JUDGING QUESTION

[bobg1951chevy]

I have  been an AACA member for a short time, certainly do not know much, if anything at all, about AACA Judging, .

I own a 1969 Corvair 500 in showroom condition, with 28,000 miles.

In 2018,  I would like to attend AACA events  and have my Corvair judged.

The car is a survivor, not restored.

It is bone stock,  except for 13 inch Firestone radials.

What is the judging position that AACA will take, with  the radials being on the car, instead of the bias belted tires ?

 

 

[Frantz]

Itll hurt it quite a bit and likely knock it down a place. We take max points for each tire includimg the spare. Grab a spare set of wheels and tires for show day! Download the judgimg guidelines and look at a score card and judge the whole thing yourself and you shouldnt have many surprises. Sweet car!

[Frantz]

Also consider HPOF class. Most survivors really belong there. A special car like yours will struggle against a fresh restoration and id rather see you rewarded for origionality than to start changing things, beyond the tires, chasing points.

[trimacar]

I'd put it in the regular class, not HPOF.  I have a friend who put an original, unrestored 20's car in the regular class, and although many were critical of his doing so, the car still won an award.  That Corvair looks clean enough to do well in judging.  At least you'd be among other Corvairs, and not lost in the jumble of HPOF.  I feel it's good to have the unrestored next to the restored, always interesting to see differences.

[Restorer32]

Agreed.

 

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

And just to clarify, I believe the radial tires would be

a substantial knock-down in points in BOTH the 

judged class and in the Historic Preservation (HPOF) class.

 

It would be nice if cars were eligible for awards in the

judged classes and the HPOF class simultaneously.

Imagine a car like this getting certified as an original in HPOF,

then going to the judged classes at subsequent shows and

achieving an AACA Senior!  While I think that's not possible

with current rules, it would show that an original car is

extraordinarily well preserved.

[MCHinson]

I have not seen it in writing yet, but I heard from someone that I trust that the deduction for tires will be decreased in the new judging guidelines for 2018. I guess it is just a rumor now, but I trust the guy I heard it from. If this is correct, it would make it much easier to receive an award with inauthentic radial tires. 

[Vila]

If the car looks as good as seen in the photo I would show it in class and yes changing the tires will save you some points.

 

If it was me, I would show it in class.

 

My 1984 BMW 633 is all original, except tires and exhaust system, with 130,000 miles and I have received awards up to 1st Senior in class judging at Hershey and a Grand National at Williamport PA in 2016.  That said, don't let the class judging scare you away from showing your all original Corvair in class. 

 

I show my 1933 Chevrolet in HPOF and do not like the fact that HPOF cars are separated from similar cars like when you show your car in class.  As you know, AACA groups all other HPOF vehicles independent of make or year.  For that reason, I very rarely show this car at AACA meets.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Vila (see edit history)

[danleblanc]

I had an unrestored original 1961 Cadillac Fleetwood Special that pulled a first junior at Hershey in 2013 and first senior at Hershey in 2015.  Yes, it can be done.  Try it.  What's the worst that could happen?  You have a good time and meet new friends despite not winning an award.  The award is just gravy for me.

[Joe in Canada]

4 hours ago, Frantz said:

Itll hurt it quite a bit and likely knock it down a place. We take max points for each tire includimg the spare. Grab a spare set of wheels and tires for show day! Download the judgimg guidelines and look at a score card and judge the whole thing yourself and you shouldnt have many surprises. Sweet car!

I do not think you should knock each tire but as a group reduction. You would  not count the number of paint flaws and multiply that so why tires.  You can not say tires are an individual number seeing you would not drive down the HI way with mixed tires as you may end up in the ditch. You can only have one matched set on the car radial or bias ply.

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, Vila said:

and do not like the fact that HPOF cars are separated from similar cars like when you show your car in class.

 

I have seen that. One kind of looses continuity in the jumble. You walk around and whatever is shiny catches your eye.

