Replace window glass with what?

[stvaughn]

1932 REO Model S sedan.  The right front door window is cracked. It is still intact and reasonably secure with clear Gorilla tape. As far as I can tell all the windows are original glass. What should I replace the broken window with?

 

 Thanks, Steve 

[JACK M]

If its flat then replace it with glass.

Any good glass shop can cut Laminated glass to your pattern.

[Walt G]

Safety glass, not sure but I hope by 1932 Reo had safety glass, if not put it in anyway - plate glass is just to dangerous if it breaks.

[R Walling]

When you replace the glass, make sure that the DOT stamp is on it and visible when installed.

 

 Interesting note,

 The man that invented safety glass was killed in an accident when his head went through the plate glass on his car that he didn't bother to replace.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Roger Walling (see edit history)

[stvaughn]

I believe that all the existing glass is plate glass. There are no markings of any kind on the glass. 

[Walt G]

Re the plate glass- if you roll down a window and look at the edge, it should look like two pieces of glass bonded together . If it is plate glass, save up your $ and inquire with your local car club to see if anyone recommends a local glass place that can replace all the glass. Will not be cheap to do but just not worth the possibility it could break and you will see yourself or someone else injured.

[Walt G]

Safety glass is the two pieces bonded together

[CarlLaFong]

26 minutes ago, Roger Walling said:

When you replace the glass, make sure that the DOT stamp is on it and visible when installed.

 

 Interesting note,

 The man that invented safety glass was killed in an accident when his head went through the plate glass on his car that he didn't bother to replace.

I found that ironic, so I looked it up. Safety glass was invented by Edouard Benedictus. There seems to be no mention of his death or the circumstances of his passing. I suspect this might be myth

[West Peterson]

33 minutes ago, Roger Walling said:

When you replace the glass, make sure that the DOT stamp is on it and visible when installed.

 

Why?

 

[Bhigdog]

Any good glass shop can cut and edge grind flat safety glass especially if you have an intact pattern. It's not that difficult or expensive. The glass is scored and broken like plain glass. A line of alcohol is poured along the break and ignited, after few seconds the clear plastic lamination is soft enough to let the glass be pulled apart. At least that's how my guy does it. Easy Peasy. If your glass has a date code or safety glass marking some shops can duplicate it for an extra upcharge. .....................Bob

[Rusty_OToole]

It's flat glass, any auto glass shop can cut a replacement. Take it to the glass shop and let them do it. It's not very difficult or expensive.

[Lebowski]

4 hours ago, CarlLaFong said:

Safety glass was invented by Edouard Benedictus. 

 

From Wikipedia...

 

Laminated glass was invented in 1903 by the French chemist Édouard Bénédictus (1878-1930), inspired by a laboratory accident. A glass flask had become coated with the plastic cellulose nitrate and when dropped shattered but did not break into pieces.However, it was not until 1909 that Benedictus filed a patent, after hearing about a car accident where two women were severely injured by glass debris. In 1911, he formed the Société du Verre Triplex, which fabricated a glass-plastic composite to reduce injuries in car accidents. Production of Triplex glass was slow and painstaking, making it expensive. It was not immediately widely adopted by automobile manufacturers, but laminated glass was widely used in the eyepieces of gas masks during World War I. In 1912, the process was licensed to The English Triplex Safety Glass Company. Subsequently, in the United States, both Libbey Owens-Ford and Du Pont de Nemours with Pittsburg Plate Glass produced Triplex

[1937hd45]

Find a glass guy that understands how to use a ruler or tape measure, ask him to demonstrate how he reads it. Bob 

[nickelroadster]

make sure you get the right thickness of glass for your channel.

[West Peterson]

6 hours ago, Roger Walling said:

When you replace the glass, make sure that the DOT stamp is on it and visible when installed.

 

 

Serious question ... why would you do this?

 

[1937hd45]

2 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

Serious question ... why would you do this?

 

The sheet of glass only has one as I understand things. Ford V8 guys acid etch the original style logos in every piece. Model A guys are into date stamps on generator covers and Corvette guys like yellow weather stripping adhesive smeared on doors. Some of us are just swept away by the shear beauty of Pebble Beach cars. 

 

Bob 

[wayne sheldon]

Quote "

  11 hours ago, Roger Walling said:

When you replace the glass, make sure that the DOT stamp is on it and visible when installed."

 

 

Serious question ... why would you do this? "

 

Serious answer.

 

Technically, some states require this by law. However, many hobbyists do not like or want such markings on the windows of their collector car that did not have them to begin with.

 

By the way, one good glass shop I used to use told me that the little marking is called a "bug".  He cautioned me, that his license was in jeopardy by state law if he did not put the bug on the window of a motor vehicle. He then replaced my window (without the bug), I paid him cash, and I got no receipt. I was happy. He has long since retired, and I still praise him for keeping my car right.

 

Another way. Take your glass in, tell them it is for a curio shelf, dimensions are critical to fit in the framework. Ask for no bug, or they may do it anyway. Then install into your car yourself. Curio shelves are not required to have a bug in the corner. If you are replacing unbroken plate glass windows in a car early enough to have had plate glass originally? Tell them you are concerned about safety for your grandchildren.

