JUDGING QUESTION

[Frank DuVal]

Padgett, I feel similar, except I do show my cars, even my daily drivers.  People love to see them. Not the typical Mustang, Corvette or Camaro that are so prevalent.  I never expect a trophy, I leave those for people with money.

 

I have had one car that would have scored very high in AACA rules, except a 64 Spyder convertible in 1982 was not yet AACA eligible. Then I drove the wheels off it because it was so much fun to drive! But it did have radials, of course.... 

 

Each person gets to decide how they want to enjoy our hobby. Choose what makes you happy!

 

I do agree that volunteering to be a judge is a great way to learn about cars, judging, and the AACA methods. I do volunteer to judge at our local AACA shows! I give points deductions for radials and hose clamps on most 40s and newer cars....

[cahartley]

4 hours ago, bobg1951chevy said:

No, Roger, don't know at this time as to which meet I will attend.  

Maybe none, after reading the importance of having the darn bias belted tires on the car.

 

On the other hand you can't drive a trophy....... 

[bobg1951chevy]

21 minutes ago, cahartley said:

 

On the other hand you can't drive a trophy....... 

LOL, you have a valid point there, cahartley.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

10 hours ago, bobg1951chevy said:

No, Roger, don't know at this time as to which meet I will attend.  

Maybe none, after reading the importance of having the darn bias belted tires on the car.

 

 A trophy is the LAST reason I would attend.  Seeing all those beautiful cars is reason enough. Then there is the trip. And meeting all the folks. WOW

 

  Ben

[oldcarfudd]

Bob G, I’ll probably be accused of ignoring your original post, in which you said you’d like to take your car to a meet and have it judged.  Since then, much of the discussion has been about whether the point deductions for radial tires are fair, versus whether the car drives better with radials.  The bottom line seems to be that it will be hard for you to have both top-notch driving and top awards with your beautiful Corvair. 

 

A few people have suggested that awards aren’t worth all that much – ”You can’t drive a trophy”, or “The car IS the trophy”.  I like that approach.  I take cars to Hershey long after they got a senior, as well as cars that will never get a senior.  I enter them in their respective judging classes and park them with their peers – NOT in DPC!  And I specify “Do Not Judge”.  I get all the admiration and none of the white-glove nitpicking.  I can sit in my car and chat with visitors.  If someone asks about authenticity, we can have a civilized discussion and not a fight, because no trophy is at stake.  I don’t have to obsess about cleanliness, which is great, because I typically DRIVE my car 30 miles from my son’s place to Hershey.  And these are brass-era cars; they don’t just drip oil, they hurl it all over the place.  A couple of times I’ve driven a single-cylinder, 1907 Cadillac the 30 miles to and from Hershey, about 1-3/4 hours each way, and arrived with the underside of the car marinating in oil.  And I’ve had a ball! 

 

“Do Not Judge” was a great invention.  Think about it!

[padgett]

Don't forget, Triumph's answer to leaking oil was to put a sponge under the engine.

 

Personally hope that someday Radials will be classed with a Fire Extinguisher as a safety item. Some clubs do already. Might mention that a Bias tire with four digit DOT date code is incorrect for anything from the last century and would consider any tire that old to be unsafe at any speed.

[John348]

7 hours ago, padgett said:

Don't forget, Triumph's answer to leaking oil was to put a sponge under the engine.

 

Personally hope that someday Radials will be classed with a Fire Extinguisher as a safety item. Some clubs do already. Might mention that a Bias tire with four digit DOT date code is incorrect for anything from the last century and would consider any tire that old to be unsafe at any speed.

 

Why? I thought you did not show your cars so why the concern to dilute the rules for those who do enjoy to show our cars? I never had a problem with the bias plys on any of my show cars or knock around drivers. They can be dicey in the rain, but who's driving these cars long distance in the rain

[bobg1951chevy]

12 hours ago, oldcarfudd said:

Bob G, I’ll probably be accused of ignoring your original post, in which you said you’d like to take your car to a meet and have it judged.  Since then, much of the discussion has been about whether the point deductions for radial tires are fair, versus whether the car drives better with radials.  The bottom line seems to be that it will be hard for you to have both top-notch driving and top awards with your beautiful Corvair. 

