tire for wording as to if it is a tubeless or tube type tire.  That relates only to the tire itself.  If it's marked tube type, you must use a tube because the inner layer of rubber can allow air into the cords and cause a growing bubble.

 

If it is marked tubeless, then the tire is fully sealed.  Then put Flex Seal over the rim rivets after cleaning them good.

 

If the tire is not marked at all about tube vs tubeless, go back to the ad where you bought the tires before trying to go tubeless.

 

put up a pic of the outer rim so we can see if they are bead lock style.  Some here don't know what we are talking about:  A beadlock on a stamped steel car rim is just a shallow groove pressed into the rim, and it does 2 things: it keeps the tire bead from unseating if the tire was nearly flat, or went flat before you can stop the car. It also forces the bead to be perfectly centered on the rim hoop.

 

In rare cases, some defective repro tires don't center themselves perfectly on the rims without beadlocks.  Just look at both sides of the tire right at the rim edge to make sure they look centered after airing up.

 

On the older non-bead lock rims, these were used with tubes in most cases, but VW still had not added beadlocks to the early 60s bugs and some were tubeless tires. 

 

 BTW, a beadlock rim is the one that makes a very loud POP when finally getting the bead to seat with lots of pressure.  It often takes way more pressure to get them to finally seat, than what the tire pressure calls for.

 

 

[Ken_P]

Thanks! The new tires are tube-type, so I’ll run the tubes I bought.
 

I think the wheels are beadlock.

[bryankazmer]

awful lot of lead on there

[Ken_P]

It's how I got the car. Seems to drive fine.

[F&J]

1 hour ago, Ken_P said:

I think the wheels are beadlock.

No, I don't see any signs of that, so it should not be  too much work to unseat the beads.   There is no worry in running non beadlocks at any road speed, in case you wondered.

[Ken_P]

Ok, well I got the tires off. Remembered the Navy has auto hobby shops. I used their tire machine and dismounted five tires (spare too) in about 30 minutes. Now I’ll clean up the wheels, ospho and paint the backsides, and probably clear the original paint on the face.

 

Interesting -there were no tube flaps. Are they not required on drop center steel wheels?

Edited March 29, 2021 by Ken_P (see edit history)

[Oldtech]

No flaps. They are only needed on split rims or some trucks. Mounting tires is often a do-it-yourself operation for us old car types. 

Some Modern tire shops don't like the idea. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Oldtech (see edit history)

[F&J]

12 minutes ago, Ken_P said:

Interesting -there were no tube flaps. Are they not required on drop center steel wheels?

There are flaps and there are rim liners.   A flap is very wide and tapered at edges; it fits into the tire, and mostly used on older big trucks with true lock ring wheels like Oldtech said just now. 

 

Then wire wheels from the late 1920s to mid 30s used the rim liner which is just a thinner 2" wide rubber band that stretches/fits into the drop center of the rim to cover the spoke nipples so they don't chafe the tube.

 

Here are 2 pics of bead locks on a 70s-80s 8 lug pickup wheel.  Some beadlock bumps are more pronounced.  It just forms a valley for the tire bead to stay locked into:

 

[Mark Shaw]

I am surprised nobody mentioned to set the tires out in the sun to warm up before installation. 

Corn starch works great if you are allergic to the perfume in talcum powder.

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, Mark Shaw said:

I am surprised nobody mentioned to set the tires out in the sun to warm up before installation. 

Corn starch works great if you are allergic to the perfume in talcum powder.

 

 

 

I talked to Ed about that and he mentioned warming up both the new and old tire in the sun prior to messing with them.   It is starting to get warm here and my bed cover is black so putting them back there for a few hours should soften things up a bit.

[Ken_P]

Thanks for all the thoughts!

 

Any reason not to use a tire machine to mount the new tires, since I have access to one? I'll be doing the work myself, so I'll be able to control everything.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Ken_P (see edit history)

[F&J]

I use my 1950s manual machine that has a manual long bar so you can go really slow, or stop, when putting the last bead on without grabbing the tube.

 

If your modern machine is not too fast, it should go well. 

[Oldtech]

I do it all the time. Just be careful and make sure the tube is out of the way .

[alsancle]

So I spent 1/2 an hour today prepping for the tire change.  Most of that was taping up the rim - painters tape first then gorilla tape on top and carefully sliced along the age with a razor blade.    Most of this is advice I got from Ed mixed in with my real experience changing my first snap ring tire.    Actually changing the tire took exactly 1 hour.  Most of that was getting the old tire off.

