Buffalowed Bill Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Don't kid yourselves the overseas manufacturers of smaller cars are feeling the pinch too, as Americans show their proclivity towards larger trucks. The difference is that the American buyers have simply askewed some fine US made, or designed sedans in favor of almost anything else. Take a look at the smaller cars parked in any parking lot, anywhere except where the US car manufacturers have a production plant. Ford and now GM are jettisoning some fine automobiles that should have been competitive, but too few Americans found favor with their offerings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plymouthcranbrook Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 10 hours ago, J.H.Boland said: Yep,and our butts are getting bigger too ! What are you trying to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plymouthcranbrook Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 11 hours ago, cheezestaak2000 said: it's deja vu all over again for me. here in delaware we lost both GM and Chrysler plants. that was 15 years ago. there are less than 600,000 people in the state of delaware, so yeah, we felt it a little bit. as of today, both plants are still empty. another good point raised was that the chrysler was a main producer of tanks during world war 2. i guess if another conflict breaks out, we can buy them from china or mexico. why is it a nation that loves cars so much is so stupid about where we get them from? I am not sure we are a Nation that loves cars anymore. Phones yes, cars maybe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Think of the smaller number of drivers getting licenses these days. Maybe part of the problem is plain old lack of sales because of the longer lifespan of vehicles and many people deciding they don't need to drive. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/01/the-decline-of-the-drivers-license/425169/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) In the not to distant future barn finds will be headed for the recycle yards. The big thing will be drawer finds when someone comes across a rare highly collectable mint in box cell phone. Edited November 28, 2018 by Joe in Canada (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick8086 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) No one talks about this car any more.. Toyota Prius I noticed GM is selling car with a 4-Cylinder 2019 Silverado Pickup Will Get A 4-Cylinder Turbo . The 2016 Chevrolet Camaro RS features a turbocharged four-cylinder engine. I think the car sell for only 24k. why spend 35K a plug in car.. The car looks just like the V-8 car.. Edited November 28, 2018 by nick8086 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 The versa from the mid 2000s.............................................! got 33 mpg and they lasted to at least 225k what more could you ask for 13k?????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 No one talks about this car any more.. Toyota Prius at 35k, see my above thread................................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 1 hour ago, mercer09 said: The versa from the mid 2000s.............................................! got 33 mpg and they lasted to at least 225k what more could you ask for 13k?????????????? Isn't that a Korean-sourced Sonic or a Spark? Versa is a Renault-based product from Nissan. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJFord54 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 7 hours ago, Joe in Canada said: In the not to distant future barn finds will be headed for the recycle yards. The big thing will be drawer finds when someone comes across a rare highly collectable mint in box cell phone. Already that way - early bag phones in mint condition worth considerable bucks. Sigh..... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJFord54 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) I have a cabin in Pennsylvania. Monday was opening day of deer season. In the cabins around me the hunters abound. I counted 18 vehicles, of which 15 were big trucks. It's the thing right now. Talked to a dealer who told me that about 85% of these $50,000 trucks were leased. First of all - I can't imagine shelling out say $15,000 for a down-payment and then financing $35,000 for 6 to 7 years. Ouch! Next, I can't imagine shelling out $3500 "acquisition fee" and then spending $350 a month for a payment that allows me to drive it for either 24 or 36 months, and then limit me to 10,000 to 15,000 miles. And, when the lease is done, you start over. (I laugh at my buddy who says: "But it includes oil changes"). And heaven help you if you use it to carry a payload and scratch the inside of the bed - get out your wallet when you turn it in. I just purchased a brand new 2017 left-over Jeep Trailhawk with 3 miles on it that listed for $31,700 and paid $21,900. Even that hurt, but it was acceptable in this day and age. Everywhere you go you hear that the "middle class" has been forgotten. In my opinion, we have caused out own problems. Lease or buy a new truck, buy a second family car, have a cell phone bill at $175 a month, a Spectrum cable bill at $150, buy a home at $300,000, pay the taxes on it, of course you have no money left. Remember the '50s and '60s? The cars were $2500 to $3500, the telephone bill was $18 a month and the house payment was $125. We were happy viewing Chanels 2, 4 and 7 and had no cable bill. It's all relative as income was lower, but I do think our parents restrained