McPherson College Restoration Technology

[mike6024]

 

[mike6024]

 

 

In the specialized work of automotive careers, one midwest college is doing something unique. They’re educating and promoting the next generation of automotive restorers. That’s right…McPherson college is the only institution of higher education in America that offers a bachelor’s degree in restoration technology. As our FYI reporter Stephanie Hart explains, graduates are schooled in all aspects of the car collecting world.

 

BASITH PH
Man I need a tour at McPherson College!

 Curren Harris
Come out to our 21st annual C.A.R.S Club Motoring Festival the first weekend in May 2020!  We do shop tours and lab demonstrations as well as bring in around 400 cars from all over the country!

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

There has been some talk about something like that out here. Maybe that might have something to do with what has gone on, not sure? Nice to see people looking at  careers in the vintages cars as a skilled trade. Out here businesses are still targeted. (old school out look on things) Some people just can not get past the thought of owning other peoples businesses. Hope the college for the vintage cars does well, Idaho could do a lot of things to, just has to cut loose of an old way of thinking/looking at things.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Pennsylvania College of Technology, the widely respected

trade-school affiliate of the Pennsylvania State University,

has an Associates' Degree program on antique-car restoration.

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Trulyvintage]

McPherson ?

 

Their placement program leaves a lot to be desired ....

 

I set up Louie at Last Chance Garage with that college - contact information was exchanged - this was before Memorial Day - Louie has had no contact from them at all.

 

Louie ended up finding someone local.

 

Jim

Edited August 11, 2019 by Trulyvintage (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

We have had employees from McPherson as well as Penn Tech. If I have one concern it is this; These schools seem to prepare students to start and operate their own shops with heavy emphasis on the business side of things rather than the actual "restoration" skills that are so badly needed by the industry.  We have little interest in training those who see us as a "stop over" where they can learn the daily ins and out of the restoration business (and develop a list of potential customers) before opening their own shop. Don't get me wrong, I applaud anyone with the gumption to start their own business but I am less excited about training our competitors. This is the first year in several years that we have not received unsolicited applications from recent graduates of these schools.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Restorer32 (see edit history)

[trimacar]

5 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

We have little interest in training those who see us as a "stop over" where they can learn the daily ins and out of the restoration business (and develop a list of potential customers) before opening their own shop.

 

While I see your point, I also have seen that there's little one can do to stop an employee from starting their own shop if they wish.

 

I worked at White Post Restorations, and can give you a list of people who've worked there and gone on to have very successful businesses.  One had a major client, who was so impressed with his work, "steal him away" set him up in business doing just that one man's restorations.  Another set up a metal working shop and is doing great.  Another had a successful shop for a while and even restored a Tucker or two. Yet another set up a full service restoration shop and was very successful, although he's moved on to another phase of his career now.  That shop is still open under his partner's management.

 

Thus, the restoration shop spawned a whole industry of car restoration in the Shenandoah Valley.  The owner may not have been happy about it, but really nothing he could do. The on the job training was invaluable in giving people more choices and well trained craftsmen to do restoration work, so I don't see it as a bad thing.  The owner of the restoration shop got value for the work they did, they were able to hone their skills to the shop's advantage, and money was made by the shop.

[Ronnie]

Since we are on the subject of McPherson College,  I was wondering of anyone might remember, or might have known, Julian "Pop" Rice that started McPherson's automobile restoration program? McPherson still gives out the "Pop Rice Award" to one of their students each year in his honor.

 

After leaving McPherson (over 50 years ago) Pop moved to a location in Tennessee near me and started Peggy Craft Restorers, a business that was handed down to his son and now to his grandson who still carries on the work of restoring cars. I knew Pop and his family well. He was a master craftsman who's workmanship was second to none. He did a lot of work for Howard Baker Jr. and the Coker family (Coker Tire)  from Chattanooga. Pop has been gone for many years but I was hoping someone here might remember him

Edited August 12, 2019 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[29 franklin]

I don't know Pop Rice personally  but I do know that I have Pops 1931 franklin. He restored the car in 1969 for the guy that I bought the car from .It won an AACA 1st place in 1970. It is still a beauty. I drove it 500 miles two weeks ago at the Franklin Trek in upstate NY. Purred like a kitten . I have all the bills from Peggy Craft Restorers. He did great work. 

