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1911 - 1927 Locomobile 48 & 38 Gathering Place


alsfarms

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10 hours ago, George K said:

Thanks to Jorge Amado we clearly see the unusual Rudge singular laced rim dual tire wheel. It must have a lock ring on both sides with a fixed internal ring spaced to allow two tires. Nothing better than clear original images.

That's interesting, I didn't notice the dual tyres. 

 

 

165-WW-411B-017detail.jpg

165-WW-411B-010detail.jpg

Edited by Jorge Amado (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Is anyone aware of any existing wheels of this type or are they relegated simply to history now?

Al

   I was wondering the same and when I mentioned this earlier under the Pershing topic I was curious about the geometry (but didn't bring this up). The close-up shows 4 rows of spokes with a slightly concave outward appearance to the last row. I wonder how good the lateral loading or ability to resist lateral forces is. On wheels on a Cadillac or RR as example the outer spokes are markedly canted inwards from the center hub forming a triangular or perhaps diamond shaped tension in a head-on cross section.

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1 hour ago, prewarnut said:

   I was wondering the same and when I mentioned this earlier under the Pershing topic I was curious about the geometry (but didn't bring this up). The close-up shows 4 rows of spokes with a slightly concave outward appearance to the last row. I wonder how good the lateral loading or ability to resist lateral forces is. On wheels on a Cadillac or RR as example the outer spokes are markedly canted inwards from the center hub forming a triangular or perhaps diamond shaped tension in a head-on cross section.

The wheels were built under Rudge Whitworth license by Marlin Rockwell. Some data from SAE tests. Just a quick look at loading problems but wire wheel are still used today. Those dual rim were just a special order and became a blip in time.3DC453FC-CAD2-4F1E-AF47-5DC97387F328.jpeg.d72c670bde90cedab07ba02c77f879a4.jpeg157DF1B1-DB48-4753-AE67-B1DC12553652.jpeg.36144d73a1541dea45743221f656729b.jpeg56917D51-E243-44E9-9AB6-D01BC96CBAB2.jpeg.1ed6ec2730e6615a17cfb83e6af522b4.jpeg

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George, Hi thanks for that. It is great that all sort of testing was done. The wires surely hold up much better. This doesn't speak to the geometry question but since there is such a huge margin of improvement over wooden spoked wheels I guess we can assume that with the Locomobile's rear double arrangement on the Overseas's even if not arranged with the most favorable geometry they would still perform better than an artillery wheel.

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3 hours ago, prewarnut said:

George, Hi thanks for that. It is great that all sort of testing was done. The wires surely hold up much better. This doesn't speak to the geometry question but since there is such a huge margin of improvement over wooden spoked wheels I guess we can assume that with the Locomobile's rear double arrangement on the Overseas's even if not arranged with the most favorable geometry they would still perform better than an artillery wheel.

Just a reminder of an already posted explanation of the field use issues. This problem is more indicative of the dual wire wheel demise.010903DD-59BC-46A1-9617-7869EA66B53C.jpeg.3352903c47dbae6c822a5800c5dae973.jpeg

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On 2/7/2022 at 10:00 AM, alsancle said:

 

I don't know the country, but I know it was someone's backyard in that country.

It’s back. This time it appeared at the Ironstone Concours d’Elegance with what I believe is the owners name. Second photo if of a car that appears to have similar traits. Would like to know what the real story is.79D6CB6B-7003-45A0-9C08-BCBD90569194.jpeg.e52afab030ada12fe800a73c60150ef4.jpegB2BAA032-5634-458B-9360-2FB6DEA28C7B.jpeg.2e774a05c8354b001b5502328779a9e1.jpeg

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Yes

 

It feels like a good time to say this.

 

For Me Locomobiles, Duesenberg, Packard, Stutz, Pierce, Marmon, Cadillac etc.. are all classic American Rolling Art and always will be.

 

The montage of auction cars each are example of fine art that were and continue to be loved by owners, some had lots of cash other invested blood sweat and tears to move these automobiles forward and I "hope" keep the dreams alive in a time when to many of us are ageing out. 

