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On 1/18/2020 at 9:35 PM, zepher said:

 

The Pierce Arrow Society is the best group of folks I have ever met.

I have yet to have a bad experience with anyone associated with the PAS.

There have been plenty of instances where PAS members have offered up parts freely at meets when there were issues with another member's car.

And then there are the regular threads on the PAS website where members eagerly offer up parts they have been hoarding for years to help another member get on the road.

 

And then I have experienced model specific clubs where members have been rather offstandish and rude to other members.

 

The PAS is so awesome that I've decided that I should own a Pierce just so I can hang out with them more often.

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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

The PAS is so awesome that I've decided that I should own a Pierce just so I can hang out with them more often.

Yes you should!  I've been fooling with antique cars since 1964, and I've never been involved with a better group.  Bought my first Pierce in 1976 and never looked back, have owned about a dozen Pierce's, but the true prizes are the friendships that have been made through the Pierce Arrow Society.

 

Guess we are a little snobbish, since we have a SOCIETY and not a Club!  Join us and you'll meet the greatest group of people, the only other club that comes close is the Franklin club, but that's more like a family than a club!

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56 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

The PAS is so awesome that I've decided that I should own a Pierce just so I can hang out with them more often.

 

If you wanted to get into the 'Big Boy' Classics, as they are often called, getting into a Pierce would cost you less than pretty much any of the others.

I have no idea why Pierce Arrows are priced so much lower than other big Classics on the open market but the workmanship and quality of the cars truly stands above just about every other pre-war car ever produced, no matter the marque or production numbers.

 

Have you ever driven a properly sorted Pierce Arrow?

Once you do, you will definitely get the bug to own one.

 

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22 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Yes you should!  I've been fooling with antique cars since 1964, and I've never been involved with a better group.  Bought my first Pierce in 1976 and never looked back, have owned about a dozen Pierce's, but the true prizes are the friendships that have been made through the Pierce Arrow Society.

 

Guess we are a little snobbish, since we have a SOCIETY and not a Club!  Join us and you'll meet the greatest group of people, the only other club that comes close is the Franklin club, but that's more like a family than a club!

 

One of my uncles has been a member of the HH Franklin club for decades and he always talks about how great the members are.

He's had similar experiences as I've had in the PAS with members offering up parts they've had for years and trading parts straight across oftentimes coming up short on the trade.

 

Almost makes me want to add a Franklin to my bunch just for the great club support!

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Having moved twice in the last three years to new areas of the country, where I had to introduce myself to new car clubs, I can't emphasize enough the importance of being super welcoming to new members.   Showing up at a gathering when you don't know anyone can be intimidating.  Everyone else seems to have known each other for decades, and it can feel like crashing a family reunion to show up without knowing anyone.  Following our most recent move, we were welcomed incredibly warmly by both the local CCCA region and the local Packard Club.  They both made clear that they were happy to have us, and it made all the difference. 

 

Things to do to welcome new members might include: 

 

1) When you receive a new membership form, don't just process it -- call them!  Call the new member and introduce yourself, explain how the club works, mention any upcoming events, and ask if they have any particular needs or interests.   That way the new member knows at least one person right off the bat. 

 

2) Offer a discounted or complimentary cost for any new member's first event.  This is a nice gesture: When a member shows up at his first event, make the event complimentary (or discounted) for the new member.  It makes the new person feel welcome. 

 

3) Offer the new member an opportunity to introduce himself to others.  Maybe invite the new member to write something about his interests and/or car(s) for the newsletter.  Or just make a point of introducing the new member at the first event, perhaps giving him/her a chance to speak and talk about his car or interests. 

 

These little things can make a big difference.

 

Edited by 1935Packard (see edit history)
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33 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Go to a CCCA show and you will understand what a Full Classic actually is. That being said I do not understand why a '47 Cadillac is a Full Classic while a '46-'48 Chrysler T&C is not.