[Terry Wiegand]

Since this car is a 1969 model, I'm just wondering if this wasn't about the time that the new vehicles starting coming out with radial tires from the factory.  Just askin'.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Frantz]

1 hour ago, Joe in Canada said:

I do not think you should knock each tire but as a group reduction. You would  not count the number of paint flaws and multiply that so why tires.  You can not say tires are an individual number seeing you would not drive down the HI way with mixed tires as you may end up in the ditch. You can only have one matched set on the car radial or bias ply.

I don't write the rules, I just judge by them. They are scored 5 points each, including the spare, and non original requires max deduction. There isn't any room for discretion here under current rules. You might not count the number of paint flaws, but each panel could lose points for paint flaws... likewise, a non-factory type panel is max deduction per panel.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Terry Wiegand said:

Since this car is a 1969 model, I'm just wondering if this wasn't about the time that the new vehicles starting coming out with radial tires from the factory.  Just askin'.

I wondered that too.. if they were available as an option on the Corvair, so long as they are done properly (right type of radial and right type of rim if they were different), then you can change what you want, so long as it's original... but only for class judging!

Edited December 18, 2017 by Frantz (see edit history)

[Frantz]

I judge chassis eternally.. or at least as long as most of you folk will be along. I'm 34 so my knees are still pretty good and I volunteer to take em. On non-restored examples, nearly all wheels or hubcaps lose a point each for nicks, scratches, paint, something. On commonly driven tires, often they lose a point each for condition, damage or wear. The spare is often okay though, but give it's really pretty common to see non-fresh restored cars lose 4-8 points on wheels and tires alone. Depending on the class you're in, that might not be a huge deal, and you'll probably still get an award if the rest of the car is pretty strong. But in a class where a 400 point car shows up, that starts you out in 2nd place if you lose all 8. If you lose 25 point for the wrong tires, you're only 5 points away from not getting a 1st even if you're the only car in your class. We can talk about the rules, but we have to play within them!

[mike6024]

Standard and optional equipment link. Tires 7.00 13 4 Ply Rating Whitewall.

 

https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/docs/gm-heritage-archive/vehicle-information-kits/Corvair/1969-Chevrolet-Corvair.pdf

[motoringicons]

General AACA National Meet judging question: Can a car be entered in HPOF at one national meet and  later be entered in class judging at another national meet? Or vice versa?  Or, in other words, can a car be awarded an HPOF AND a First Junior, Senior, etc?

Just curious. Thanks.

[Roger Frazee]

That Corvair is beautiful! 

 

13" Firestone bias ply tires are available from Coker.  I bought a set when I entered my '66 Corvair in Class Judging.  I liked the looks and feel of the bias ply tires so much that I left them on and sold my radials.

 

I think you should enter your car in Class Judging.  It should do well, as long as you make the switch to bias ply tires.

[MCHinson]

2 hours ago, motoringicons said:

General AACA National Meet judging question: Can a car be entered in HPOF at one national meet and  later be entered in class judging at another national meet? Or vice versa?  Or, in other words, can a car be awarded an HPOF AND a First Junior, Senior, etc?

Just curious. Thanks.

 

Basically, No. (except once every ten years and after you have returned the award that the car received...)

 

Class Registration Change 1. If a member decides he/she wants to move his/her vehicle to a different class (Class Judging, HPOF, DPC) after the vehicle has won an award in any such class, he/she may do so. 2. Switching to a different class will be accommodated only once every 10 years. Once you make a switch the vehicle is required to stay in that class until a total of 10 years has passed. At the 10 year mark you are eligible to use the recycle method and thereby choose a new class. This guideline is effective beginning 2013. 4-31 3. To make the switch it will be necessary to contact National Headquarters and speak to the person in charge of vehicle records. If a member chooses to move his/her vehicle to a different class he/she must return all badges to National Headquarters. The badges must NOT remain on the vehicle. If the owner wishes, he/she may enclose $5 per badge to have the badge engraved “RETIRED” and sent back to the owner. 4. A vehicle that has won a First Junior Award cannot then enter the HPOF or DPC class. The only exception would be if it is after 10 years since it won the First Junior Award and elects to return any award badges (i.e., junior, senior, AGNM) to AACA and implement the Recycle option. A vehicle that has won a 2nd Junior or 3rd Junior award or no award competing in the Junior class can enter either the HPOF or DPC class. 5. A vehicle that has been HPOF Certified cannot then enter the Junior Class or DPC class. The following two exceptions apply: a. If the owner decides to restore the vehicle, can then be entered in the Junior class when AACA is so notified and the HPOF badge is removed from the vehicle and returned to AACA, or b. If after 10 years from the original HPOF certification date, the owner elects to implement the Recycle option and returns the HPOF badge that had been on the vehicle