 

 

1.  Remove all stickers from the new tire,  inside and out.   Any minor piece of anything on the inside of the tire will cause problems for the tube.

 

2. Prep the wheel with painters tape first then gorilla tape on top and carefully sliced along the age with a razor blade.

 

3.  Remove the tube stem insert and let all the air out.    Ed says you can break the bead by hand,  I had to use a machine.  I jumped up and down on it for 30 minutes and got nowhere.    Even with the machine,  I had to let some tire lube seep in to along the rim to finally get it to break free.

 

4. The snap ring came off fairly easily.   Start prying with a larger bar carefully at the notch and use a thin spoon to work your way down.  6 inches in it popped off.

 

5. Use talcum powder inside the new tire.   I had to cut the tire flap because it was too big - see picture.

 

6.  Partially inflate the tube before mounting to get it sorted out inside the tire.   Then deflate.

 

6.  Rub tire lube around both side of the edge of the tire prior to sliding it on to the rim.    I need a heavy rubber hammer to get the tire on.

 

7.  The snap ring went on easier than it came off.

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

I don't know why I love the look of new tires so much. Nice!

[chistech]

I used the garbage bag technique on my 17” wheels and mounted all six tubed tires quite easily with tire irons.

[alsancle]

10 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I don't know why I love the look of new tires so much. Nice!

 

I hope you realize the black one is the new one!  Tread pattern is much more appropriate for a 1930s car. 

9 hours ago, chistech said:

I used the garbage bag technique on my 17” wheels and mounted all six tubed tires quite easily with tire irons.

 

What is the garbage back technique?   The mounting was easy,  but the old tires had been on the car for 40 years and would not come off easily.   I was ready to take a cutting wheel to them.

[F&J]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

What is the garbage back technique? 

The bag is used to make the tire beads slip over restored rim edges very easily without ruining the paint.  The wheel is placed in the bag.  This is on non-lockring wheels, and really also helps immensely when doing the ancient clincher tires/rims that seem like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.  Anyways, after the tire is on, you then pull the bag out in pieces before inflating. I hope to never own a clincher type car ever again, even after learning about the bag technique years after I did mine.

 

A member here did a youtube video on it for a Metz car with clinchers. I think he did it without tire irons. 

 

also bags are slipped over later model bucket seat backrests that have foam cores when trying to slip the new seat covers over. It really makes the job easier and you end up with less wrinkles.

[Oldtech]

Hmmm. I just mounted 5 clinchers for the Ol Mclaughlin. Didn,t know about the garbage bag idea. might have tried it.  Didn't have any problems though. Rims were powder coated so pretty tough.  2 of us did them all in 2 hrs.

     Re split rims or locking bead. Tire shops won't  usually do them any more . I don't have a cage so just loop a chain around through the center on 2 sides, then inflate carefully, checking the lock as we go. never had an issue. 

 

[Marty Roth]

On 3/29/2021 at 9:08 AM, Matt Harwood said:

Heavy truck service centers will still do lock ring wheels and tires with tubes. Some, anyway. Many heavy trucks still use them. Look for a "widowmaker" cage in their service area--if you see one, you'll know they're familiar with the job.

 

 

For Ken, the OP, a '37 Packard should have regular drop center steel wheels or equivalent, no lock rings or other special considerations, so it shouldn't take anything special to mount them. Tire chain stores won't be interested, but if you have an independent tire shop nearby or again, a heavy truck service shop, they should be able to handle it no problem. You may not even need tubes, depending on the design of the wheel. I don't know when they went to welded wheels instead of riveted, but by '37, I think you can probably get away with mounting the tire without a tube. Can you show us a photo of the inside of the wheel rim and how the center is attached? If there are no places for leaks, you can safely skip the tubes (and I would argue that going tubeless is safer).

 

 

 

Agree !!

 

I have done this for my cars, and also for others

Also, If using radial tires and tubes- be ABSOLUTELY sure that every paper tag inside every tire has been removed.