 

This red Speedster grabs you.

 

If it drives onto any show field it will draw a crowd.

It won't matter if it's a Concourse, Muscle Car, Hot Rod, Cruse Night, TROG or Hershey event, they will come and the youngest will be in awe.

Young people may see these automobiles on there cell phones, computers, and television but it's not the same is it? The Metaverse will never (in our lifetimes) bring that feeling..... can we?   

 

When great cars were parts cars greater cars were made better. 

Parts, and parts cars can be great cars with enough work but someone has to want to do that work. 

 

I have saved a couple and hope to save a couple more before I run out of time, building a Speedster is one of my dreams and I now have the stuff to do it. 

Hmmmm..... there are a couple of savable cool cars mixed in this pile, anyone else want a project car?  

 

  

      image.jpeg.80dbdd2ebda185238f8e99521c350aa7.jpeg

 

     

 

KIMG1268.JPG

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4-875 mile loaded trips later!

Many piles.

 

4 frames. 1 with air ride

4 rear axles

4 front axles

lots of springs

most of 3 model 48 engines, 1 more crank case and crank shaft

1 rough model 38 engine

2 transmissions

3 complete steering coulombs with steering wheels

1 Limousine Body, very nice shape!

 

1 broken down aluminum touring car body, a second cowl all rough

2 complete windshields additional pairs of stations

2 sets of standard style steel fenders  

1 set rough standard steel fenders

1 pair nice aluminum custom front fenders

multiple pairs of head lights a variety of styles

 

and a partridge in a pair tree

Not a complete list. 

 

All kidding  aside this was a lot to bite off and I feel as though I have taken on the foster care of a significant pile hoping to find homes for the parts I don't need for my own Speedster project.

 

 

image.jpeg.bcef46b1c0f88389f931d5d6d4d9694a.jpegimage.jpeg.2b72e1d2570b248436ec30b0aab4503f.jpegimage.jpeg.1effb5e822adb26b1eb24561d8893062.jpegimage.jpeg.fb636a2ff0a7ad6cc17758b7599b87ed.jpegimage.jpeg.24e7ab24d858adc2ba68af973473fbee.jpeg

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Good to know that parts are available. I suggest you use the latest engine as it is refined with better features of balanced crank , better oiling resulting in more hp. Since it will be a confection check your rear end gear ratio. Hopefully you have one in the 3:1 range. All things are possible given time and $. There is a speedster forum that could be of some help. Good luck.6CE55B0C-F6E4-4384-8C17-3FE024F26D27.jpeg.708ae6504c813f87e478e4b48cee924e.jpeg1D561B34-C168-411E-98EC-4DBCF58C0D0A.jpeg.53ea03071b8abd72d20f7396aeb6c912.jpeg

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That is a beautiful thing!

 

Still learning about the evolution of these engines from the engine related exchanges and reading whatever I find.

Not clear yet what is interchangeable through the years of manufacture.

 

Thanks for the heads up regarding the speedster forum, have been checking it out regularly for quite a while.

 

I will check gear ratios, 3:1 would be great if there is one here.

 

As for the time and $, so much to do and so little time!

Happily there is a lot of good stuff to work with, the best of which looks to be very low mileage so lot's of labor should go pretty far.

 

Your well wishes guidance and these forums are much appreciated.

 

 

 

       

   

   

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I like to ask a question regarding the rear axle gear ratio and how to change it: Did anybody consider already to modify a gear-set from a commercial vehicle for the use in a Loco rear axle?

Using something from modern passenger cars could be difficult because they are usually too small and often have hypoid gears. A vehicle with the input shaft on the same height as the drive shafts (diff-center) shall be useful. Maybe a vehicle with planetary reduction in the wheels, because then the reduction ratio at the diff is usually lower. The desired ratio of 2.94:1 or 3.2:1 is not common with high speed engines and small wheels.  Machining the gears or adding spacers, in order to get the clearance adjusted, could be a solution to make the gears fit to Loco housing dimensions? At least cheaper than manufacturing one special set. Any thoughts?

diff lehr.jpg

diff 4.jpg

diff 5.jpg

72 (2).jpg

73 (2).jpg

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
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Dealt with this issue many times. Years ago I just had gear shops build them. Setup of gear hobbling machinery for one set of gears is the issue. Once the setup is in place the machines can knock out many sets. You will see people advertising for other collectors to join these efforts to produce 10 or more sets to spread the costs out. 