[Frank DuVal]

I have owned and driven many Corvairs . I have never seen a bias ply tire that would ride and handle as nice as a radial tire on a Corvair. This is starting back in the days of Plycron, Rayon, fiberglass belted bias plies, steel belted radials, etc. Granted there are bad radials that should be replaced, I am talking good radials vs good bias plies here. Now, if all you do is drive onto and out of a trailer, then sure, spend the money on repop bias plies. But, if you want it to handle like a great  car, keep the radials on !

 

Those who promote bias ply tires over radials just ignore the safety factor of radial construction. It would be like not allowing turn signals or laminated glass without points deductions. 

 

Keep them bone stock or start leveling the playing field of approved changes. Safety First!

[bobg1951chevy]

11 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

Agreed.

 

 

Agree to which poster ?

[bobg1951chevy]

6 hours ago, Frantz said:

I don't write the rules, I just judge by them. They are scored 5 points each, including the spare, and non original requires max deduction. There isn't any room for discretion here under current rules. You might not count the number of paint flaws, but each panel could lose points for paint flaws... likewise, a non-factory type panel is max deduction per panel.

 

 

I wondered that too.. if they were available as an option on the Corvair, so long as they are done properly (right type of radial and right type of rim if they were different), then you can change what you want, so long as it's original... but only for class judging!

The radials were not available in 1969 on Corvairs.

[bobg1951chevy]

9 hours ago, Vila said:

If the car looks as good as seen in the photo I would show it in class and yes changing the tires will save you some points.

 

If it was me, I would show it in class.

 

My 1984 BMW 633 is all original, except tires and exhaust system, with 130,000 miles and I have received awards up to 1st Senior in class judging at Hershey and a Grand National at Williamport PA in 2016.  That said, don't let the class judging scare you away from showing your all original Corvair in class. 

 

I show my 1933 Chevrolet in HPOF and do not like the fact that HPOF cars are separated from similar cars like when you show your car in class.  As you know, AACA groups all other HPOF vehicles independent of make or year.  For that reason, I very rarely show this car at AACA meets.

Thank you, yes, the car looks as good "in person" as it does in the photo. 

Original owners had the car 31 years, second owner had the car 17  years, now I'm the third caretaker.

Edited December 18, 2017 by bobg1951chevy (see edit history)

[Frantz]

IMO, bias tires aren't unsafe when driving a vehicle as designed. When comparing a the compromises made driving a 50 year old machine compared to a brand new one, the tires are not the "bottleneck" in the line of safety. Letting your tires get old and hard would qualify as a bigger safety concern for me, since many of these old cars don't wear out their tires anymore and folks get cheap about keeping the rubber fresh (especially if you are keeping bias tires on there). And since we own these vehicles because we like the way they look, historic preservation, or enjoyment of operating an old machine, I think having the proper bias tires on them is part of the overall charm. Are we really going to start talking ride and handling when it comes to enjoying obsolete machines that don't hold a candle to the cheapest POS available on the road today regarding those attributes (safety and handling)? 

[bobg1951chevy]

49 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

I have owned and driven many Corvairs . I have never seen a bias ply tire that would ride and handle as nice as a radial tire on a Corvair. This is starting back in the days of Plycron, Rayon, fiberglass belted bias plies, steel belted radials, etc. Granted there are bad radials that should be replaced, I am talking good radials vs good bias plies here. Now, if all you do is drive onto and out of a trailer, then sure, spend the money on repop bias plies. But, if you want it to handle like a great  car, keep the radials on !