 

 

I just realized that after 59 years in the hobby I've never been to a CCCA event, worked on many, gone to Pebble Beach three times, but never a CCCA event, is the general public allowed? Bob 

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1 minute ago, 1937hd45 said:

 

 

I just realized that after 59 years in the hobby I've never been to a CCCA event, worked on many, gone to Pebble Beach three times, but never a CCCA event, is the general public allowed? Bob 

 

Typically, no. It depends on the event, of course, but the CCCA rules say the Grand Classics are club members only. Hard to pull that off and onlookers are often present, but the club discourages it. It's a problem and I disagree with it in a big way. Fortunately, in practice I see more and more events that do welcome spectators, or, at least, don't make them feel UNwelcome.

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Just now, Matt Harwood said:

 

Typically, no. It depends on the event, of course, but the CCCA rules say the Grand Classics are club members only. Hard to pull that off and onlookers are often present, but the club discourages it. It's a problem and I disagree with it in a big way. Fortunately, in practice I see more and more events that do welcome spectators, or, at least, don't make them feel UNwelcome.

 

 

Thanks Matt, I'll stick with Pebble Beach. Bob 

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1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

Go to a CCCA show and you will understand what a Full Classic actually is. That being said I do not understand why a '47 Cadillac is a Full Classic while a '46-'48 Chrysler T&C is not.

 

Without getting in to the post  WWII holy war of allowing production cars,  the T&C was let in a few years ago and it created a fire storm.

Edited by alsancle (see edit history)
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My experience with CCCA was mostly positive but there are a few snobbish individuals and everyone recognizes it.  I let my membership expire when I moved to central Texas 11 years ago and discovered that Houston (4 Million) couldn't support a club and the Dallas club was inactive.  Lets not forget that there are a few similar individuals in AACA and other clubs.  During AACA judging in Dallas years ago I overheard a member of the judging team state, "We have to find a deduction on this car, He scored 100 points last week in CCCA". That in no way reflected on the whole of AACA. We should all remember the suggestions about welcoming new members.  My wife and I were at the opening event for the Texas tour last year and each club's members were sitting together and no one was welcoming newcomers in spite of 30% being on their first tour.  A suggestion would be for the host club to have a member couple at each table for sit down events.  Just my rambling thoughts

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1 hour ago, Robert G. Smits said:

My wife and I were at the opening event for the Texas tour last year and each club's members were sitting together and no one was welcoming newcomers in spite of 30% being on their first tour.  A suggestion would be for the host club to have a member couple at each table for sit down events. 

A number of years ago the Kiwanis club of which I was president was celebrating it's 35 anniversary.  Similar discussion, visiting clubs ALWAYS sat together, our club members ALWAYS sat together.  I had the support of several founding members of our local club so I ran the seating MY way.  We had 35 members and had 35 tables of 10.  Each member of our club and spouse was assigned a specific table at which they were hosts.  As our out of town guests arrived they were seated one couple per table.  Everyone at each table had a nodding acquaintance with each other at the start and most were friends at the end.  There is no drinking at a Kiwanis event, the District Governor opened the meeting and sixty seconds later I moved adjournment, the celebration had started.

Everyone said they had a good time.  This way of seating members and guest has been halfheartedly tried but never been successful in the last 30+ years.

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I've never had the opportunity to attend an AACA judging event and suspect that I never will. CCCA has a strong presence in the NW, as does the HCCA, but AACA is a no show. Anyone care to comment on Robert's comment regarding the AACA judging team comment. I've never seen anything from a CCCA judge indicating competition with AACA judging.

 

 One funny thing did happen to me during a CCCA judging that I'll share. It was about ten years ago at a board of directors meeting. To backtrack a bit, for over a decade, throughout much the 70's and into the 80's I had searched for a 1931 Studebaker Four Season Roadster, that I could afford. Sometime about 1980 the President was afforded CCCA Classic status. Most people would be thrilled to have their dream car vetted like this, I on the other hand was PO'd. What this meant to me was that now the car would shoot up in value. Classic cars were a rapidly appreciating commodity throughout the 70's and 80's and now I was afraid that I would have to compete with people that previously might not have been able to spell Studebaker. I had been looking for a driver, but finally found an unrestored car that someone had began work on, but who was ready to given up on the project. I bit hard and went for it.