The problem with using mass produced gear sets is accumulating the engineering data to locate possible cross over gears. Next issue is the change from bevel gear to spiral bevel gear not being difficult but hypoid spiral bevel gear use in modern vehicles are out. Given your skill set I’m sure you’re the man for the job.CC5533E4-76C1-411B-A5B3-4FA252797281.jpeg.a000a5ab859021e9721510b3e0e00e21.jpeg

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I will digress on the current conversation about potential rear axle gear replacements.  More information on this subject should be warmly received as we all would like to make improvements in the drivablility of our early Locomobile automobiles.  One thought.....it is or could be an adaption but a drive-line mid-ship mounted OD unit which is certainly a possibility.  Something like a Mitchell or similar.  On another subject, George pointed out several early Locomobile bits of literary information that had recently been placed on EBAY for public auction.  I did watch and was the only bidder on the Locomobile series 1900 parts manual, printed after midyear 1924.  I have received this manual and am happy with this purchase....thanks George.  Added in the back of the parts listing is a 1928 update parts and price list.  It would sure be nice if I could look up a part number and contact one of the regional Locomobile offices and get my Locomobile parts needs ordered.  (What a dream)!  This manual has lots of information that is not helpful but it does have many last series 48 pictures and description of the latest design improvements put into the muscular model 48 Locomobile.  As said before, I am happy to purchase this parts manual.

Al

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2 hours ago, alsfarms said:

I will digress on the current conversation about potential rear axle gear replacements.  More information on this subject should be warmly received as we all would like to make improvements in the drivablility of our early Locomobile automobiles.  One thought.....it is or could be an adaption but a drive-line mid-ship mounted OD unit which is certainly a possibility.  Something like a Mitchell or similar.  On another subject, George pointed out several early Locomobile bits of literary information that had recently been placed on EBAY for public auction.  I did watch and was the only bidder on the Locomobile series 1900 parts manual, printed after midyear 1924.  I have received this manual and am happy with this purchase....thanks George.  Added in the back of the parts listing is a 1928 update parts and price list.  It would sure be nice if I could look up a part number and contact one of the regional Locomobile offices and get my Locomobile parts needs ordered.  (What a dream)!  This manual has lots of information that is not helpful but it does have many last series 48 pictures and description of the latest design improvements put into the muscular model 48 Locomobile.  As said before, I am happy to purchase this parts manual.

Al

...just to add: I purchased the series 7 manual and parts book, also thanks to George from my side!

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On 11/14/2022 at 4:32 PM, George K said:

Dealt with this issue many times. Years ago I just had gear shops build them. Setup of gear hobbling machinery for one set of gears is the issue. Once the setup is in place the machines can knock out many sets. You will see people advertising for other collectors to join these efforts to produce 10 or more sets to spread the costs out. 

The problem with using mass produced gear sets is accumulating the engineering data to locate possible cross over gears. Next issue is the change from bevel gear to spiral bevel gear not being difficult but hypoid spiral bevel gear use in modern vehicles are out. Given your skill set I’m sure you’re the man for the job.CC5533E4-76C1-411B-A5B3-4FA252797281.jpeg.a000a5ab859021e9721510b3e0e00e21.jpeg

Dear George, thanks for your input. You are right, producing one set only, which is specially made for the Loco, is for sure out of question. Producing ten sets, hoping to find the other 9 owners who like to take the challenging effort of changing the ratio is also not very likely. Therefore I asked for the idea to find an existing gear set which can be modified. I am sure this is available somewhere, perhaps on a scrapyard, but how to find it? Spiral bevel gears are the target, as you see on your 3 sketches and above photos. These photos are not from my car but from another Loco, still using the original gears.