themselves a bit more than our generation. We've been headed for this doom and gloom for years and years and I've said it all along that at some point the bubble bursts. So what GM and the rest have done all of these years is simply do the balancing act of keeping costs down (outside labor) so we can continue to "somewhat" afford their vehicles. It is a form of labor negotiations with American workers, and while it hurts, it's not all bad. It creates global wealth, which creates demand for some of our American made products. It's called "Laissiez Faire", or let the market take care of itself. Certainly, there are trade problems that need to be constantly re-worked, but that too is an ongoing back and forth. The current closings are like a pendulum - they'll come back and perhaps this might be a message to workers to go back to the table and renegotiate contracts. Edited November 28, 2018 by AJFord54 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 I very much doubt that anywhere near 85% of $50k trucks are leased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Do not know % but if you run a business in Canada and you lease a truck it is 100% tax deductible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJFord54 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Joe in Canada said: Do not know % but if you run a business in Canada and you lease a truck it is 100% tax deductible. 100% deductible does not mean that it's a wonderful thing. All that means is it is an operating expense. Thus, if you are in a 20% tax bracket, the government picks up that 20% and you pay 80% out of your pocket. Compare that to a tax "credit" where the government picks up the entire thing. I've heard it for years about "tax deductible" and for some reason it seems to make everyone think it's free money. Your gas bill is "tax deductible" along with your rent. Are you going to turn up the heat because it's "tax deductible"? Or perhaps tell your landlord to increase the rent? I don't think so. Additionally, you can purchase a vehicle and it becomes tax deductible as well, the difference being that it is depreciated over say 7 years rather than the 3 year lease. While it is "quicker" in terms of minimizing taxes, the end result is about the same. As far as the 85% of trucks being leased, I can only go by what the Dodge dealer told me. I don't have actual numbers, but I will say that most of these guys looking at a $50,000 truck don't have a big enough pot to afford that payment. Thus, the lease to make them "look good". Note: Just looked it up and one statement says truck leases are up to 68% from 62% while another article says they are about 29%. Who knows? I would tend to think it does depend on the dealership and their mental thinking, along with the brand you are representing. If Dodge has a great lease plan, then they use it to the maximum. I do know that a friend of mine went to work for Honda and complained that they had bad leasing plans in comparison to Ford, thus their dealership didn't lease much. Edited November 28, 2018 by AJFord54 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John348 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 I just bought a new GMC Sierra 2500 Diesel a few months ago, my friend is the sales manager, told me that 85% of the dealership sales are leases. The leasing company is a division of a major bank. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 you are most likely correct 8E just implying the same look is out there at a fraction of the cost. no batteries to replace. good gas mileage and dollar for dollar the Versa nailed it. bought one for my son after graduating from Kings Point..... he beat the Versa to smithereens, much to my dismay. when he sold it, still ran like a top! Maybe the best car Ive ever bought for the $ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungeey Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 13 hours ago, Restorer32 said: I very much doubt that anywhere near 85% of $50k trucks are leased. 11 hours ago, John348 said: I just bought a new GMC Sierra 2500 Diesel a few months ago, my friend is the sales manager, told me that 85% of the dealership sales are leases. The leasing company is a division of a major bank. 85% is a pretty steep figure, but pick ups lease great. SImply put, lease monthly payment is derived from MSRP- discounts/factory incentives- RESIDUAL. How much do 3 yr old pickups with 30-40k miles sell for at lease end? A LOT! They have a very strong residual. How are typical factory incentives on pick ups? Again, A LOT! Leasing keeps the factory running! Lease a pick up and you have a customer again in three years, keeping the turnstyle turning...Steve 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John348 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 2 hours ago, gungeey said: 85% is a pretty steep figure, but pick ups lease great. SImply put, lease monthly payment is derived from MSRP- discounts/factory incentives- RESIDUAL. How much do 3 yr old pickups with 30-40k miles sell for at lease end? A LOT! They have a very strong residual. How are typical factory incentives on pick ups? Again, A LOT! Leasing keeps the factory running! Lease a pick up and you have a customer again in three years, keeping the turnstyle turning...Steve He is Buick GMC and Cadillac, and they do not sell many pick-ups, so that 85% I would say really applies to the SUV and car sales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 (edited) This is getting ugly up here with GM and the union. The union had an