[mercer09]

well I certainly see Restorer 32's point of view. I'ld rather hire elsewhere as well.............

 

better chance of retention is important when it takes a couple of years to hone one's skills. It is a loss leader at the beginning of the process for the restoration shop.

[60FlatTop]

For 20 years I taught the final year of a commercial and industrial HVAC apprenticeship. The best outcomes were when an employer sponsored ($$$) the employee student for the four year term. It gave commitment on both sides and helped them build a relationship over the first years where a high level of job turnover can occur. I taught the business operation, but in a manner that encouraged staying with the employer and understanding the needs of the business.

 

I would encourage a group the SEMA to promote the college with shops to take a similar approach. It is a worthwhile investment if the employer fully buys in.

[Ronnie]

4 hours ago, 29 franklin said:

I don't know Pop Rice personally  but I do know that I have Pops 1931 franklin. He restored the car in 1969 for the guy that I bought the car from .It won an AACA 1st place in 1970. It is still a beauty. I drove it 500 miles two weeks ago at the Franklin Trek in upstate NY. Purred like a kitten . I have all the bills from Peggy Craft Restorers. He did great work. 

 

Good to know that you have heard of him and have a car he restored. I was probably around Pop's shop with his grandson in '69 when your car was being restored. At that time the Rice family lived right at the shop where they restored the cars. They did a lot of the restoration work in their basement. I visited their home several times.

[gwells]

I knew Pop Rice a little. A number of the collectors in the Nashville area used Pop for a lot of work.

 

Didn't know of his connection to McPherson.

[Bhigdog]

On 8/12/2019 at 8:24 AM, Restorer32 said:

We have had employees from McPherson as well as Penn Tech. If I have one concern it is this; These schools seem to prepare students to start and operate their own shops with heavy emphasis on the business side of things rather than the actual "restoration" skills that are so badly needed by the industry.  We have little interest in training those who see us as a "stop over" where they can learn the daily ins and out of the restoration business (and develop a list of potential customers) before opening their own shop. Don't get me wrong, I applaud anyone with the gumption to start their own business but I am less excited about training our competitors. This is the first year in several years that we have not received unsolicited applications from recent graduates of these schools.

 

You and the school are at a bit of cross purposes. You see your interests best served by the school producing a crop of loyal grunts to serve the trade. The school sees its interests best served by producing a crop of persons with the ability to enter and in the future expand the trade.

I'm thinking the trade, as a whole, is best served by the schools approach...........................Bob

Edited August 13, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[bryankazmer]

This issue is not unique to the auto restoration business.  You can have a non-compete clause in an employment contract, but be aware that they are very hard to enforce because you cannot prohibit a person from earning a living in their field.  Another route is to have a sort of "vesting" whereby a new employee who leaves within the first couple of years owes you a declining compensation for the education they received on the job.

 

 

[Bhigdog]

3 minutes ago, bryankazmer said:

Another route is to have a sort of "vesting" whereby a new employee who leaves within the first couple of years owes you a declining compensation for the education they received on the job.

 

It's a car repair shop not a plantation.......Sheesh!................Bob

[bryankazmer]

You can like the idea or not, but it's pretty common out there.  The most common is when the company pays for your college while you are working for them.  The first wide use I was aware of was when Ross Perot's energy company did most of their hiring from a small Texas college, and thought fresh grads were learning as much as producing.

[alsancle]

There are lots of people in the world that can run a business, good or bad.  But try to find a skilled body guy, or painter, or upholster, etc,  who is not 60 plus years old.   The death of the car hobby will be from the lack of skilled technicians that can restore and maintain the cars. 

 

If the restoration degrees are really focused on the business side and not the hard skills they are wasting everyone's time.    It should be 90/10 hard skills.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

18 minutes ago, bryankazmer said:

The most common is when the company pays for your college while you are working for them.

