VW4X4 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 Warning: anyone using stainless steel to sleeve wheel cylinder! One major issue I have is dis-similar metals. My wheel cylinders were all sleeved with stainless steel (SS). The pistons in them are all Aluminum (AL). Turns out if you don't use the vehicle much, within a few months the wheel cylinders are stuck, because of corrosion. This is a major issue between raw AL and SS. This is exactly why a lot more stainless is not used in modern vehicles today. I'm trying to find a simple solution for this. The work was done by Applied Hydraulics. I wish Applied Hydraulics would have warned me about this . They did a good job , and at very reasonable prices but missed the boat on this problem. Anyone have a simple solution to my AL/SS corrosion problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 Yes, this has been brought up before. That would be "Apple Hydraulics". Wish I had the answer other than driving the vehicle more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VW4X4 Posted December 23, 2017 Author Share Posted December 23, 2017 28 minutes ago, keiser31 said: Ok, the place I had mine done is now called: http://brakeandequipment.com/ Use to be Allied Hydraulic...... Not the same place.... Yes, this has been brought up before. That would be "Apple Hydraulics". Wish I had the answer other than driving the vehicle more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 The problem here is that you are trading regular corrosion and pitting for galvanic corrosion. Cast iron and aluminum are relatively compatible from a galvanic standpoint, but obviously the cast iron cylinder rusts and pits easily from any moisture in the brake fluid. Stainless and aluminum are more reactive (specifically, the stainless increases the galvanic corrosion in the aluminum) but the stainless sleeve won't rust and pit like the cast iron. Unfortunately, brass sleeves with aluminum pistons are even worse from a galvanic potential. Of course, the solution is to ensure there is no moisture in the brake fluid. Naturally this is difficult, especially with DOT3 fluid. In the aeospace world we have a similar problem when we use stainless fasteners in aluminum parts. In that case, we typically use fasteners that have an aluminum coating on them. This unfortunately won't work for brake cylinder sleeves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VW4X4 Posted December 23, 2017 Author Share Posted December 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, joe_padavano said: Joe, Thank for the info. I'm slowly convincing myself that the only good solution is making new pistons out of some other material. If I use stainless, I think I might run the risk of gaulding. If I use plain CR steel, I could have the new piston plated with a yellow Iridite or a znic Chromate treatment. Not sure what would be best here, but one thing for sure this is, its not going to be cheap or easy, and I for like to find someone who knows more about this than I do in order not be wasting any more money. The problem here is that you are trading regular corrosion and pitting for galvanic corrosion. Cast iron and aluminum are relatively compatible from a galvanic standpoint, but obviously the cast iron cylinder rusts and pits easily from any moisture in the brake fluid. Stainless and aluminum are more reactive (specifically, the stainless increases the galvanic corrosion in the aluminum) but the stainless sleeve won't rust and pit like the cast iron. Unfortunately, brass sleeves with aluminum pistons are even worse from a galvanic potential. Of course, the solution is to ensure there is no moisture in the brake fluid. Naturally this is difficult, especially with DOT3 fluid. In the aeospace world we have a similar problem when we use stainless fasteners in aluminum parts. In that case, we typically use fasteners that have an aluminum coating on them. This unfortunately won't work for brake cylinder sleeves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 Let me guess, you did not fill the fresh system with DOT5? I have not seen this effect on my cars with SS sleeves, aluminum pistons and DOT 5. Have others noticed this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 1 hour ago, VW4X4 said: Gotcha. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 (edited) Did you use brake assembly lube ? I've always had Apple sleeve with brass. However, the same stuck pistons can happen with brass sleeved cylinders. It just takes longer. And to an even slower extent, the aluminum can corrode and stick to the cast iron bores of new wheel cylinders. The way to prevent that is first coating the clean bores and pistons with brake assembly lube. I use EIS brand. Whatever is in it prevents corrosion of the aluminum pistons. Since I learned of that many years ago, not one has seized since. BTW, brake assembly lube is not the same lube designed for the rubber parts, which won't prevent piston corrosion. However, brake assembly lube can be used on the rubber parts without harm. And yes, you should first use assembly lube even with DOT 5. Paul Edited December 24, 2017 by PFitz (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 My experience is with brass sleeves. The aluminium corrodes because of the proximity of the brass, which contains copper. It is galvanic corrosion. It still occurs with the original cast cylinders, but much more slowly because cast iron is further up the galvanic series than brass and stainless steel. Some SS is above brass in the galvanic series, but most is below it. So whether SS sleeves are worse than Brass depends on which type was used for the sleeve. I always assemble with rubber grease. They still corrode over a few months if I don't drive it. It is the presence of oxygen and an electrolyte (water) that promotes the corrosion so I suppose I am being too stingy on the grease! DOT 4 brake fluid is less hydroscopic than DOT 3. DOT 5.1 is less hydroscopic than DOT 4. DOT 5 (silicon) is not hydroscopic at all and is not compatible with DOT 3, 4 or 5.1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 The rubber grease is just for preserving the rubber parts of a brake system, but does not prevent the aluminum corrosion that brake assembly lubes do prevent. If you want to use just one, then use the assembly lube for pistons, bores, and the rubber parts. EIS, Permatex, and Bendix each make a brake assembly lube that at least one of those brands you can get at most autoparts stores, or online suppliers. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 My 69 Vette calipers were sleeved with SS at least 25 years ago. Still has the same DOT 5 fluid in the system from then. Never a problem. Dot 3 is spawn of the devil.................Bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 6 hours ago, PFitz said: EIS, Permatex, and Bendix each make a brake assembly lube that at least one of those brands you can get at most autoparts stores, or online suppliers. Thanks Paul. I was working with advice given to me many years ago by someone who I cannot remember. Clearly there are (and probably were way back then) better alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 I liken DOT-3 to lacquer paint and leather seals ; yesterdays technology. I use Brake and Equipment Warehouse in Minneapolis MN. They are keenly aware of the different types of stainless steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 DOT 5 is not hygroscopic the way DOT 3 is and thus moisture is not retained, so galvanic corrosion is less likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vila Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 VW4X4. Did you tell them the pistons were aluminum before having the SS sleeving done or did you just tell them to sleeve them with stainless steel with no other input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 Is my thinking wrong here; if the pistons have brake fluid running by them the seals are leaking and there is a bigger problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Curti said: Is my thinking wrong here; if the pistons have brake fluid running by them the seals are leaking and there is a bigger problem. Yes, if the seals become worn. Or scored by abrasive that was left in the pistons if they were cleaned with sand paper or emery cloth. Or, if the bores are not coated with assembly lube and they become corrosion pitted, then as the brake lining wears and the piston and cup move toward the end of the bores to take up wear, the cup lip could move to pitted areas of the bore and then leak. When brake fluid leaks past the cup lip, if enough leaks past it will bulge the rubber dust boots. If it becomes alot of fluid trapped in the boot end of the cylinders it can pop the edge of the dust boots off the cylinder and you'll have brake fluid running down onto the drum and linings. Paul Edited December 24, 2017 by PFitz (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Saxton Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 (edited) Lancia Aurelias of the 1950s were made with bronze pistons in aluminium bores. The only problem that I have ever had is unavailability of Metric seal sizes to suit. I have had the bores all sleeved with stainless to available inch standard, for instance, 25 emu size is now one inch. I made new bronze pistons to suit the one inch stainless bores. Diameter of pistons is 3 thou less than the bore size. (The thousandth of an inch is the most useful unit of measurement for fits and tolerances. Metric measurements have specific usefulness for scientific purposes. Essentially, you use units of measurement that bear a sensible relationship to what you are dealing with. In the early 1970s, the most ignorant, despotic lawyer politician in our history made law that Australia should convert from imperial to his hero Napoleon's metric measurement system, without referendum. I derisively refer to millimetres as ethnic measurement units, or emus; emus being large flightless birds who function more on instinct than cognitive ability.) Edited December 27, 2017 by Ivan Saxton sleep deprivation (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Off topic but ....Interesting take on metrication. We did the same thing is about 1972. If you are working in decimal inches, they are easy. But most people work in inches and fractions so arithmetic becomes pain in the tripe. Another thing, in this country and perhaps in yours, land titles were measured in links. Areas were in acres, perches, poles etc. (aaaaarrrggghhh!) Engineering surveys were in feet. What a pain it was. So when we went metric, us surveyors had ingrained in our heads some conversion factors: 1 link = 0.201168 m = 7.92 inches. 1 foot = 0.3048 m. It is surely a lot easier if it is all in the one unit, decimal metres. But I often still say something is about 4" wide or whatever, rather than 100 mm or 10 cm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 21 hours ago, Spinneyhill said: Off topic but ....Interesting take on metrication. We did the same thing is about 1972. If you are working in decimal inches, they are easy. But most people work in inches and fractions so arithmetic becomes pain in the tripe. Another thing, in this country and perhaps in yours, land titles were measured in links. Areas were in acres, perches, poles etc. (aaaaarrrggghhh!) Engineering surveys were in feet. What a pain it was. So when we went metric, us surveyors had ingrained in our heads some conversion factors: 1 link = 0.201168 m = 7.92 inches. 