 

On first blush I was going to just make the car a driver. I put the car in the Murray brother's shop and we began work. During the early stages of the restoration, people began to come around. Some of the people I knew but others were strangers. I kept getting comments like "that's a Studebaker, I had no idea!" There were a lot of people didn't understand the car, but who were already getting on the bandwagon. I began the realize that with this build I had the opportunity to open some eyes and make a difference with some people, that some here might call snobs, but who I thought just needed a dose of reality.

 

The build came out great and the response over the last thirty years has even better then I ever could have expected. I love the fact that people from all over the world have come to know the car, but still have no clue as to who I am, and that's the way it should be. I am proud of what the car has been able to accomplish.

 

So what does this have to do with a judging event ten years ago? In those days I was working nights and the judging was twenty miles away from my home. When I got to the even the judges were already waiting. They wanted to judge it first. I found out later that the car had become a crowd favorite. All humility aside, it was gratifying, but it was not totally unexpected. Now on it's last step before becoming a "Senior Emeritus" retiree, I was comfortable with how the car would be accepted. As the team moved around the car, I just stayed out of the way. Then I heard a new member of the team talking to his mentor. He asked very pointedly, "why is this car here"? As the mentor tried to explain the association with Pierce Arrow, something he seemed to understand, all I could do was smile. It just made me realize that no matter how far we had come, there was still work to be done.  

Bill

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Yes, it was in this thread. Two people liked it, but clicking on those likes in my notifications takes me to the top of the page. The post itself is gone. It doesn't  matter. Pointing out the problem won't change anything. They do love their trophies in the CCCA.

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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Matt,

 

I maybe an outlier, but on a personal level I couldn't disagree more, when you say that "The purpose is to keep values on these cars going up."  I don't give a whit about the value of my cars. If I had I would have sold when I had some pretty spectacular offers, years ago. I'm a hobbyist, my cars are not a commodity to be sold to the highest bidder. Call me stupid or out of touch, but no amount of money could buy the pleasure that my cars have brought me. Not trying to be mean spirited, but maybe form the perspective of a car salesman, who needs to put bread on the table, and often has to deal with bottom line owners, to whom a buck is more important then the car, it would be easy to become jaded.

 

I have a question how do you rate the various judging venues: Pebble Beach, Amelia Island,  other concours events, AACA, CCCA, single marque judging events. how about people's choice? I guess that we all recognize that all judging is not equal, so what's the answer? IMO each venue has it's own audience, and each is an integral part of the hobby. I'm old and judging doesn't have the same appeal, but that doesn't stop my from displaying. For others judging is all that counts. So when we old timers are gone how would you change the hobby?

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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

Are you kidding? My comment about too many perfect cars in judged CCCA competition was deleted? Wow.

 

33 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Yes, it was in this thread. Two people liked it, but ...


Yep, my “thumb” got snapped off along with 😳

Guess I better watch out who or what I “like” for the (only ?) one I now have left or it’s back to regular keyboard...

Edited by TTR (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

Matt,

 

I maybe an outlier, but on a personal level I couldn't disagree more, when you say that "The purpose is to keep values on these cars going up."  I don't give a whit about the value of my cars. If I had I would have sold when I had some pretty spectacular offers, years ago. I'm a hobbyist, my cars are not a commodity to be sold to the highest bidder. Call me stupid or out of touch, but no amount of money could buy the pleasure that my cars have brought me. Not trying to be mean spirited, but maybe form the perspective of a car salesman, who needs to put bread on the table, and often has to deal with bottom line owners, to whom a buck is more important then the car, it would be easy to become jaded.

 

I have a question how do you rate the various judging venues: Pebble Beach, Amelia Island,  other concours events, AACA, CCCA, single marque judging events. how about people's choice? I guess that we all recognize that all judging is not equal, so what's the answer? IMO each venue has it's own audience, and each is an integral part of the hobby. I'm old and judging doesn't have the same appeal, but that doesn't stop my from displaying. For others judging is all that counts. So when we old timers are gone how would you change the hobby?