 

That's a bit different than, in effect,  "charging" an employee for his time spent in your service. In the aviation industry that is tried to some extent when a company spends $50,000 in real dollars over only 3 weeks to type rate a new pilot in their aircraft and requires the pilot to stay with them for one year. Another wrinkle in exploitation is the intern system where a hopeful newbie is asked to work for free to "gain experience". That also is used to this day in some facets of aviation where a pilot with very little experience is used  as a co-pilot for little or no pay..............Bob

 

[bryankazmer]

The unpaid internship is particularly abused in pre-vet students trying to boost resumes in a very competitive process.

Engineering internships, at least in my experience ,were on the other hand very generous - you were paid like a new grad.

All depends on supply/demand in the profession.

[Bhigdog]

18 minutes ago, alsancle said:

But try to find a skilled body guy, or painter, or upholster, etc,  who is not 60 plus years old.

 

Urban myth! .....Restoration ain't brain surgery and ninety percent of quality work is attention to detail and a customer willing to pay for it.

 

[Bhigdog]

1 minute ago, bryankazmer said:

All depends on supply/demand in the profession.

 

BINGO!...............Bob

[60FlatTop]

42 minutes ago, alsancle said:

But try to find a skilled body guy, or painter, or upholster, etc,  who is not 60 plus years old.

 

McPherson is a college as opposed to many technical training and apprentice programs that have some level of government funding aid. Most common to the aided programs is regular drug testing. Sponsors of the programs, over the past couple of decades say they can't keep trade students because they can't pass the drug tests. I have set in the chambers in City Hall and heard "We have funds, instructors, jobs, employer support, but they can't pass a weekly drug test to stay in".

 

Pick up the phone or email any state or federal job development training program. Ask what the biggest deterrent to completion of the program is. 

[bryankazmer]

I generally called drug testing "the stupid test" because if you know you are going to be tested as a condition of employment.....

And yet there were failures

 

This is becoming a much more difficult area with the legalization of marijuana in many states as the testing quantification and impairment levels are not as established as alcohol, and THC is a slow eliminating chemical.

[Xander Wildeisen]

 

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

 

Urban myth! .....Restoration ain't brain surgery and ninety percent of quality work is attention to detail and a customer willing to pay for it.

 

 

I couldn't disagree with you more.   My data is based on observation.   All the restorers I know are over 60 and retiring.   All of them complain about finding skilled help.

 

[Bhigdog]

7 minutes ago, alsancle said:

All the restorers I know are over 60 and retiring.   All of them complain about finding skilled help.

 

You make my point.

The fact that they are over sixty years of age has nothing to do with their skill level and in fact they may have been at their best when 30 years of age.

The industry would be far better served by McPherson turning out a cadre of students skilled enough to enter the trade with an understanding of the business aspects and the drive to open their own shops, thus providing further avenues to success for others.

Expecting McPherson to turn out mindless upholstery/sheet metal/trim drones to feed existing shops is short sighted at best.............Bob

[Restorer32]

Knowing HOW to restore cars is different from being actually ABLE to restore cars. Maybe the cars you work on require little skill to restore.  I always say that with the work we do 5o% requires no skill, 25 % requires some skill and 25% requires a LOT of skill. All depends on the expected results I guess

 

13 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

 

You make my point.

The fact that they are over sixty years of age has nothing to do with their skill level and in fact they may have been at their best when 30 years of age.

The industry would be far better served by McPherson turning out a cadre of students skilled enough to enter the trade with an understanding of the business aspects and the drive to open their own shops, thus providing further avenues to success for others.

Expecting McPherson to turn out mindless upholstery/sheet metal/trim drones to feed existing shops is short sighted at best.............Bob

 

[JACK M]

I hate to be stereotypical.

But I have never met a good body guy that had the wherewithal to run a successful business.

I do know a couple of mediocre body guys that were smart enough to put their tools away and run the show. 

 

[Bhigdog]

19 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Knowing HOW to restore cars is different from being actually ABLE to restore cars. Maybe the cars you work on require little skill to restore.  I always say that with the work we do 5o% requires no skill, 25 % requires some skill and 25% requires a LOT of skill. All depends on the expected results I guess

 

 

 

I of course bow to your obvious experience in the real world. That said, I think you make the point that meerly being highly skilled in one aspect of the trade is not necessarily the key to success in the trade and that a person who had adequate skills and a well rounded understanding of the business would have the best chance of furthering the future of the "trade". That is the point of the discussion, isn't it?.............Bob

Edited August 13, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[JACK M]

Another comment about trade schools.