add during the Superbowl for Canadians and Americans not to buy cars or trucks made in Mexico. What did that cost? GM closed Holden in Australia and now they get their cars from China. GM Canada will only have one car plant left running on reduced production after they sent the Equinox to Mexico. Plus one Power Train plant running also reduced. GM already sent the truck plant to Mexico from Oshawa and now the car plant is going. The wife and I already sent GM a notice of not buying any more GM vehicles if they leave as many others have. https://globalnews.ca/news/4920702/gm-unifor-super-bowl-ad/ Edited February 4, 2019 by Joe in Canada (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John348 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Joe in Canada said: This is getting ugly up here with GM and the union. The union had an add during the Superbowl for Canadians and Americans not to buy cars or trucks made in Mexico. What did that cost? GM closed Holden in Australia and now they get their cars from China. GM Canada will only have one car plant left running on reduced production after they sent the Equinox to Mexico. Plus one Power Train plant running also reduced. GM already sent the truck plant to Mexico from Oshawa and now the car plant is going. The wife and I already sent GM a notice of not buying any more GM vehicles if they leave as many others have. https://globalnews.ca/news/4920702/gm-unifor-super-bowl-ad/ From the link you posted the cost of the ad is unimportant because it looks like it paid off, and GM is sitting down with the union. Good Job! As union tradesman our newspaper every year would tell us which model cars were made in the US and Canada that we should purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 (edited) All of my grandparents were born in the 19th century. My paternal grandmother was the oldest of 11 children. Every one of us here lost a relative(s) during the flu epidemic of 1918-19. A young widow with an only child born in 1915, my grandmother went to work as a seamstress. She did that for over 40 years. I remember going to ILGWU picnics with her. She never re-married. My dad was raised with his aunts and uncles, one of which was younger than he was. He studied very hard, and got to go to the University of Chicago. His major was mathematics, with a minor in physics. He would have graduated Phi Beta Kappa if not for having to work two jobs. One was in the steam tunnels under the U of C. The other was another great depression job swinging a hammer in a luggage factory for 12 cents an hour. One day the boss man came and told him an official was coming and would be asking employees about their wages. Big boss man said for my dad to tell the fed that he was making 14. Now my dad, unlike myself, was real quick to catch on to things. He realized that the SOB was skimming. Told Big Boss that he would not lie to a g-man. If BBM wanted dad to say 14, he better be paid that. Big didn't like that, but knew the jig was up, and my dad got his raise. His mother kept on working, though her arthritis made this ever more painful. She retired with pension and social security to a one room with murphy bed on an airshaft open to the B-elevated chattering by at 6250 N. Winthrop. She was very happy, and enjoyed her social life with her large family, and the girls she had worked with. She was very generous, and particularly liked cooking and baking for everyone. The room got quite hot in Summer. If we have time together, talking about really good automobile adventures over drinks, remind me to tell you about the time I was traveling from NYC to Seattle with a timber heiress. We spent a night at my grandmother's place, and then spent the next night at her late grandmother's place. I wonder how my grandmother would have fared without ILGWU. - Carl Edited February 4, 2019 by C Carl Finished up (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Now Sting is coming to Oshawa to support the union with a concert. GM left Australia now pulling out of Canada slowly with only 2 small plants left and are wedeling away at the US also. Back in 2011 GM was building 7 out of 10 cars off shore. It will be less than that now again seeing it already sent the Equinox for one to Mexico from Canada. So actually over 3/4 of GM cars are imports. https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2019/02/11/sting-on-why-hes-performing-for-gm-workers-in-oshawa.html?fbclid=IwAR2I5_6DMYVyYAO70FwpKwct2sDOGnDUvzVh5MiNAgvu6e3BOGvPM2r6Wmg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) GM Canada is almost history as Oshawa assembly closed yesterday. With less than 1,000 workers at the power train plant and the other plant down one shift when they sent the work to Mexico last year. After the advertising not to buy GM vehicles made in Mexico the union ran during the last Super Bowl some of the car lots sales were down 35%. GM was extremely upset when that happened with all kinds of threats but could do nothing as all was facts. I will not buy a non North American assembled vehicle. I guess I am a disgruntled customer now. Edited October 25, 2019 by Joe in Canada (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryankazmer Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Joe, I understand your comments and strongly agree that voting with your purchases is the strongest thing a person can do. And going beyond the label and learning where the work is actually done. But Mexican vehicles are North American assembled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) 55 minutes