With the motion of a radial tire , the paper tag will cause abrasion and wear through the tube, in as much as 100 miles or less-

ask me how I know

[MHuppguy]

If you are running tubeless tires , wether bias ply or radial ply, on a rim designed for tube type tires you must use a tube!  and a radial tube if you are going to radial tires.  Do this in spite of the laws in some states the ban the use of tubes in tubeless tires. The radial tube is thicker than the bias ply tire tube and will  wear much longer.  The tube is essential because it will hold the tire bead in place on the tube type rim.  The bead lock is a safety ridge necessary to keep the tire from separating from the bead under hard cornering situations.  The shape of the bead for a tubeless tire is different than that of a tube type tire and may not remain seated on the wheel rim in some circumstances.  For old, non tubeless rims, always use a "gutter strip" to cover the rivets in the drop center.  I have learned this over the last 62 years in the auto repair business and teaching automotive Technology for 30 years, so these are not just my opinions.

[alsancle]

Here is another bit of advice.  Don't line up the snap ring break with the stem like some IDIOT did with the tire I changed today.   The bent stem refused to let the tire pull away from the rim enough to get the snap off.  45 minutes in I figured it out and cut the stem off.   5 minutes later the snap ring was off.

[edinmass]

Just something for thought..............

 

Virtually every tire guy working on a split ring, snap ring, clincher, ect...........has ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE about antique cars, has no clue about metal fatigue, has no clue on difficulty in replacement parts, ect. I can think of four or five shops that I would trust with my wheels. Today, I was doing tire work on my GMC crew cab tow vehicle. Last “good” shop that worked in it for me, that came with great recommendations........damaged my wheels, installed them incorrectly, over tightened the lugs, and didn’t properly apply never seize as I requested. I only spent 3k with them doing tires and some basic maintenance. I’m done with every shop I come across now.......I just do my own work. At least it’s done right, and I don’t have any middle of the night nightmares.....or a daytime driving disaster because 99 percent of all wheel and rim people today are fifth grade drop outs.........no craftsmanship, no pride in work, just shoddy service......and is it time to get high yet? 
 

it’s worth fifty dollars per tire minimum to do snap ring wheels............just from the labor standpoint. Then another fifty to cover liability issues. Simply put.......,you can’t pay enough money to most shops to justify the labor, exposure to damage to the rim, paint, or tire. Then the nightmare scenario of a failure of some tire/rim/tube and a resultant loss of life? You got to be nuts to service early car wheels today.

[alsancle]

12 minutes ago, edinmass said:

it’s worth fifty dollars per tire minimum to do snap ring wheels............just from the labor standpoint. Then another fifty to cover liability issues. Simply put.......,you can’t pay enough money to most shops to justify the labor, exposure to damage to the rim, paint, or tire. Then the nightmare scenario of a failure of some tire/rim/tube and a resultant loss of life? You got to be nuts to service early car wheels today.

 

We did two snap ring tires today.   One guy who had probably done 500 snap ring wheels in his lifetime and me.   It was a two man job.  I have the prep work down to around 15 minutes a wheel.   One wheel was 30 minutes the other wheel was 1 hour and it really needed two guys.  

 

If  this was a business there is no way I'm doing it for less than 250.00 a wheel.  It is a complete pain in the ass.

[edinmass]

Having a “show car” makes it ten times harder. Barn finds and forty year old restorations don’t show scratches and dings. New fresh paint on wheels that then need snap rings installed are true nightmares. Then having a ring snap or crack when the truck picking up the car is only a few hours out adds to the entertainment just before Pebble.. Snap ring and wheel failure has occurred on the last four tours I have been on. Not only old wheels.......entirely new wheels are suffering failures today. 2/3 of the problems is workmanship and lack of experience. 
 

 

These are new wheels, snap rings, and spokes. Less than two hundred miles to failure.

Edited April 8, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

3 hours ago, MHuppguy said:

If you are running tubeless tires , wether bias ply or radial ply, on a rim designed for tube type tires you must use a tube!  and a radial tube if you are going to radial tires.  Do this in spite of the laws in some states the ban the use of tubes in tubeless tires. The radial tube is thicker than the bias ply tire tube and will  wear much longer.  The tube is essential because it will hold the tire bead in place on the tube type rim.  The bead lock is a safety ridge necessary to keep the tire from separating from the bead under hard cornering situations.  The shape of the bead for a tubeless tire is different than that of a tube type tire and may not remain seated on the wheel rim in some circumstances.  For old, non tubeless rims, always use a "gutter strip" to cover the rivets in the drop center.  I have learned this over the last 62 years in the auto repair business and teaching automotive Technology for 30 years, so these are not just my opinions.