I do believe they have a place in education.

However,  I have hired guys that graduated the small engine classes but were not mechanics.

On the other hand I have hired guys with no education to speak of that had the knack.

I had a boat dealership.

I started up a few small businesses in my past, a couple that I walked away from and a couple that I sold at profit before I settled into the boat thing.

[Restorer32]

We have had, I would guess, maybe 50 employees over the years. We usually have 2 or 3 mechanics, usually 2 body men, a metal worker a wood worker and an upholsterer. I can honestly say in all these years we have employed maybe 6 people who I would call "restorers". That is, guys who could perform all the various operations necessary to restore a car. So I agree that well rounded individuals 

 with wide ranging skills are what is needed in this industry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[60FlatTop]

I taught the fourth year of a four year apprenticeship program, as well as specific skill and operation classes in HVAC and power plant operation. I worked in the field and taught two evenings a week to employed adults, as well as topical as needed courses through my business. I started in 1984 and still present courses as needed. At the end of it all my most frequent comment is "The advanced course is your last chance to learn the basics."

In the final year I had many students whom could not do passing work. I would get on the table and jump up and down asking to teach the earlier years. Always the same reply; " We can get first and second year instructors a dime a dozen. People with your experience are hard to find for the advanced courses." I told them, with a solid understanding of the basics, they could let any Bozo teach the fourth year. It did me no good to fail a person. They would just repeat the fourth year when they didn't know the first or second year material.

 

I can see a similar situation in automotive training adhering to principles of education that combine skill goals in a progression of levels.

I do capital equipment and operational audits as a business. My first employee was a retired mechanical Engineer with 40 years of experience. The first job he accompanied the lead mechanic of a building and me on a walk through of his building. We got in my truck to leave, he looked t me, and said "that was the most humbling experience I've had in my life". Ten years ago and he is still ready on select jobs.

 

Many educational experiences focus on familiarization more than skill building. Car restoration and building operation are quite similar in the multi-faceted skills required. Like the body man who has the car that doesn't run well or the mechanic who can't paint. It is hard to span those skill sets. For me a good paint job is directly proportional to the number of times I am willing to do a job over. Think of that van you see emblazoned "Plumbing, Heating, Cooling, Roofing, and Gutters". It is a lot of skills. I have followed the McPherson restoration work since it started and think highly of the school. The graduating student has proven their ability to take on a big job (four years worth_ and complete it, is familiar at a passing level with the trade, and ready to learn our way of doing things as well as capable of knowledgeable input. If I was in the business I would probably look to a second year student offer support and a job.

 

Pragmatism, my first instructor job was with a High School BOCES that contracted a job development program. In the loft over the classroom were large refrigeration trainers that had been broken and abandoned. My class got them down, blew off the dust, and got them all working again. A few months later, at a mall job fair, the school displayed the trainers we fixed as part of their comprehensive High School program.

 

I am for the training, but don't expect a great profit maker to walk in your door. There is more to learn.

 

One more caution: That fabled 60+ year old, he knows all the limitations of what can be done. The young skilled person may just succeed where the old guy won't try.

 

Bernie

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

 

You make my point.

 

 

Without sounding too disrespectful,  do you mind me asking how many real restoration shops you have been in lately?

[Matt Harwood]

2 hours ago, JACK M said:

I hate to be stereotypical.

But I have never met a good body guy that had the wherewithal to run a successful business.

I do know a couple of mediocre body guys that were smart enough to put their tools away and run the show. 

 

 

I don't know a lot of body guys, but yes, the really talented ones always seem to do their best work at someone else's shop. My favorite body guy tried his own shop and it was chaos all the time and everything was a scramble. Eventually it failed badly enough that he said he was going to move to Mexico and just live as a drifter on the beach. Now he's working at another friend's restoration shop and turning out quality work once again and he's probably happier.