 

A few people have suggested that awards aren’t worth all that much – ”You can’t drive a trophy”, or “The car IS the trophy”.  I like that approach.  I take cars to Hershey long after they got a senior, as well as cars that will never get a senior.  I enter them in their respective judging classes and park them with their peers – NOT in DPC!  And I specify “Do Not Judge”.  I get all the admiration and none of the white-glove nitpicking.  I can sit in my car and chat with visitors.  If someone asks about authenticity, we can have a civilized discussion and not a fight, because no trophy is at stake.  I don’t have to obsess about cleanliness, which is great, because I typically DRIVE my car 30 miles from my son’s place to Hershey.  And these are brass-era cars; they don’t just drip oil, they hurl it all over the place.  A couple of times I’ve driven a single-cylinder, 1907 Cadillac the 30 miles to and from Hershey, about 1-3/4 hours each way, and arrived with the underside of the car marinating in oil.  And I’ve had a ball! 

 

“Do Not Judge” was a great invention.  Think about it!

Oldcarfudd,  I wanted to have the car "evaluated"  for two reasons.

1. I have never been to a meet in my life, either AACA or VCCA.

I would like to do so, before all the sand runs to the bottom of my egg timer. (Not everyone will understand the timer comparison, sorry).

2. Except for the radials, I FINALLY own a car that is factory original and equipped just the way it left Willow Run.

I am confused by the comparison of class judging vs HPOF,  so my wording may not be correct, as I write.

I will obtain the 2018 Judging Book, when its available, then I will study.

Bottom line, I have zero interest in flashing a trophy around, for the sake of obtaining a trophy ........ but I would like the car to be recognized for what it is.

Make sense ..... or not ?

I hope it makes some sense.

[padgett]

"They can be dicey in the rain, but who's driving these cars long distance in the rain "

Any Floridian. All of my cars are ready to go anywhere with minimal prep. Otherwise why have them ? Have felt this way since college (didn't have a DL in high school).

 

Keep in mind that the stock tire for most production American cars a half century ago was the cheapest thing the mfr could find & as Bill Neely said were "not even safe in the driveway". Can you even buy a two ply tire any longer ? Yes there are bias tires you can buy today but they have little resemblance to the low priced tires of the 60s and 70s. GM liked Uniroyals (Uni, Roy, & Al) back then, today they are the "value line" of the Michelin-BFG conglomerate.

 

But my real point is that making a big thing about bias vs radials, seems a bit silly when any tire made today for highway use must have current  DOT and FMVSS markings. In other words the exact tire used back then does not exist today so why is the construction important ?

 

Funny thing is that I have assembly and supplier documents for many GM cars & I see a lot of money often being spent for the rong thing (no GM car came off the assembly line with an R59 battery). If not going to care at that level, why bother about other replacement items ? (Almost all of my cars have AGMs).

 

Know am not going to win here, just letting new people know there are different opinions.

[John348]

8 minutes ago, padgett said:

"They can be dicey in the rain, but who's driving these cars long distance in the rain "

Any Floridian. All of my cars are ready to go anywhere with minimal prep. Otherwise why have them ? Have felt this way since college (didn't have a DL in high school).

 

Keep in mind that the stock tire for most production American cars a half century ago was the cheapest thing the mfr could find & as Bill Neely said were "not even safe in the driveway". Can you even buy a two ply tire any longer ? Yes there are bias tires you can buy today but they have little resemblance to the low priced tires of the 60s and 70s. GM liked Uniroyals (Uni, Roy, & Al) back then, today they are the "value line" of the Michelin-BFG conglomerate.

 

But my real point is that making a big thing about bias vs radials, seems a bit silly when any tire made today for highway use must have current  DOT and FMVSS markings. In other words the exact tire used back then does not exist today so why is the construction important ?