[edinmass]

Most cars had the stamp on the glass early on. Many restoration shops have made duplicate stamps from the era. Here is a photo of a stamp from a 1932 Pierce Arrow  that was on the stand at the New York Auto Show. The glass has turned yellow with age. This is the largest early stamp I have ever seen. Duplate.

Edited December 18, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Bear in mind that you might have trouble finding safety glass in a thickness that will work on your car. Safety glass is a bit thicker than plate. We ran into this problem with a '49 VW we restored. Safety glass in the standard thickness just would not work in the doors. It fit too tight to roll up and down. After a bit of head scratching we realized that tempered glass is thinner than safety glass. It worked a treat.

[Friartuck]

AACA and CCCA judging rules cite the need for safety glass when entering a judging meet.  After verifying the fire extinguisher, glass is the next thing.

[stvaughn]

36 minutes ago, Friartuck said:

AACA and CCCA judging rules cite the need for safety glass when entering a judging meet.  After verifying the fire extinguisher, glass is the next thing.

Friartuck,

 

If I understand what you are saying then AACA would be happy if my windows had the above mentioned “bug” on them. Is that correct? Since my cars are not high priced valuable collector cars would replacing all the glass with safety glass have any effect on the value either positive or negative?

 

Steve

[Restorer32]

In 93 judging credits I have yet to see a judge look for safety glass nor have I ever heard it mentioned at the judging breakfast. Is it even mentioned in the Judging Manual? 

[Restorer32]

Nor have I ever seen a deduction for lack of "bugs".

[Restorer32]

Don't get me wrong. Safety glass in place of plate is a great idea. We are currently restoring a 1918 Rauch and Lang Electric and have gone to great expense to replace all the original plate with safety and by great expense I mean in excess of $4k for 4 curved safety glass windows to replace the damaged originals.

[West Peterson]

I understand wanting to put the "correct" "bug" on your glass, but why the standard modern DOT bug that you'd get at a generic glass shop mentioned above? I also know that AACA and CCCA require safety glass, but do they require the bug? It is very easy to recognize safety glass without the markings. I would NEVER put a modern "bug" on my glass because they are about four or five times larger than what was on it when original. In fact, IF I were a judge, I would NOT like to see the modern bug, and if I had to pick a winner between two identical cars and it was a difficult choice, if one had the unauthentic markings in the glass, it may be enough to persuade me in picking the other car.

[Restorer32]

Please show me where AACA requires Safety glass. Not saying they don't and it is a good idea but my cursory look at the Judges Guidelines finds nothing addressing safety glass. Is it listed on the exterior field judging sheet? I would be happy to be proven wrong.

[PFitz]

1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

Bear in mind that you might have trouble finding safety glass in a thickness that will work on your car. Safety glass is a bit thicker than plate. We ran into this problem with a '49 VW we restored. Safety glass in the standard thickness just would not work in the doors. It fit too tight to roll up and down. After a bit of head scratching we realized that tempered glass is thinner than safety glass. It worked a treat.

 Ran into this problem when using the original beaded edge rubber channel for swing-out type windshield frames. The original safety laminate from the late 1920s and early 30s is thinner than the modern stuff.

 

Just so happened that my local glass shop builds and repairs freezer case doors for  a local chain of super markets. They told me that by State law those big glass doors have to have safety laminate, but it's thinner to keep the weight of the door down. Turns out it's the correct thickness to match the old W/S frames and the reproduction frames that NC Industries in PA is making.  The glass shop no longer does the freezer doors, but they do order the thinner sheets when I have W/S frame to be redone and it has to have the rubber channel.

 

Very often the modern safety glass will fit in the old frames and lift channels using the thinner bute tape, or black silicone sealer that some shops use. But if original look o using rubber channel is important, you might ask your glass shop if they can order the thinner safety laminate.

 

Paul

Edited December 18, 2018 by PFitz (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

The question is does AACA REQUIRE replacement of plate with safety.

[West Peterson]

Apparently not:

16. Safety glass will be accepted. Replacement glass without the manufacturer's logo; i.e., PPG, LOF, etc. will be accepted.

 

So, going back to my question, why would anyone want to put the big gawdy modern safety glass logo on their glass? The original logo (LOF mfc.) on my Packard is about the size of a match tip, and you have to look HARD to find it.

[Friartuck]

I draw your attention to the CCCA Judges Handbook. The intent is clear (safety) and I rest my case:

 

AUTOMATIC DISQUALIFICATIONS

There are six Disqualifications. Check the disqualifications first and

place a check mark in the appropriate YES or NO Disqualification

Box(s) at the top of the Judging Form (if Disqualified, notify the

Area Head Judge immediately).

Six Items that automatically disqualify a Classic

1. No Underwriters Laboratories approved fire extinguisher.

2. Non-safety glass in exterior windows. (See exception in the

detailed description later in this manual.)

3. Non-authentic braking system.

Exceptions: The conversion of a Classic from two to four wheel

brakes is allowed if the added brakes are of the same type and

system as the original equipment (no deduction). The addition

of a booster to an otherwise authentic system is an authenticity

deduction, see Category #20.