 

Those who promote bias ply tires over radials just ignore the safety factor of radial construction. It would be like not allowing turn signals or laminated glass without points deductions. 

 

Keep them bone stock or start leveling the playing field of approved changes. Safety First!

Thanks Frank, nothing is "out of stock", except the 13" Firestone radials.  To lose 25 points for 5 radials is a big hit, isn't it ?   It seems so, to me.

[bobg1951chevy]

1 hour ago, MCHinson said:

 

Basically, No. (except once every ten years and after you have returned the award that the car received...)

 

Class Registration Change 1. If a member decides he/she wants to move his/her vehicle to a different class (Class Judging, HPOF, DPC) after the vehicle has won an award in any such class, he/she may do so. 2. Switching to a different class will be accommodated only once every 10 years. Once you make a switch the vehicle is required to stay in that class until a total of 10 years has passed. At the 10 year mark you are eligible to use the recycle method and thereby choose a new class. This guideline is effective beginning 2013. 4-31 3. To make the switch it will be necessary to contact National Headquarters and speak to the person in charge of vehicle records. If a member chooses to move his/her vehicle to a different class he/she must return all badges to National Headquarters. The badges must NOT remain on the vehicle. If the owner wishes, he/she may enclose $5 per badge to have the badge engraved “RETIRED” and sent back to the owner. 4. A vehicle that has won a First Junior Award cannot then enter the HPOF or DPC class. The only exception would be if it is after 10 years since it won the First Junior Award and elects to return any award badges (i.e., junior, senior, AGNM) to AACA and implement the Recycle option. A vehicle that has won a 2nd Junior or 3rd Junior award or no award competing in the Junior class can enter either the HPOF or DPC class. 5. A vehicle that has been HPOF Certified cannot then enter the Junior Class or DPC class. The following two exceptions apply: a. If the owner decides to restore the vehicle, can then be entered in the Junior class when AACA is so notified and the HPOF badge is removed from the vehicle and returned to AACA, or b. If after 10 years from the original HPOF certification date, the owner elects to implement the Recycle option and returns the HPOF badge that had been on the vehicle

UGH ..... being that I have not been to a judging event at AACA or VCCA, this is a lot to attempt to digest, at least for me, it is.

[MCHinson]

3 minutes ago, bobg1951chevy said:

UGH ..... being that I have not been to a judging event at AACA or VCCA, this is a lot to attempt to digest, at least for me, it is.

 

It is easy to understand. He was asking if you could switch between HPOF and Class Judging. The easy short answer is "No", but it is not entirely accurate. Only under those conditions can you switch, so the answer is probably more accurately, "Technically Yes, but Not in the way he was hoping." You can't just switch back and forth.

[Frantz]

Join us for a judging school and judge an event. Even if you only do it once (and please just keep joining us as an accidental addiction), you'll far better understand the process over most of your peers. That alone will give you and edge and a better idea what type of judged event you want to be in. There is the SE Spring meet in Charlotte each year that would be a great place to learn!

Wow... next year is like "Pennsylvania AACA the year"!

[bobg1951chevy]

10 minutes ago, Frantz said:

IMO, bias tires aren't unsafe when driving a vehicle as designed. When comparing a the compromises made driving a 50 year old machine compared to a brand new one, the tires are not the "bottleneck" in the line of safety. Letting your tires get old and hard would qualify as a bigger safety concern for me, since many of these old cars don't wear out their tires anymore and folks get cheap about keeping the rubber fresh (especially if you are keeping bias tires on there). And since we own these vehicles because we like the way they look, historic preservation, or enjoyment of operating an old machine, I think having the proper bias tires on them is part of the overall charm. Are we really going to start talking ride and handling when it comes to enjoying obsolete machines that don't hold a candle to the cheapest POS available on the road today regarding those attributes (safety and handling)? 