 

Funny thing is that I have assembly and supplier documents for many GM cars & I see a lot of money often being spent for the rong thing (no GM car came off the assembly line with an R59 battery). If not going to care at that level, why bother about other replacement items ? (Almost all of my cars have AGMs).

 

Know am not going to win here, just letting new people know there are different opinions.

 

Just as as I figured you would not answer the question "Why? I thought you did not show your cars so why the concern to dilute the rules for those who do enjoy to show our cars? " The original post had nothing to do about your cars or what you do with your cars. It was about judging of which you pointed out you don't participate in. Everyone here is aware of the different opinions, on tires but again nobody had asked for them. Bob want's to have his car judged at a National Meet in two different clubs who respect and use "as delivered when new" he was looking for advice and not anyone's personal opinion of something.

 

And I do live in Florida 6 months out of the year I have no problems with bias ply's. What the heck is an an AGM? 

[Curti]

Personally I like to have my cars judged .  I build the cars just the way they sat on the dealer show room floor, no better no worse.  It is easy to over restore a car or enhance a survivor.   It is not so easy to do the research.

Some cars are like race horses. Cars judged at certain shows and do well are worth more when they are sold .  A horse that wins the triple crown is desirable. My kids will have no problem with their inheritance.  Everyone's hobby is different.

[SC38dls]

The horse is only valuable if it can reproduce. Ask the Calumet farm original family owners. The younger generation bet the farm on a stallion that was shooting blanks. A good book to read about it is “Wild Ride”. 

Dave S 

[John348]

Those of us who compete at the higher level know that the thoroughbred cars always have the right shoes.

We all would have saved a lot of money if our cars could reproduce!  

[SC38dls]

Don’t ever buy anything that eats when you sleep, if it can reproduce or not! 

[mike6024]

 650-13 - US Royal 1 Inch Whitewall, Bias Ply

OE fitment for Chevrolet Corvair, Ford Falcon, many others

Made in USA

http://www.lucasclassictires.com/650-13-US-Royal-1-WW-51035L.htm

 

Lucas Tire

Edited December 21, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

Absorbed Glass Mat. Typically this is an Optima brand battery, but there are others out there.

 

Agreed to tire discussion, do what you want to do as owner, as you enjoy the hobby the way you want to. I'm a driver, other people are showers. Um, show-ers?

 

I would suggest Bob show the car as is, since a trophy is not his goal. If after getting the score sheet he wants to improve his score and put it in another show, that is fine too!  There are regional shows that would be easier to get to for a first time judging event.  To quote, "NC Region coordinates and supports events for 14 AACA Chapters in North Carolina."  Check out their website for show information. 

 

Either way his car looks great! And only AACA people will notice what construction the tires on the car happen to be.

[mike6024]

 

Coker 700-13 http://www.cokertire.com/700-13-firestone-5-8-whitewall-tire.html  

Get beautiful classic bias ply styling for your car with this authentic 700-13 narrow whitewall from Coker Tire Company. This premium tire features authentic tread design and 'pie crust' upper sidewalls. The narrow whitewall is the perfect compliment to your late sixties classic.

[Frank DuVal]

6.50 is too narrow for 1969 Corvairs, they have to be 7.00 x 13. I do not see the whitewall width listed, I think 1" might be too wide.

 

185/80 R 13 for those non-purists!  Maxxis still has them in production sometimes they are on backorder. 

[mike6024]

Lucas Tire has a lot of good vintage tires, especially for European autos. Only Coker has the right size for this Corvair. Maybe/probably the 650-13 was used on earlier years?

 

The Firestone 700-13 has a 5/8 inch whitewall. That's narrow, but is that correct?

 

Firestone | 5/8 Inch Whitewall | 700-13

 

 

Edited December 21, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

Yep, 6.50-13 starting in 1960.  Or on the Tucker's original test chassis. They can be seen at the **** Museum in Hershey, now that Dave has passed away.

[Frank DuVal]

Bob, if you are interested in what was original on a Corvair, there is the Stock Corvair Group of CORSA. 