4. Non-authentic automatic transmission.

5. Non-authentic engine.

6. Replica body

 

Further:

CAR IS AUTOMATICALLY DISQUALIFIED FROM JUDGING IF

NOT EQUIPPED WITH SAFETY GLASS IN ALL WINDOWS. NOTE:

SEE EXCEPTIONS BELOW.

Tinted Glass if normally not factory equipment. Deduct under

Exterior Authenticity Category #39. Synthetic Material to Replace

Fabric Portion of Side Curtains - Deduct under Exterior Authenticity

Category #39.

Minor Cracks Or Chips -1

Large Crack -2

Discolored -2

Torn Or Stained Side Curtains -2

Missing Side Curtain -2

Side Curtains All Missing -3

Top Boot Missing (if Std. equipment) -2

Top Boot in Poor Condition (only if standard equipment) -1

NOTE: Disqualify the car from judging if not equipped with

safety glass in all windshield, side vent windows, and most rear

windows. Safety glass is of three types: laminated, tempered

and wired. Exceptions — Interior glass and Beveled rear window

and wind wing glass need not be safety glass if not so originally

equipped (unless otherwise required by any state or other

regulatory agency.)

Edited December 19, 2018 by Friartuck (see edit history)

[stvaughn]

Friartuck,

 

I don’t have an CCCA car and probably never will but just for my knowledge I would like to know how CCCA verifies safety glass in windows that don’t roll down (windshield) if the owner chooses to install glass without the identification mark? 

 

Steve

[Hudsy Wudsy]

My only little contribution here is to suggest that you ask the glass supplier where his glass is made. If he says China, depart quickly.

[Restorer32]

If you hold a coin up to safety glass it will reflect on the plastic interliner. Plate it will not. So we are in agreement? CCCA takes safety glass seriously AACA does not?

[JACK M]

4 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

If you hold a coin up to safety glass it will reflect on the plastic interliner. Plate it will not. So we are in agreement? CCCA takes safety glass seriously AACA does not?

 

No dog in the fight but the description of 'safety glass' includes laminated, tempered and wired per Friartuck's list above.

I don't think you will get a reflection from the plastic interliner if the glass is tempered.

I have always figured tempered glass to be plate glass.

Edited December 19, 2018 by JACK M (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Tempered glass is nothing like plate glass. Plate breaks into potentially deadly shards while tempered breaks into thousands of small relatively harmless pieces. By law windshields on modern cars must be laminated safety while side windows can be tempered. Tempered glass cannot be cut after tempering. Safety glass can be cut.

[edinmass]

When judging in CCCA the standard operating procedure is placing you pen or pencil on an angle up against thr glass and looking for thr multiple reflection. Works easy, and you don’t have to fish around for anything in your pockets. Usually the disqualification list is done by the team leader before the actual judging begins. 

[Restorer32]

In any case it's certainly good practice to install safety glass whenever possibly. The 1918 Rauch and Lang electric we are restoring will actually be used as transportation around a beach  community in Normandy, France and the owner wanted all the plate glass replaced. Easy with the flat glass. Not so easy with the 4 curved side windows.

[JACK M]

It occurs to me that the down side of laminate on all windows would be that you couldn't get thru it in an emergency.

I do it all the time so it does me no good to keep one of those glass breakers in any of my flat glass cars.

 

Still confused by Friartucks list.

It sounds like laminated or tempered is required. (last paragraph)

Then Ed says these are disqualified before judging even begins.

You guys are conflicting each other.

As for the reflection, does tempered glass show these multiple reflections.

 

 

As I mentioned earlier, no dog in the fight. And there is no way I will ever want to play with you guys, however the banter is interesting.

Funny thing, I had to build some new shelves recently as I have to many trophies.

Yup. cheap plastic racing and street rod dust collectors.

 

I need to say this. I occasionally attend car shows that are hosted by the Oregon State Department of Corrections. Kind of an invite only deal. (however I can get anybody in that can pass a background check)

But I must say that these guys hand out trophies that the population makes themselves. Mostly out of old parts, but they are way cool. I have a couple of Cons Choice awards and one Wardens choice among others.

Really fun stuff. A captive audience.

 

 

[PFitz]

While tempered glass looks like plate glass, using the term "plate glass" in the auto glass business means that it is just regular un-tempered glass and does not qualify as "safety glass". Tempered glass is heat treated after cutting to size so that if it's hit, it shatters into tiny pieces that won't cut your head off.

 

As stated, windshields have to be safety laminate and for a very good reason. Imagine a rock hitting a tempered windshield at 55 mph, with all that air pressure against the glass. It would be like getting hit in the face with a shotgun blast.  

 

BTW, most glass shops don't have the ovens to temper glass so they must send it out when making non-stock tempered glass windows.  And that makes each window  very expensive. One tempered window can cost almost as much as having all the side windows done in safety laminate.   Because of that I only use safety laminate in all the windows of my customer's cars.

 

Paul

[Dave39MD]

Why replace when you can repair with homemade washers and bolts as done by my cars previous owner.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Dave39MD (see edit history)