Cars with turn signals are safer than cars without turn signals. 

Cars with seat belts are safer than cars without seat belts.

Radial tires are a safer tire than bias belted tires.   

As car collectors, we know the  "good and bad" about tire life, tire durability, etc.

That being said,  my initial question was about point deduction for radial tires, nothing more.

 

 

 

[bobg1951chevy]

21 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

 

It is easy to understand. He was asking if you could switch between HPOF and Class Judging. The easy short answer is "No", but it is not entirely accurate. Only under those conditions can you switch, so the answer is probably more accurately, "Technically Yes, but Not in the way he was hoping." You can't just switch back and forth.

Thanks, MC Hinson.

[bobg1951chevy]

19 minutes ago, Frantz said:

Join us for a judging school and judge an event. Even if you only do it once (and please just keep joining us as an accidental addiction), you'll far better understand the process over most of your peers. That alone will give you and edge and a better idea what type of judged event you want to be in. There is the SE Spring meet in Charlotte each year that would be a great place to learn!

Wow... next year is like "Pennsylvania AACA the year"!

Frantz, it may be something I would consider.

[Doug Novak]

If the only incorrect item on your car are the Radial Tires, which is  -5 points for each tire, or a total of -20 points out of 400 that leaves you with a score of 380.

In the Judging Class you begin trying for First Junior that requires a score not lower the 365. Once you win First Junior you enter the next year trying for First Senior which you need a score not lower then 380, and once you win this one you go for Grand National that requires a score not lower then 380. From there on you will enter each year in Preservation for an Award requiring a score not lower them 360. I you have other cars in your class that are more correct you can still win 2nd or 3rd.

 

Now having said all that remember that you will also need a correct SPARE TIRE, plus there might be things that will hurt you such as not having Sealed Beam Head lights. Most people replace sealed beams when they burn out with newer types used today. It's easy to over look these sort of things, ask me how I know! It's all part of the fun and making corrections over the years is part of the Hobby that I have enjoyed the most.

 

What I did with my '68 AMX, that had non original type Radial Tires on correct Magnum 500 Rims was to go  buy another set of correct Rims and Coker Bias Ply Belted tires of the correct size and style.  I switch the Tire/Rim set up depending on where I'm going. It takes less then and hour to change all 4 Wheels. Your Corvair looks like it has steel rims that shouldn't be too expensive to find and your wheel trim should be interchangeable. Again don't forget the Spare. My Spare is a correct inflatable Space Saver Tire. I'll never use it if I get a flat.

 

One last comment about Bias Ply Tires, yes they can be less desirable a can take a little while getting use too. How ever I  was shocked at how a new set of correct Gable New Shocks for Vintage Cars fixed 90% of the problems? Now I too have kept on the car and run with the Red Line Bias Ply Tires all the time. I drive to all Shows and feel it's important that the cars be seen everywhere they go. 

[Pomeroy41144]

Your car is very beautiful.  Good luck. 

[Roger Frazee]

1 hour ago, bobg1951chevy said:

Thanks Frank, nothing is "out of stock", except the 13" Firestone radials.  To lose 25 points for 5 radials is a big hit, isn't it ?   It seems so, to me.

 

Yes.  It's a big hit that will most likely keep you from getting your First Junior Award.  You're going to need five bias ply tires if you plan to show your car.  

 

By the way, do you know which meet you will be attending?

[bobg1951chevy]

16 minutes ago, Doug Novak said:

If the only incorrect item on your car are the Radial Tires, which is  -5 points for each tire, or a total of -20 points out of 400 that leaves you with a score of 380.

In the Judging Class you begin trying for First Junior that requires a score not lower the 365. Once you win First Junior you enter the next year trying for First Senior which you need a score not lower then 380, and once you win this one you go for Grand National that requires a score not lower then 380. From there on you will enter each year in Preservation for an Award requiring a score not lower them 360. I you have other cars in your class that are more correct you can still win 2nd or 3rd.