 

I didn't say that as well as I should. What I meant was that the reason everyone goes light on the judging and hands their buddies 100-point scores is to keep values going up. I didn't mean that I thought it was a good thing. Having a 100-point CCCA car still kind-of means something (although with more and more of them, it becomes worth less and less). But the club sure loves those trophies. I recall going to my first CCCA Grand Classic with a car and everyone was excited to have me there since I was a young person. The long-timers asked why I wasn't having my car judged. "I don't think it's a high-point car and I don't really care about trophies," I said. Then they said, "Don't worry, we'll make sure you win."


And that's all I needed to know about the value of a CCCA trophy.

 

I am a long-term member of the CCCA and a cheerleader for better judging standards. Two or three years ago, an influential member of the national board floated some ideas about making the judging stricter and improving the quality of the results. A good portion of the club lost their collective minds and several quit the club over it. The ideas were shelved aside from a streamlined judging form and it was back to business as usual. Jeopardizing those 100-point scores wasn't met with enthusiasm because it would improve the club and its reputation, it was met with scorn and anger and the idea of improving the standards quietly died in the corner.

 

Judging is a necessarily subjective procedure. I don't have my cars judged simply because it doesn't matter to me, but I do judge cars for several reasons: One, I want to help the club and feel like it's my responsibility to volunteer my time and knowledge. Two, I often learn something I didn't know from someone with more expertise. And three, I think it's important to push for a set of standards that accurately represent the cars as they were, not as we wish they could be.

 

As for what clubs get it right, I think they all have advantages and disadvantages. For instance, I really like the NCRS and their dedication to avoiding over-restoration. Making your Corvette too perfect results in a deduction, not a perfect score. They want to restore cars to make them they way they actually were. I respect that. I think marque clubs do a good job for their specific marques. A trophy from the Buick Club would mean a lot more to me than most others simply because there's more expertise there and if my car measures up there, then it's worthy. 


I also like people's choice awards, not because they reflect the most well-restored cars but simply because it's what people like. That's OK too. It isn't pretending to be an award for authenticity, it's just something that appeals to people and if they vote for my car, I'm honored. Twice in the last year I've won a people's choice award and they mean a great deal to me. That's cool.

 

Concours events are a bit different. A concours is, and always has been, a celebration of beauty for beauty's sake. Yes, at the highest levels like Pebble they strive for authenticity, but it's really beauty that matters. It's primarily about design, but condition is a factor, as is color, interior, and intangibles like presentation (whitewalls/blackwalls, etc.). Correctness matters to them, but it's still secondary to overall beauty. Fake cars don't make the cut, of course, but not many ordinary cars do, either. It's a far more subjective standard that works simply because that's how it is and everyone agrees.

 

I have a bad reputation as being too hard on cars and on clubs who go easy. That's fine. But my only goal is to have the judging standards that accurately reflect what the cars were and can be. Perfection is nice, but none of the cars were perfect. High-end custom coachbuilders did beautiful work, but the moment the cars hit the road, they were just cars, not art. I love this photo (borrowed from the awesome thread on period photos), because it shows a fabulously valuable car [today] being used as a car. In the winter. It's just a car. That's all it was supposed to be. That's the point.

 

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I suppose handing out high scores makes everyone feel good, and I understand the point of view that says this is just a club and it's just for fun. But when guys who spend serious money have raging temper tantrums when they don't win, well, that kind of contradicts the argument that it's just for fun and doesn't matter. It obviously matters a great deal to people, and make no mistake--a significant part of that is the value that is added when a car wins important prizes.

 

Making those prizes easier to win doesn't improve the cars. In fact, I'd argue that it does exactly the opposite.

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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Here is the text of my most recent editorial that will be in the upcoming issue of the local CCCA regional magazine, "Northern Lights."

 

Are we going too far?


