1911 - 1927 Locomobile 48 & 38 Gathering Place

[edinmass]

Frank…….looking at pedal wear is NOT a good indicator of mileage. We bought a 1937 Pierce 12 a while back. All original, 66k on the clock. Beautiful factory interior that looked like it was three years old. Well, after doing some homework we discovered the actual mileage was 266,000…….they were using it to pull a trailer! The body and interior looked fantastic, the chassis and engine was beat to all hell. Lesson learned is………pedal wear is an interesting thing to ponder, but it can’t be trusted.

Edited March 8, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

I am impressed that the original interior would look as new after having all the butt time in it that 266,000 would require.  Normal interior would show some serious wear after that much saddle time!  Pierce-Arrow must have used top quality materials.  Ed, how were you able to determine 266000 over the shown 66000?  I am impressed anyway, that a 1930's engine and other mechanics would hold up to the use and mileage you have suggested.  Impressive! My 1935 P-A 1255 did not hold up that well...........at all!

Al

[Bob McAnlis]

1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

Was BC Hartline in the trucking business?

Al

Yes

[alsancle]

I believe this Cunningham is out of the BC Hartline collection.

 

 

[Bob McAnlis]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

I believe this Cunningham is out of the BC Hartline collection.

 

 

No I think that one is a little newer 

[alsfarms]

I am curious about Cunningham. How many years were they built? How many models did they produce? Were they more of a custom automobile or with bodyworks built in house. I am aware of, what I think, was an earlier Cunningham than the one shown in the above picture. The owner of that Cunningham was not that impressed with the mechanics or the mechanical reliability of the car. It did have some nice lines however.

Al

Edited March 8, 2023 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Does the business run by BC Hartline still exist in some form today?

Al

[Bob McAnlis]

10 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Does the business run by BC Hartline still exist in some form today?

Al

No.  It was brought into Roadway.   And the orange that roadway uses is the same orange that BCs trucks used.  bC said that anyways.    He made a lot of money moving tires out of Akron   

[jcrow]

Hartline apparently owned two of many cars. He owned 2 Cunninghams that I know of. One sold at the Bonhams Auction at Simeone's in 2014. It is a 25 or 26 and called a v-6 even though the engine is a v-8.

 

His second Cunningham was sold at the RM Auburn Auction in 2018. It was called a 25 but it is actually a 1924 V-3 (also a V-8 engine). It was probably called a 25 or 26 to get it into the CCCA when the cutoff was 1925. I purchased this car from Steve Babinsky, who is currently doing some work on it.

[jcrow]

PS. Cunningham made every piece of their cars, from body to engine to the bolts that held them together.

[edinmass]

While trying to be polite………I always wanted a Cunningham. Then I drove three of them. Solved all the problems of my desires. Fun and interesting cars, well built. Rare and unusual .

[prewarnut]

The Schutte body tag on the Loco is interesting as Schutte tried to buy Blue Ribbon in Bridgeport but failed. Perhaps there was some association going on prior to this or perhaps the car was sold to a PA customer originally. I would think a Schutte body on a Loco would be quite rare and/or only involve the last year(s) of production.

Coachbuilt has some scant details but interestingly this New Britiain Herald article from 1926 states Schutte was actually in/from Bridgeport so perhaps a local connection was already established.

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by prewarnut (see edit history)

[Walt G]

I have an original sales catalog issued by Schutte most likely dating from the  very late teens. well illustrated with photographs and all profile image views. they made some very attractive 2 seat speedsters that had coachwork that was similar to the Mercer raceabout of the early 1920s.

[alsfarms]

The term "scamy" appears to mostly be fitting. As a follow-up, what exactly was "Blue Ribbon" alluded too in the Newspaper article about Shutte being arrested above?

Al

[alsfarms]

Another question, who was the lead designer for Shutte? He must have had something or someone good on his team to venture into this custom body building arena.

Al

[Walt G]

Foggy on this memory wise but Fleetwood was not far from Lancaster, Pa. where Schutte was located so the design/styling may have come from former Fleetwood workers? Been some time since I looked at that material I have and so many other topics/subjects in between to be absolutely accurate with what I have in period material that mentions, who , what were involved .

[rydersclassics]

Does anyone recognize this Locomobile or know where it is today?

Looks like a boat tail to me but I have been told by people far more knowledgeable than me that none were made.  

It was registered in Ct. 

 

       

[edinmass]

I have seen at least three Schutte bodied Loco’s. All,of them were “late” cars with the 48 chassis.

Edited March 9, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Ed, 

Were the late series Locomobile 48's with Shutte bodies, you refer to, closed or open. It would nice, if privacy is not invaded, to see pictures of such.

Al

[rydersclassics]

Do you think it could be a Shutte body?

What a great car it is.

 

This is posted publicly on FB. 

This person posting these pictures claims he is the young man in the drivers seat, second picture.

Saying the car went from his grandfather to his uncle when he was young and he lost track after that.

 

I had a short exchange with him, he seems real.

Thought I might help him find it if possible.