1 foot = 0.3048 m. It is surely a lot easier if it is all in the one unit, decimal metres. But I often still say something is about 4" wide or whatever, rather than 100 mm or 10 cm. I understand the floating between worlds, Metric or English. Much of the car business is metric, but get measurements in both systems and are constantly converting. I have gotten pretty good at converting both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 On 27/12/2017 at 11:31 AM, Ivan Saxton said: In the early 1970s, the most ignorant, despotic lawyer politician in our history made law that Australia should convert from imperial to his hero Napoleon's metric measurement system, without referendum. Hmmm. The metric system was not Napoleon's. " Napoleon himself ridiculed the metric system, but as an able administrator, recognised the value of a sound basis for a system of measurement..." See the Wikipedia article on History of the Metric System. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmoney Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 Why not get new pistons machined out of stainless steel? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 A few decades ago they were going to convert the USA to metric. Didn't happen. Anybody remember the "Metric Ain't American" bumper stickers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 23 minutes ago, JACK M said: A few decades ago they were going to convert the USA to metric. Didn't happen. Anybody remember the "Metric Ain't American" bumper stickers? Don’t throw away your metric wrenches, SAE is still alive but metric is out there too in big numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 2 hours ago, JACK M said: A few decades ago they were going to convert the USA to metric. Didn't happen. Worked on any "American" vehicles built in the last 20 years or so? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 3 hours ago, oldmoney said: Why not get new pistons machined out of stainless steel? Sounds like a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 The pistons do not hold any fluid back. They only serve to push on the rubber seals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 (edited) Did you coat the pistons, bores, and cups with brake assembly lube before putting them together ? I do that with all brake system rebuilding, sleeved, or new cast iron wheel cylinders. I can't speak for stainless sleeves, because I've never used anything but brass sleeves on all my customer's cars. I have not had any problems with aluminum pistons reacting with brass sleeved master or wheel cylinders, and I don't use DOT 5. Paul Edited May 16, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 21 hours ago, joe_padavano said: Worked on any "American" vehicles built in the last 20 years or so? Nope. But I have metric and Wentworth tools that don't get used much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 Whitworth rather than Wentworth? I have some of them too, from my father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 Probably, I never can remember that stuff. But I do know they are for the British vehicles that I see on occasion. Thanks for the correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Henderson Posted May 19, 2019 Share Posted May 19, 2019 On 5/15/2019 at 12:46 PM, JACK M said: A few decades ago they were going to convert the USA to metric. Didn't happen. Anybody remember the "Metric Ain't American" bumper stickers? Sorry, it's not gone away, except for the gas Shell was selling by the litre in Vienna, Va. at the start of the craze. I'm told that building permits in Fairfax County require metric dimensions, after all, who knows what A 2 x 4 is.....? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted May 19, 2019 Share Posted May 19, 2019 OK, I am working on a 1971 Harley Davidson three wheel golf cart. It has a starter generator that runs and charges in both directions. As does the 2 cycle engine. That SG part is beyond me, but right after I was happy with the running condition it quit cranking. When the solenoid activates there is voltage at all four posts on that unit, Granted this is with everything hooked up and in fact two of the terminals are getting voltage from the reversing switch. So much for that. As I said, beyond me. I started to say that the nuts on all of those terminals on the starter generator unit are 10 mm. Y'all know what AMF is right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 American Machine and Foundry! But that solenoid was probably sourced form the east. 10 mm nuts are the typical nut on 6 mm x 1.00 pitch bolts. I see them all the time on large electronics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 (edited) Turns out that the reversing switch had lost its ground. Stopped by a place called "Walz Auto" in Salem. Its a motor shop. Nice guy that checked the unit for me, to my dismay it checked good. Then he gave me a schematic that he had on file and explained a couple of things to look for. The light in my brain went on as he could explain so that even I could understand. Charged me five bucks and earned a new customer. Any body out there that would like to own a running HD gc? Even come with a second cart for parts. I would bet that the solenoid is the same as the old Ford tractors. But yes, the starter/generator is Asian from new. Edited May 21, 2019 by JACK M (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broker-len Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 had two brake systems sleeved in brass by apple few years ago did not use anything in assembling did not know !!!!! no problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trini Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 I think in around 1987 Chrysler had problems with the front disc brakes pistons sticking . The problem was the chrome on the pistons was bubbling. The problem was corrected by replacing the pistons with some sort of material like phenolic or something like that. It was black in colour and hard. May be just the type of material needed to make pistons for stainless inserts on cylinders. Just my thought.. Or may be plain stainless steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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