ago, bryankazmer said: But Mexican vehicles are North American assembled. I guess I picked the wrong day of school to skip! Here are two of the Union adds they ran during the Super Bowl . My rant for the day. Now off to Kingston for the weekend of all places (there for the AACA National Vintage Tour in Aug. ) for the ACCCC car club AGM. Held in different city's every year and also went to Philly last year for the AACA AGM. Edited October 25, 2019 by Joe in Canada (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_S_in_Penna Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 I gave the ad posting a "Like." If I could have given it a "Like it a Lot" or a "Triple Like," I would have. Joe, thanks for posting that ad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 What killed Detroit and will eventually finish it off is the unions. Period. They've had the plants shut down for 40 days for no reason at all. Now they get a 9000 dollar bonus for doing it. If that isn't bad enough, the UAW uses money it received from the employees to run high power ads telling people to not purchase their cars. Did it ever occur to these business specialists of the UAW, that revenue gleaned from the plants out of the US is undoubtedly propping up operations at plants inside the US? Monies to afford the exorbitant wages and benefit package US autoworkers receive. I just left Detroit, for good, there is a mass exodus of working class people retiring and leaving Michigan and we are being replaced by minorities. Google it if you question this. Anyone that thinks Detroit is going to make some miraculous comeback could not be more wrong, I've been monitoring that situation first hand for years and seen the job-killing activities and policies up close. Companies are not going to move there and deal with all the nonsense. No reason to do that at all, there is nothing appealing or advantageous about Detroit any longer. GM made one of the bargaining chips of the contract a promise to build the "electric truck" at Hamtramck. Spoiler alert, the electric truck is going to flop and GM knows it, then the plant will be closed, or will remain in very small scale production providing very few jobs. An old machinist friend of mine told me a while back "I worked for five union shops here in Detroit and they all have one thing in common" I asked "What's that?" he said "they are all out of business". -Ron 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 5 hours ago, Joe in Canada said: GM Canada is almost history as Oshawa assembly closed yesterday. What timing!! Immediately after the Federal election! Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trini Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 What is good for General Bull Moose is good for everybody. by Lil Abner. The Saddie Hawkins day race is coming up on November 17 and we have been given the mighty "Good night Irene punch" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trini Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 Buy American to save jobs ? What is made in America these days ? We might as well buy Japanese. Quite a few plants in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 About the closest to reality these days is buy North American. Canada was an important part of manufacturing up to 20 years ago. Then Canadian wages and benefits , environmental regulations , health and safety rules etc. became as profit sapping as their United States equivalents. Gradually what was once contracted to lower cost Canadian plants is now being shifted to Mexico. Profits will be safe for at least another 20 years. One thing we Canadians need to keep in mind is if we want to play the part of a low cost outsourcing partner that there will always be someone who is willing to do the job even cheaper. I am sure the major auto manufacturers keep a sharp look out for anyone who can deliver the required quality for the lowest possible price. Multi nationals have no allegiance to anything other than the corporate bottom line and shareholder return. Greg in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 5 hours ago, 1912Staver said: Multi nationals have no allegiance to anything other than the corporate bottom line and shareholder return. That is 100% correct. Like one old timer told me at the Chrysler plant in Twinsburg Ohio. "In meetings the management tells us we are one big happy family, but I've noticed when business slows down, Daddy puts the kids on the street" -Ron 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Luddy Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 12 hours ago, trini said: Buy American to save jobs ? What is made in America these days ? We might as well buy Japanese. Quite a few plants in Canada. Toyota's new plant in Woodstock Ontario has really helped turn back the local economy. Makes it without a union VS. all the original, now closed Canadian and USA owned union shops. Canada has a health care system that benefits the corporations and a decent public school system that turns out a level of educated workforce that can easily be trained. That helped us for many decades of the last century, but now far cheaper to relocate elsewhere I guess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trini Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 Well, as I said Mammy Yokum has given us the "good night Irene punch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 14 hours ago, trini said: Quite a few plants in Canada GM has 1 stamping plant in Oshawa with 300 employees to close next year. 1 Engine