 

I have nothing to gain in this inquiry except a hope to reconnect a family automobile!

 

 

 

[edinmass]

45 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Ed, 

Were the late series Locomobile 48's with Shutte bodies, you refer to, closed or open. It would nice, if privacy is not invaded, to see pictures of such.

Al

 

One open, two closed. They can usually be told by their lousy lines, and old fashioned interiors. I wouldn’t call them a “plus” when selling them…….or buying them for that matter. I have photos, but can’t share.

[edinmass]

6 minutes ago, rydersclassics said:

Do you think it could be a Shutte body?

What a great car it is.

 

This is posted publicly on FB. 

This person posting these pictures claims he is the young man in the drivers seat, second picture.

Saying the car went from his grandfather to his uncle when he was young and he lost track after that.

 

I had a short exchange with him, he seems real.

Thought I might help him find it if possible.

 

I have nothing to gain in this inquiry except a hope to reconnect a family automobile!

 

 

 

Isn’t that Jack P’s old car? Walt would know.

 

 

[Grimy]

39 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Isn’t that Jack P’s old car? Walt would know.

 

 

I don't think so--here's Jack's gunboat in 2019, now owned by his son Bill.

[George K]

1 hour ago, rydersclassics said:

Do you think it could be a Shutte body?

What a great car it is.

 

This is posted publicly on FB. 

This person posting these pictures claims he is the young man in the drivers seat, second picture.

Saying the car went from his grandfather to his uncle when he was young and he lost track after that.

 

I had a short exchange with him, he seems real.

Thought I might help him find it if possible.

 

I have nothing to gain in this inquiry except a hope to reconnect a family automobile!

 

 

 

That Riker’s own car. Riker’s grandson  had it last I knew. Something’s wrong on my IPad so I’m can’t respond on the forum. Using my phone now. Won’t be participating anymore. Great car.

[charlespetty]

On 3/7/2023 at 4:57 AM, alsancle said:

Gentlemen,    I'm planning on giving this a thorough look over at the Mark Smith auction.  I'm intrigued by the body and the late chassis which is more in my era.   Any thoughts?

 

https://www.goodingco.com/lot/1925-locomobile-model-48-sedan

 

 

 

 

 

This is the same car I commented on in this forum on August 2, 2022.  It was in the Eureka, CA collection of Harvey G. Harper for a number of years and Harvey bought it from old time collector Cebert Holmes.  I drove this car in Eureka in 2012 and was offered it at $35,000.  Harvey's mechanic and collection manager Floyd Myers had recently installed a new clutch and it shifted quite well.  It had a tremendous amount of low end torque and the engine ran very smoothly. When I drove it the front brakes were disconnected and I don't think they were fixed before it was sold in 2015 at auction for $57,000.  I liked the car, but what I didn't like was the Schutte body interior dimensions - for such a big car it seemed very cramped inside.  The interior upholstery was completely original, the paint looked okay from a distance, but looked brushed on up close, the ignition switch was incorrect, but otherwise it was a solid example.  

[edinmass]

I looked at the car when it was for sale by Cebert Homes in Marin county in 2001. Some day I will wright an article about the trip......like I was in the twilight zone. I couldn't remember where and when I saw the car till I saw the name and info posted above. There was a pre WWI Pierce and a big Marmon for sale also. I'm sure I have photos somewhere. It was hard to get a good look at the car in the garage, as it was way too small for the car. It was not running at the time, and if memory serves me, they said it had an engine problem........maybe a piston or wrist pin. 

 

PS- I commented I have seen three Loco's with a Schutte Body......now that I recognise the car as the one I looked at 22 years ago, the number needs to be adjusted down to 2 of them. My bad. After a few hundred thousand cars, they all look the same.

Edited March 11, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[charlespetty]

10 hours ago, edinmass said:

I looked at the car when it was for sale by Cebert Homes in Marin county in 2001. Some day I will wright an article about the trip......like I was in the twilight zone. I couldn't remember where and when I saw the car till I saw the name and info posted above. There was a pre WWI Pierce and a big Marmon for sale also. I'm sure I have photos somewhere. It was hard to get a good look at the car in the garage, as it was way too small for the car. It was not running at the time, and if memory serves me, they said it had an engine problem........maybe a piston or wrist pin. 

 

PS- I commented I have seen three Loco's with a Schutte Body......now that I recognise the car as the one I looked at 22 years ago, the number needs to be adjusted down to 2 of them. My bad. After a few hundred thousand cars, they all look the same.

I noticed that the Mark Smith auction description says it is not running again.  It was running fine when I drove it about three miles in 2012.  One wonders what happened in the interim?  I have also ridden in Harvey Harper's 1918 Locomobile and the 1925 Schutte bodied car was much smoother and quieter.   

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 3/9/2023 at 3:06 AM, edinmass said:

While trying to be polite………I always wanted a Cunningham. Then I drove three of them. Solved all the problems of my desires. Fun and interesting cars, well built. Rare and unusual .