 

Now having said all that remember that you will also need a correct SPARE TIRE, plus there might be things that will hurt you such as not having Sealed Beam Head lights. Most people replace sealed beams when they burn out with newer types used today. It's easy to over look these sort of things, ask me how I know! It's all part of the fun and making corrections over the years is part of the Hobby that I have enjoyed the most.

 

What I did with my '68 AMX, that had non original type Radial Tires on correct Magnum 500 Rims was to go  buy another set of correct Rims and Coker Bias Ply Belted tires of the correct size and style.  I switch the Tire/Rim set up depending on where I'm going. It takes less then and hour to change all 4 Wheels. Your Corvair looks like it has steel rims that shouldn't be too expensive to find and your wheel trim should be interchangeable. Again don't forget the Spare. My Spare is a correct inflatable Space Saver Tire. I'll never use it if I get a flat.

 

One last comment about Bias Ply Tires, yes they can be less desirable a can take a little while getting use too. How ever I  was shocked at how a new set of correct Gable New Shocks for Vintage Cars fixed 90% of the problems? Now I too have kept on the car and run with the Red Line Bias Ply Tires all the time. I drive to all Shows and feel it's important that the cars be seen everywhere they go. 

Doug, I have 5 radials, including the spare. 

I do have the T3 headlamps on the car, no evidence in the records provided to me that the headlights were ever replaced.

With 28,000 total miles, I would imagine  it didn't run too much during the night.

I would probably never consider throwing the car into the judging arena , but it has been nicely preserved, over the years.

Thanks for your information, Doug.

[bobg1951chevy]

10 minutes ago, Roger Frazee said:

 

Yes.  It's a big hit that will most likely keep you from getting your First Junior Award.  You're going to need five bias ply tires if you plan to show your car.  

 

By the way, do you know which meet you will be attending?

No, Roger, don't know at this time as to which meet I will attend.  

Maybe none, after reading the importance of having the darn bias belted tires on the car.

[bobg1951chevy]

27 minutes ago, Pomeroy41144 said:

Your car is very beautiful.  Good luck. 

Thanks very much !

[padgett]

And this discussion is why I do not show cars. BTW the 69 Continental MK III was the first with radials. Most cars of the early 70s came with an unmentionable called Bias-Belted that should be outlawed because so many came apart. My Judge came with G70-14 fiberglass bias belted on 14x6" rims. It now has much more appropriate radials on 15x8 Pontiac rims from the same decade. I have no intention of changing but then need to be able to drive at Interstate speeds (70 mph) without going sideways when wet (often in Florida)

[Frantz]

Nothing to get too discouraged over. As others said, lots of cars that are far less than perfect still rightfully qualify for a 1st place. Tires are certainly one of the big sticking points though where an otherwise nice car can lose out. That being said, most cars have many more point deductions than their owners think though too, which is one reason I recommend trying the judging process a few times at least to get a feel for the process. When you judge and come across a 400 point car and see a really nice original example the difference stands out pretty easily with defects of age and wear. Remember, we are judging compared to showroom condition, not compared to other cars that survived for 50 years with few or no repairs. However, the AACA scoring system isn't really designed to let only the absolute best be awarded. Actually I think it's generous and I think most judges, while performing a critique, are generally not looking to take off more points than absolutely required. If it's a question between losing 1 points or 2, most will take 1. When it's one point each, the points just add up. And wrong being wrong, the tires can really hurt a cars chances at max deduction... but in the grand scheme of the hobby, what a cheap way to make sure you don't lose 25 points!

[MCHinson]

1 minute ago, Frantz said:

And wrong being wrong, the tires can really hurt a cars chances at max deduction... but in the grand scheme of the hobby, what a cheap way to make sure you don't lose 25 points!

 

Just be sure to read the 2018 Judging guidelines when they come out. I trust my source who told me that it won't be 25 points in 2018. 

[Frantz]

I'm sure that will get it's own slide if the change is made, and probably show up in one of the pop quizzes of judging school!