I believe that machining an existing set could be possible because the Loco pinion gear is not one piece with the pinion shaft (input shaft), but the gear is bolted to the shaft, using a key on a cylindrical (not conical) seat. Adjustment is made with two nuts, one before and one after the gear. Comparing to later one-piece-designs, this could be easier in the way that you don't need to consider the shaft, just use the original one, as well as the bearings.

The large bevel gear must be machined according to the Locomobile's differential case. Also this should be possible, either by removing material or using a spacer. But is it worth the effort?

I was only asking because of curiosity. I am not sure if such a change would make much sense in that hilly region where I live. I like to consider: Comparing to contemporary cars, the Loco was already a fast car with 4 wide-spread gears. Even today you can cope with normal traffic on country roads with the 3.8-ratio, and use the highway occasionally. It is really cool to have the power to drive in high gear nearly everywhere. With lower ratios this hill climbing capacity is reduced.

One other question: There is an advertisement that the Pershing-Locomobile was tested at 85 mph. Does anybody know which ratio they used for this car and application?

p31 Chicago_Tribune_Tue__Jun_3__1919_-e1543805830889-717x1024.jpg

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On 11/15/2022 at 2:30 PM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Dear George, thanks for your input. You are right, producing one set only, which is specially made for the Loco, is for sure out of question. Producing ten sets, hoping to find the other 9 owners who like to take the challenging effort of changing the ratio is also not very likely. Therefore I asked for the idea to find an existing gear set which can be modified. I am sure this is available somewhere, perhaps on a scrapyard, but how to find it? Spiral bevel gears are the target, as you see on your 3 sketches and above photos. These photos are not from my car but from another Loco, still using the original gears.

I believe that machining an existing set could be possible because the Loco pinion gear is not one piece with the pinion shaft (input shaft), but the gear is bolted to the shaft, using a key on a cylindrical (not conical) seat. Adjustment is made with two nuts, one before and one after the gear. Comparing to later one-piece-designs, this could be easier in the way that you don't need to consider the shaft, just use the original one, as well as the bearings.

The large bevel gear must be machined according to the Locomobile's differential case. Also this should be possible, either by removing material or using a spacer. But is it worth the effort?

I was only asking because of curiosity. I am not sure if such a change would make much sense in that hilly region where I live. I like to consider: Comparing to contemporary cars, the Loco was already a fast car with 4 wide-spread gears. Even today you can cope with normal traffic on country roads with the 3.8-ratio, and use the highway occasionally. It is really cool to have the power to drive in high gear nearly everywhere. With lower ratios this hill climbing capacity is reduced.

One other question: There is an advertisement that the Pershing-Locomobile was tested at 85 mph. Does anybody know which ratio they used for this car and application?

p31 Chicago_Tribune_Tue__Jun_3__1919_-e1543805830889-717x1024.jpg

Thought this is interesting.C8963BBF-2657-434E-982C-6EC7477F358A.jpeg.7b76181db5a45ba95619705c5893697c.jpeg

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That is interesting! I had no idea the engineering mind of Roos, who was influencial at Locomobile, had such a heavy hand in the development of the Military Jeep that still has a serious following to this day.  I have two CJ2a Jeeps and never knew that my Jeep interest and Locomobile interest had such a kinship!

Al

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The east has had a nice winter storm so I don't imagine if you own a Locomobile and live in Buffalo that you will take out the Locomobile for a Thanksgiving Day drive. However, if you live in other more temperate areas, do you plan to take your Locomobile out for a Holiday spin?  If you do post a picture here for us all to share your pleasant moment.

Al

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On 7/31/2022 at 9:04 AM, George K said:

If the race horse comparison were true every horse with great bloodlines would win. The difference is spirit. Riker went home and kept this example of his work. 1919 48 Gunboat Roadster. That’s when the spirit left. Past that to me is just running on empty. Riker’s son with his wife 1968.F8E8BA2C-1DD5-4E54-93CC-6D58EF7AD06D.jpeg.6e94e09be5c566ec743c7d9f90f9e7c0.jpeg

 

A "raceabout roadster" 

 

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