I am continually reminded just how absurdly high the standards for antique and Classic cars are and I wondered how we got there and just how silly it all seems when you really think about it. A gentleman recently called on a 1967 Corvette I have for sale, a car which has won every major award such a car can win and which has been restored to a level well beyond anything General Motors could achieve in the 1960s. It has been vetted (no pun intended) by experts at the highest levels and found to be exceptional and accurate in every single way that matters. Made-up and fake cars do not reach this level simply because by the time they do, so many expert eyes have traveled over them that any irregularities have already been spotted. Nevertheless, this interested party asked if it had also been examined and certified by some other organization represented by yet another group of initials. I had not heard of this organization, so he informed me that they use a database of photos of stamping pads from other Corvette engines to be sure the serial numbers have not been re-stamped (AKA faked). This is useful because, of course, “matching numbers” is so critical to a Corvette’s pedigree (as well as a growing number of other cars, which is another area of ever-increasing lunacy).


The mere existence of such an organization struck me as esoterica run amok, a situation that practically demands that a car shed its utilitarian roots and become something else. It also made me think about just how fragile the whole situation is. After all, this car was restored at great expense by one of the leading Corvette shops in the country. It has competed at multiple levels with three different certifying clubs each with their own standards. Experts from all parts of the Corvette world had examined the car in excruciating detail. And the result is that they found it to be correct in every way and gave it their highest awards. My heart sank at the idea that we’ve reached the point where we need experts to double-check the work of experts in order to keep values going up. You’re surely not going to drive such a precious car after paying all these experts to examine it, are you?

 

Then I wondered if it even really mattered. I mean, if experts can’t tell the difference, is there really any difference at all?

 

Few other hobbies insist on the level of perfection that has become commonplace in the collector car world—restoring antique furniture to like-new condition, for example, is a great way to destroy its value, not add more. In the car world, even “like new” is no longer acceptable at the highest levels. The current standard is, essentially, “perfection,” and that includes what they call provenance (a term I hate, but I lack a better one). At the very top of our hobby, the cars are not as they were when they were new; they’re as they could have been if factories were full of expert artisans with state-of-the-art tools and materials, where workers enjoyed an infinite amount of time to complete their tasks. And on top of that, we expect the cars must have led lives that always protected them from damage or from having too many owners or even the simple indignity of replacement parts.

 

I acknowledge that custom coachbuilders were astoundingly talented and that high-end automobiles were quite beautifully built. However, the people behind those cars still understood that they were merely machines designed for only a moment in time, not permanence and certainly not perfection. Within the first mile of being driven, an automobile ceases being perfect and meets its destiny as transportation.


I suppose it was inevitable that we would reach this point. As prices go up, so do expectations and the only way to separate the good from the great was to make perfection the benchmark. And perfection not only encompasses physical condition, but also history and pedigree—if such things are even knowable. Yes, I certainly understand why these things are important and that great cars are great because they combine all these factors. Condition and pedigree are separate things, of course, but they converge at the very top of the market and at that point, I think these cars we love stop being cars. Despite their obvious beauty, that makes me very sad.

 

Ostensibly, collectors at the highest levels will argue that they are “preserving” history. I don’t entirely agree, because these cars were never as good as they are today. But I think it’s worse that we strip them of their very purpose for existing in the first place—they are meant to be driven! We steal that from them by turning them into semi-static art and we deny them their place in history by turning them into things they never were and were never meant to be.

 

I think a lot of this is driven by a furious desire to see ever-increasing values (turning a hobby into a profit center is another thing that troubles me, but that’s a different topic for a different day). What is value? What makes one car “better” than another. After a certain point—such as with that Corvette—it requires a bit of faith, very much like the faith that we all exercise when we pull those ornate little pieces of paper out of our wallets and exchange them for durable goods. That piece of paper didn’t require $100 worth of materials and labor to create, but we treat it as if it does. That’s faith. And I think we’re doing the same thing to our cars.

 

When is it OK for a car to just be a car instead of an “investment?” When will people let them do their jobs instead of expecting them to be far more than they ever were? How much ridiculousness do we need to pretend we don’t notice in order to maintain the illusion?