 

Not everyone needs to be their own businessman and it's OK to work for someone else if you enjoy the work and are paying your bills. I often long for the old days when someone else would tell me what to do and I'd just do that thing until it was done, then get assigned another task. At the end of the day I'd go home and have my own free time and not have to think about it until the next morning. Being the boss sometimes isn't the glamorous position it appears to be. I'm the first one in each morning and the last one to leave each night and the last one to get paid every week and the only thing I think about at night is how much work there still is to do and how it's all my fault if it goes wrong. That's supposed to be an improvement?!?

 

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

Without sounding too disrespectful,  do you mind me asking how many real restoration shops you have been in lately?

 

With out being at all disrespectful: I don't run a trade school or own a restoration shop but I do know one doesn't have to be a chicken to judge an egg.

The thrust of the conversation is; Is the industry better served by McPherson turning out well rounded students able to enter the field well grounded in both the basics and business aspects or would the industry be better served long term by turning out narrowly focused specialists?

I submit the former.

Now if you want the question to be : Would any individual shop be better off able to hire a recent graduate who was a very proficient specialist at an entry level wage?

Ask any shop owner...Bob

Edited August 13, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[alsancle]

31 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

 

With out being at all disrespectful: I don't run a trade school or own a restoration shop but I do know one doesn't have to be a chicken to judge an egg.

The thrust of the conversation is; Is the industry better served by McPherson turning out well rounded students able to enter the field well grounded in both the basics and business aspects or would the industry be better served long term by turning out narrowly focused specialists?

I submit the former....Bob

 

Have you ever  spent any real time in a restoration shop?    And I don't mean a body shop that has a disassembled Ford Falcon in the back room.  I mean real shop doing full body off restorations.    If you really believe that teaching marketing and Excel is what the industry needs then I know you haven't.

[Bhigdog]

If by real you mean a shop that caters to a miniscule and elitist segment of the hobby. No, i have not. Do I believe that a loss of those shops and their hand wringing over lack of talent would seriously impact the hobby as enjoyed by the vast majority of us? No, I do not....bob

Edited August 13, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

Without sounding too disrespectful,  do you mind me asking how many real restoration shops you have been in lately?

 

it has been, maybe 6 or 8 years since I stopped in a restoration shop or even a collector car dealer. I stopped in one near me, on RT 104 in Spencerport, New York and ran into one of those wannabe TV personality types. It just turned me off from wanting to have a repeat of that experience.

 

I probably saved quite a bit of money, but I used to stop anywhere that looked like old car activities.

 

The last REAL shop I stopped in was Keysor Automobile Works in Bouckville, NY. If I get down that way again I'd stop. But I will just avoid the others. Harwood's looks like a good spot. Just none of that random stuff.

[Bhigdog]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Have you ever  spent any real time in a restoration shop? 

If by real you mean a shop that caters to a miniscule and elitist segment of the hobby. No, i have not. Do I believe that a loss of those shops and their hand wringing over lack of talent would seriously impact the hobby as enjoyed by the vast majority of us? No, I do not

Now, if by real you mean a shop that removes bodies and strips them of every nut and bolt, strips frames to the bare members, disassembles and refurbishes instruments, does custom one off engine turned instrument panels, custom makes wiring harnesses, rebuilds motors, pumps, switches  and controls, rebuilds convertible top frames down to making the special rivits, is comfortable with TIG, MIG, stick and gas, lead, braze or body filler, polishing brass, SS, plastic or even glass,  converts hard top 1/4 panels into convert panels, rebuilds transmissions and engines, installs ( but not sews) complete interiors,  does all body work including panel welding, has a machine shop including lathe, Bridgeport mill, drill presses, DoAll saws, surface grinder, metal shaper, english wheel for body patch panels, and completes the cars to and including the final painting and does all the above in house.

Now, if by real you mean a shop that has had it's cars awarded AACA grand national status and been awarded at multiple concours events including Meadow Brook, Radnor Hunt (multiple awards), Keene Land, Ault Park ( multiple awards), had one of it's cars given the program's full page color treatment as an example of class at the Inn at St Johns. etc etc.

Then yes, if that's what you mean, I have spent a few hours in a real restoration shop. Many many thousands of hours in fact. And no, there is no old Falcon in the back room. But if there was it would be welcome.................Bob

Edited August 13, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)