plant with under 1,000 employees and a non union assembly plant in Ingersoll with under 2,500 employees. Ford has one plant in Oakville and Chrysler has one assembly plant in Windsor and none are full production. All gone to Mexico with only a token to say they build cars here. GM has already closed all plants in Australia with the last closing last year and all gone to China. Same will happen in the US in time I would think closing a couple at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John348 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 On 10/25/2019 at 11:29 AM, Locomobile said: What killed Detroit and will eventually finish it off is the unions. Period. They've had the plants shut down for 40 days for no reason at all. Now they get a 9000 dollar bonus for doing it. If that isn't bad enough, the UAW uses money it received from the employees to run high power ads telling people to not purchase their cars. Did it ever occur to these business specialists of the UAW, that revenue gleaned from the plants out of the US is undoubtedly propping up operations at plants inside the US? Monies to afford the exorbitant wages and benefit package US autoworkers receive. I just left Detroit, for good, there is a mass exodus of working class people retiring and leaving Michigan and we are being replaced by minorities. Google it if you question this. Anyone that thinks Detroit is going to make some miraculous comeback could not be more wrong, I've been monitoring that situation first hand for years and seen the job-killing activities and policies up close. Companies are not going to move there and deal with all the nonsense. No reason to do that at all, there is nothing appealing or advantageous about Detroit any longer. GM made one of the bargaining chips of the contract a promise to build the "electric truck" at Hamtramck. Spoiler alert, the electric truck is going to flop and GM knows it, then the plant will be closed, or will remain in very small scale production providing very few jobs. An old machinist friend of mine told me a while back "I worked for five union shops here in Detroit and they all have one thing in common" I asked "What's that?" he said "they are all out of business". -Ron DO YOU HONESTLY THINK IF THE AUTO MANUFACTURERS PAID THEIR EMPLOYEES $5 AN HOUR THE CARS WOULD BE CHEAPER TO THE CONSUMER ? Many plants close because management never reinvested in the factories making them obsolete, everyone working person union or not enjoys many of the things taken for granted that were achieved through organized labor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryankazmer Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 GM at their peak had 62% of the market. Their share now is around 26 - 28% last I saw. You don't think they have to close plants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 6 hours ago, John348 said: DO YOU HONESTLY THINK IF THE AUTO MANUFACTURERS PAID THEIR EMPLOYEES $5 AN HOUR THE CARS WOULD BE CHEAPER TO THE CONSUMER ? GM made 1/2 ton pickups in Oshawa on three shifts until they closed the plant in Oshawa and sent it to Mexico. Seeing GM is paying less than 5$ an hr. now did GM lower the price of trucks. If you check the price actually went up after that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John348 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 42 minutes ago, Joe in Canada said: GM made 1/2 ton pickups in Oshawa on three shifts until they closed the plant in Oshawa and sent it to Mexico. Seeing GM is paying less than 5$ an hr. now did GM lower the price of trucks. If you check the price actually went up after that.. Everyone wants to blame the union, when the greed of the company is the problem 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 On 10/27/2019 at 5:14 PM, John348 said: DO YOU HONESTLY THINK IF THE AUTO MANUFACTURERS PAID THEIR EMPLOYEES $5 AN HOUR THE CARS WOULD BE CHEAPER TO THE CONSUMER ? It never mattered to me what the company I worked for made (or my coworkers), as long as I received the pay I felt I deserved and it was issued on time and the check didn't bounce, beyond that it wasn't any of my business. You misunderstand the free market which fueled the industrial revolution. Do you really think anyone in this day and age would take a job in a plant making $5 an hour? Some of the UAW folks are making 61 dollars per hour plus benefits, with only a high school education. Bully for them if they can do it, but they look rather foolish accusing the big bad company of greed, making that sort of money and their mantra is "whatever they offer, it isn't enough". The taxpayers bailed out GM by buying their stock which incidentally the taxpayers lost 11 billion dollars on, the next time they need a bailout, people should make their voices heard and protest. And there will be a next time. The unions like to take responsibility for anything good that happened to the labor force, most of it is BS. They claimed they ended child labor, they lobbied in 1881 for laws prohibiting any one under 14 working a public job. 14? Since then the states have passed several laws regarding labor relations and the unions had nothing to do with it. They take responsibility for the "weekend", our deeply religious forefathers did not work on Sunday so that is probably BS too. The reason wages are stagnant is not due to lack of representation, it's a flooded labor market, abundance and low demand - free markets at work. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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