I honestly don’t know. But it sure takes the fun out of it.

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18 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

When is it OK for a car to just be a car instead of an “investment?” When will people let them do their jobs instead of expecting them to be far more than they ever were? How much ridiculousness do we need to pretend we don’t notice in order to maintain the illusion?


I honestly don’t know. But it sure takes the fun out of it.


I owned and showed an early Mustang for 18 years. Many of my shows were National shows in both AACA and Mustang Club of America (MCA). My early National shows with MCA were quite eye opening. Several of the early Shelby’s were pushed out of trailers and pushed into place on the show field. After witnessing this on multiple occasions, I talked to several owners. They said they did this, so that the exhaust manifolds would not discolor, from the heat of the engine running. I was shocked at this, but that’s how it was. 
 

I think I enjoyed my drive home in my Mustang more than they did pushing their car into their trailer.

 

Kevin

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16 minutes ago, kevin1221 said:


I owned and showed an early Mustang for 18 years. Many of my shows were National shows in both AACA and Mustang Club of America (MCA). My early National shows with MCA were quite eye opening. Several of the early Shelby’s were pushed out of trailers and pushed into place on the show field. After witnessing this on multiple occasions, I talked to several owners. They said they did this, so that the exhaust manifolds would not discolor, from the heat of the engine running. I was shocked at this, but that’s how it was. 
 

I think I enjoyed my drive home in my Mustang more than they did pushing their car into their trailer.

 

Kevin

 

I know of an award-winning Boss 302 that doesn't have connecting rods or pistons inside its priceless numbers-matching block. Can't risk, you know, blowing it up by using it for what it was designed to do.

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15 minutes ago, kevin1221 said:


I owned and showed an early Mustang for 18 years. Many of my shows were National shows in both AACA and Mustang Club of America (MCA). My early National shows with MCA were quite eye opening. Several of the early Shelby’s were pushed out of trailers and pushed into place on the show field. After witnessing this on multiple occasions, I talked to several owners. They said they did this, so that the exhaust manifolds would not discolor, from the heat of the engine running. I was shocked at this, but that’s how it was. 
 

I think I enjoyed my drive home in my Mustang more than they did pushing their car into their trailer.

 

Kevin

I thought any AACA judging had to have the car driven on to show field?  I watched a “high point” Model A cough and sputter on to the Hershey show field, but no points deducted.  That’s my major criticism of the AACA “cosmetic” judging system, the cars should be started, and all functional items judged, or the awards are somewhat silly...lights should work, gauges should work, wipers should work...and so forth....It’s hard for me to believe that this hasn’t been incorporated into the AACA judging,  one’s lights can be non functional, but if the hose clamps are correct, you’re golden...

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I know of an award-winning Boss 302 that doesn't have connecting rods or pistons inside its priceless numbers-matching block. Can't risk, you know, blowing it up by using it for what it was designed to do.

 

That is so sad !

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1 hour ago, trimacar said:

I thought any AACA judging had to have the car driven on to show field?  I watched a “high point” Model A cough and sputter on to the Hershey show field, but no points deducted.  That’s my major criticism of the AACA “cosmetic” judging system, the cars should be started, and all functional items judged, or the awards are somewhat silly...lights should work, gauges should work, wipers should work...and so forth....It’s hard for me to believe that this hasn’t been incorporated into the AACA judging,  one’s lights can be non functional, but if the hose clamps are correct, you’re golden...

David

 

The cars I was referencing were at a MCA (Mustang Club of America) National Show. You are correct, AACA requires the car to drive onto the show field. MCA used to have tech inspection , as you described above, of the show cars, but that ended about 20 years ago.

 

Kevin

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8 minutes ago, kevin1221 said:

David

 

The cars I was referencing were at a MCA (Mustang Club of America) National Show. You are correct, AACA requires the car to drive onto the show field. MCA used to have tech inspection , as you described above, of the show cars, but that ended about 20 years ago.