It's the air pressure inside the tire that holds the bead in place during cornering - doesn't really matter if there is a tube in there or not.  If your tire is at the proper pressure the bead will stay in place, regardless of having an older rim. I run Diamondback radials on my 1939 LaSalle with no tubes and it corners quite fine.  Now, if you want to argue that underinflated tires will start to unbead at high corner loading and all it takes is a little bit of unbeading to immediately deflate your tire without a tube, then I can buy in to your argument. I make it a point to check my inflation pressures often and, with radials, it's pretty easy to see the bulge at the tire patch when the pressure is low.  This is especially true with Diamondbacks which run at 45 psi so they look like a bias ply (no bulge) when at proper pressure. One other observation....my rims are riveted and I didn't seal over the rivet heads inside the rims and none of the 5 tires have leaks. If I did it again, I probably would seal them - I just hadn't thought about it at the time.  

[Stude Light]

54 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Just something for thought..............

 

Virtually every tire guy working on a split ring, snap ring, clincher, ect...........has ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE about antique cars, has no clue about metal fatigue, has no clue on difficulty in replacement parts, ect. I can think of four or five shops that I would trust with my wheels. Today, I was doing tire work on my GMC crew cab tow vehicle. Last “good” shop that worked in it for me, that came with great recommendations........damaged my wheels, installed them incorrectly, over tightened the lugs, and didn’t properly apply never seize as I requested. I only spent 3k with them doing tires and some basic maintenance. I’m done with every shop I come across now.......I just do my own work. At least it’s done right, and I don’t have any middle of the night nightmares.....or a daytime driving disaster because 99 percent of all wheel and rim people today are fifth grade drop outs.........no craftsmanship, no pride in work, just shoddy service......and is it time to get high yet? 
 

it’s worth fifty dollars per tire minimum to do snap ring wheels............just from the labor standpoint. Then another fifty to cover liability issues. Simply put.......,you can’t pay enough money to most shops to justify the labor, exposure to damage to the rim, paint, or tire. Then the nightmare scenario of a failure of some tire/rim/tube and a resultant loss of life? You got to be nuts to service early car wheels today.

I couldn't agree more.  I just installed a new set of tires on my 1968 Pontiac Tempest. I had to order the tires since no one seems to carry 205/70R14s with a 3/4" whitewall. I took it to the "best" place around me.  They're basically modern tires- how hard could it be? I specifically mentioned the valve stem length and make sure they are correct so they stick through the wheel cover - no, they screwed that up.  I specifically discussed protecting my 3/4" whitewalls - tore one of those. No pride in work - just get it out the door.

 

When I restored my 1923 Studebaker, I did all the work on the disc wheels, tires, tubes, flaps, 90 degree valve stems, split rims because I had all the tools - basically a small pry bar.  It took a while but if you don't rush, it is pretty simple, although you do need to go through great pains to protect the wheels from getting scratched and black paint will show every flaw.  I just took a few precautions when first filling them up. I've had no issues with those at all.

[alsancle]

8 hours ago, edinmass said:

These are new wheels, snap rings, and spokes. Less than two hundred miles to failure.

 

 

Probably any other car and that snap ring would have never been put to the test like it was on that Duesenberg.   The problem with a Duesenberg is that it will end up on the Duesenberg tour and get pushed hard.      Are you sure that was a new ring,  or a rechromed old ring?

 

[Ken_P]

Wow- all these horror stories makes me glad that:

 

1. My car has drop center steel wheels 

2. Original paint on said wheels

3. I have access to a tire machine!

[edinmass]

On 4/8/2021 at 6:15 AM, alsancle said:

 

Probably any other car and that snap ring would have never been put to the test like it was on that Duesenberg.   The problem with a Duesenberg is that it will end up on the Duesenberg tour and get pushed hard.      Are you sure that was a new ring,  or a rechromed old ring?

 

 

New rim, new ring, new spokes, factory hub.

[Ken_P]

Well, tires mounted and installed. Washed the blue stuff off, went for a drive. Now little black streaks are flinging out radially from the bead. Hope that goes away soon. Photo pre-streaks

[Akstraw]

On 4/5/2021 at 10:34 PM, chistech said:

I used the garbage bag technique on my 17” wheels and mounted all six tubed tires quite easily with tire irons.

I used garbage bags to install six new tires on freshly painted snap ring wheels on my 1930 Franklin.  I did all six by myself in about two hours without a single scratch on the fresh paint.  Highly recommend the method.

[edinmass]

It’s always best to get the blue off before mounting. Car looks very good. 👍