Ed, well said, in a polite way. I can support the need of personal experience a lot: I always wondered why my father preferred the Citroen 11CV traction avant over other cars, even the Mercedes 170V and 170S. In 1978 he finally found a dilapidated 1951 model 11CV and restored it, I was a kid then, and it is for me the average old car ever since. I think you call that a benchmark.

Two years ago I had the chance to drive a 170S, 53 model for a few miles. Everybody praises these cars a lot, and that one was well sorted (much money spent over long periods) and regulary driven. Man, what a disappointment!

[edinmass]

Frank, over the fifty years of driving early cars, I have come to learn that expensive platforms when new are not necessarily good drivers. Please remember I’m talking about cars that are properly sorted and serviced. Too many rare and obscure cars are trailer queens, not properly restored and rebuilt. I have driven three Cunningham’s………I was very enthusiastic about owning one. While I still like them, the overall experience was similar to a handful of other Nickel cars that just seem under powered, heavy, stiff, and sluggish. I’m NOT implying all those apply to the Cunningham or any particular car. What I do like is pursuing “sleeper” platforms. Good example is my 16 Valve White’s. My White’s are exceptionally well built, and fast. That said, they still have some drawbacks. And that statement applies to virtually every chassis/power plant. I will also comment that several “popular” and “legendary “ platforms I have driven and are praised by many people are in my humble opinion…….simply terrible cars. I won’t publicly post them, as dumping on others pride and joy accomplishes nothing. I have also driven terribly maintained and worn out “super cars” that may as well just be left in the garage. More often than not, most cars restored properly are fun to drive………only problem is five percent of the cars in the hobby are actually done well.

Edited March 12, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

 

Fun how history is the same thing over and over again. The friend that sent me to look at this Loco in the LATE 1990's.......he confirmed the date, and has photos in his files from the time I went and looked at it; gave me a call yesterday. We hadn't spoken since before covid, and had an hour on the phone catching up. I plan to stop by and visit him in a few weeks when I head north to the Philly meet. Anyways..........the conversation over time brought back memories of the inspection and visit with the car. Seems hard to believe it was literally half my lifetime ago. He has first hand information on the car by letter given to him by Cebert about the car's history passed along by the original owner..........and retold me the story about the car. Since it's only a recollection and not all positive information, I will not post it here till we get the actual copy in hand. The info was to an extent what I recalled about it........and why he passed on the car. To each his own. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

This just needed to be posted here…….

 

Lots of neat details……….

 

 

[prewarnut]

San Fran? 

...shows where the pinstriping should go on the subject car. I think painting it darker would harmonize with the blind quarters and running boards, etc.

[George K]

[Ittenbacher Frank]

10 hours ago, edinmass said:

This just needed to be posted here…….

 

Lots of neat details……….

 

 

Yes, a great photo. I wonder why you posted it, as the car is equipped with Westinghouse air shocks...

The body with this low roof line and four sliding windows is very unique, I am sure others will comment on this.

I find many interesting details, such as:

- painted radiator, Boyce temperature gauge, tiffany-style headlamps.

- dust covers on the two spare wheels and no standard Locomobile spare wheel carrier, instead a center stand?

- The driver seems to expect many passengers, because he has adjusted the rear suspension much higher than on the front.

- the wheel nuts are black, but the front spring shackle bolts look nickel plated (opposite on my tourer)

- the Locomobile script on the hub caps are shiny with dark background (fully polished on mine, no more paint left)

- the running board seems to be metal-plated (aluminum, same as on my tourer?), not the linoleum as used on other closed cars

- 35x5 tires, beautiful pin-striping on both wheels exactly as on my tourer.

- a short valve stem on the front tire and a much longer one on the rear

...and so on.

[edinmass]

Frank......I agree with all your observations.......and it's why I posted it. The details are great. 

[alsfarms]

The top on this pictured Locomobile certainly looks like an upscale "California Top". I wish Ed could pull an inside shot out of his hat to supplement this side shot.

Al

[edinmass]

 

It's probably built by Springfield Steel Body Corp. 

[alsfarms]

Does anyone have pictures of what the interior of a California type top is finished like?

Al

[ak]

On 1/23/2023 at 10:56 AM, alsfarms said:

Here is a picture of a teens Locomobile 48 on wire wheels. I am personally not familiar with the type wire wheels shown. I know these are not Buffalo but must be Rudge? Could someone reading here please confirm that the shown wire wheels are Rudge and if possible post a picture of the hub as a comparison to Buffalo? Here is the picture 

Al

Alan, 100 mm Rudge

[John Bloom]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:56 AM, alsfarms said:

Here is a picture of a teens Locomobile 48 on wire wheels. I am personally not familiar with the type wire wheels shown. I know these are not Buffalo but must be Rudge? Could someone reading here please confirm that the shown wire wheels are Rudge and if possible post a picture of the hub as a comparison to Buffalo? Here is the picture 

Al

My eye is drawn to a bunch of stuff in the periphery of this photo.  I'd like to put on a pot of coffee and prowl around that garage with the owner and shut up and listen.