 

Kevin

 

Driven on to the field?   Some of the coolest cars get towed on to the field.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

how do you rate the various judging venues: Pebble Beach, Amelia Island,  other concours

FYI these are "Beauty Contests"  One of the factors in your cars acceptance is influenced by who you are and how much money you have contributed now and in the past along with who you know on the board.  This is the REAL world.  Authenticity will be overlooked depending on who you are.  Several years ago a noted Packard expert resigned at Pebble because he objected to awarding a class win to a Packard everyone knew had an incorrect body.  They sure are fun to attend and definitely have their place and showcase the hobby. If you have not attended a major Concours you are missing out on a fun week end of car watching and PEOPLE watching which can be as much fun as the cars.  Like Matt i have not had a car judged for over 20 years and donated all my trophies to Habitat several years ago.  I don't get concerned about value trends.  As Matt has also stated they are not going to zero.  It may mean my kids will have to drive a Buick in retirement rather than a Mercedes..

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16 hours ago, trimacar said:

I thought any AACA judging had to have the car driven on to show field?  I watched a “high point” Model A cough and sputter on to the Hershey show field, but no points deducted.  That’s my major criticism of the AACA “cosmetic” judging system, the cars should be started, and all functional items judged, or the awards are somewhat silly...lights should work, gauges should work, wipers should work...and so forth....It’s hard for me to believe that this hasn’t been incorporated into the AACA judging,  one’s lights can be non functional, but if the hose clamps are correct, you’re golden...

 

David, that is one of the things I like about the PAS judging rules.

Any car that wants to be judged must complete at least one tour during the meet and all lights and accessories are checked for functionality.

 

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If someone's car looks "Showroom New" on a Show Field I really have now interest what so ever if the glove box light works. Keep the hood and doors closed so I can take a nice photo and look at the next car that catches my eye. I don't give a rodents butt about matching numbers either. Bob 

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Hate to contradict Matt but I believe CCCA shows are actually open to the public. I helped judge 1 CCCA show and personally saw a Duesenberg owner very nearly come to blows with a judge.  Threats were spoken and fists were raised. The Dues had no way to dim the headlights and the owner insisted that it came that way from the factory. 

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Just now, 1937hd45 said:

If someone's car looks "Showroom New" on a Show Field I really have now interest what so ever if the glove box light works. Keep the hood and doors closed so I can take a nice photo and look at the next car that catches my eye. I don't give a rodents butt about matching numbers either. Bob 

 

That may be true for pure aesthetics but if you want your car judged then your 'showroom new' car should perform as a new car should - everything should work as intended and it should be able to complete a tour of at least 50 miles.

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56 minutes ago, zepher said:

 

David, that is one of the things I like about the PAS judging rules.

Any car that wants to be judged must complete at least one tour during the meet and all lights and accessories are checked for functionality.

 


I guess I will not be judged when I finally get done and go to a tour, I intentionally didn’t hook up my cigar lighters as I didn’t want anyone to play with them... I will drive it around though.

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5 minutes ago, zepher said:

 

That may be true for pure aesthetics but if you want your car judged then your 'showroom new' car should perform as a new car should - everything should work as intended and it should be able to complete a tour of at least 50 miles.

 

 

 

……….your Car Club and judging standards may vary.

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I have shown in AACA, Concours and Marque Club events and have been lucky enough to do well in all venues.  I don't own a CCCA car so can't comment on the judging within those shows.  I think AACA has it about right as far as their point system goes and If I have any criticism it would be that the leap to a Grand National award is too easy.   I have seen far too many SR Grand National awards that stretch a AACA SR National First.  I don't think anyone is trying to give a buddy a break but just not enough people who know what a Sr. Grand National winner should look like.  I agree that the most telling awards are those from the  Marque clubs who usually know what a well sorted car looks like.  The Concours judging is mostly whimsical where the story about the car is more important than the condition, though that is not always the case.  Lately I have seen some function requirements at concour events which I think is good, and in most cases the rules require the car to be driven onto the field under its own power.   I would also say that Concour judging is often very tough as there are often many cars that could be considered the best and in the end someone has to choose.  The only problem with people's choice award is when they just put out stacks of ballots at the ballot box and someone grabs a bunch and stuffs the box.  At a recent event in Florida the people's choice award was a joke and the MC made the comment that the owner should run for the Mayor of Chicago! 

Edited by Avanti Bill (see edit history)
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40 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Hate to contradict Matt but I believe CCCA shows are actually open to the public. I helped judge 1 CCCA show and personally saw a Duesenberg owner very nearly come to blows with a judge.  Threats were spoken and fists were raised. The Dues had no way to dim the headlights and the owner insisted that it came that way from the factory. 


things may be by region or have changed but historically there were not.

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This is often driven by insurance concerns.  MARC and MAFCA (I think, MARC for sure) have regional meets that are not technically opened to the public either, and I have been told that is why.  Tours, overnite events, or a multi day meet is a little different than a public show type event.

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1 hour ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

This is often driven by insurance concerns.  MARC and MAFCA (I think, MARC for sure) have regional meets that are not technically opened to the public either, and I have been told that is why.  Tours, overnite events, or a multi day meet is a little different than a public show type event.

 

 

Is the judging at the MARC and MAFCA meets done inside closed buildings, out of sight of owners and family members? Hard Core Super Duper My Model A That I Spent $150,000.00 on the Restoration types, argue to death that they have a better one than the other guy are in an institution of their own.  Bob

Edited by 1937hd45 (see edit history)
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I wasn't trying to infer that I disagree with everything that Matt was saying. I do appreciate the fact that we have steadily moved away from competitive judging as the only vetting process for judging a car. Historical significance seems to be an ever important aspect of our car hobby, but I don't see it mentioned much in this thread. I think most of us are old enough to remember when everything had to be restored. During the 70's- the mid 90's even beautiful survivors, were considered to be just waiting in the queue for their turn at restoration. It was hard to argue against, as prices continued to climb, spurred on by demand by the largest generation of car crazies, the Baby Boomers. I know I was there, but unlike the smart money people I walked when the money talked. The offers I received make for interesting stories, but I've never second guessed my decisions. It was an easy choice for me, a car that I could experience any time I wanted to, or numbers in a portfolio.

 

I see judging as necessary part of what we do as old car people. It provides some degree of order in the otherwise chaotic hobby of which we take ownership. It provides a challenge for goal oriented owners, for which nothing else will satisfy. It provides a venue for exposing the cars to hobbyists and outsiders alike. That's why I have never agreed with closed judging, events, like those of the CCCA. I think we all recognize the discrepancy between judging subjectivity and reality, but it is our reality and we are stuck with it.

 

As I said I have never been to an AACA judging event and probably never will, so I was surprised that there are no systems check on the field. My first introduction to the lack of systems check was the one time my car was invited to Pebble Beach. I was really mystified until, I began to understand "French Judging," and the fact that all cars on the field were thoroughly researched and vetted prior to being invited. But I was dumbfounded when I told that the AACA judging didn't require an operational check. At least the CCCA judging requires this fundamental procedure as part of the process. I really was not trying to be combative or sarcastic when I asked about AACA judging. I still really don't know how it fits in.

 

My best to Matt and everyone else that is still having to work to put bread on the table. It's not easy for anyone, but with some luck we will all get through this thing.

 

Bill

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55 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

 

 

Is the judging at the MARC and MADCA meets done inside closed buildings, out of sight of owners and family members? Hard Core Super Duper My Model A That I Spent $150,000.00 on the Restoration types, argue to death that they have a better one than the other guy are in an institution of their own.  Bob

 Bob I have only been to one MARC regional, a long time ago it was in CT.  I didn't pay a lot of attention to judging fine point to be honest, not sure how they handled it.  I think it would be really hard to have the best A in the world, they are so well documented.  I know those guys have little tolorance for reproduction parts at all which drives cost up quite a bit.  I would imagine some may be a bit overzelous...

 

Bill great perspective and nothing to apologize for, imo.

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