 

http://stock.corvair.org/wordpress/

 

Much has been written down and saved about the 69s since they are the last of the Mohicans as such. 

[bobg1951chevy]

5 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Bob, if you are interested in what was original on a Corvair, there is the Stock Corvair Group of CORSA. 

 

http://stock.corvair.org/wordpress/

 

Much has been written down and saved about the 69s since they are the last of the Mohicans as such. 

As always, thanks Frank.

[bobg1951chevy]

21 hours ago, mike6024 said:

 

Coker 700-13 http://www.cokertire.com/700-13-firestone-5-8-whitewall-tire.html  

Get beautiful classic bias ply styling for your car with this authentic 700-13 narrow whitewall from Coker Tire Company. This premium tire features authentic tread design and 'pie crust' upper sidewalls. The narrow whitewall is the perfect compliment to your late sixties classic.

These 7:00 x 13 Firestones look like the tires  on my '69 Corvair.

[Marty Roth]

On 12/18/2017 at 11:03 AM, Terry Wiegand said:

Since this car is a 1969 model, I'm just wondering if this wasn't about the time that the new vehicles starting coming out with radial tires from the factory.  Just askin'.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

 

No, to the best of my knowledge American cars did not come equipped with radial tires in 1969, at least they cold not be ordered on my then newly-ordered 1969 Pontiac -

if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will provide alternate documentation

[Marty Roth]

23 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

6.50 is too narrow for 1969 Corvairs, they have to be 7.00 x 13. I do not see the whitewall width listed, I think 1" might be too wide.

 

185/80 R 13 for those non-purists!  Maxxis still has them in production sometimes they are on backorder. 

 

I have a set of five (5) Maxxis 185/80R-13 whitewall radials on my 1965 Corvair, but this is not a judged car, but rather evaluated, and has earned Driver Participation (DPC) recognition - then again, we drive it as much as we can - every chance we get

[John348]

8 hours ago, Marty Roth said:

 

No, to the best of my knowledge American cars did not come equipped with radial tires in 1969, at least they cold not be ordered on my then newly-ordered 1969 Pontiac -

if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will provide alternate documentation

 

I am pretty sure that they did not show up on Chevrolets until 1973

[padgett]

Well the Lucas is "Construction: Tubeless 4 ply polyester

Load Capacity: 1150 @ 32 psi"

 

And see the legend (US required) on the Coker "Firestone"

 

My point is that an original 1969 Corvair would have had 2 ply tires (did they have Polyester then ?) and no FMVSS markings so are paying $175-$180 each for rong tires.

 

And if it cant be exactly right down to the proper markings then why bother ? (Funny thing is that when I first said that people thought I was arguing for stricter judging).

 

ps thought I mentioned the 69 Continental Mk III. And need to correct myself, the '70 (came out in 69 8*) was the first production car with radial tires. I guarantee nothing from memory any more.

Edited December 23, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)

[bobg1951chevy]

In 1969, the Corvair had a 7:00 x 13 two ply, 4 ply rated tire on all models , according to GM Heritage site.

 

44 minutes ago, padgett said:

Well the Lucas is "Construction: Tubeless 4 ply polyester

Load Capacity: 1150 @ 32 psi"

 

And see the legend (US required) on the Coker "Firestone"

 

My point is that an original 1969 Corvair would have had 2 ply tires (did they have Polyester then ?) and no FMVSS markings so are paying $175-$180 each for rong tires.

 

And if it cant be exactly right down to the proper markings then why bother ? (Funny thing is that when I first said that people thought I was arguing for stricter judging).

 

ps thought I mentioned the 69 Continental Mk III. And need to correct myself, the '70 (came out in 69 8*) was the first production car with radial tires. I guarantee nothing from memory any more.

 

[John348]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

(Funny thing is that when I first said that people thought I was arguing for stricter judging)

 

 

You said you did not like judging so why would I ever think that? 

[padgett]

And my memory also says in the sixties US tires were rayon or nylon cord (what went thump thump thump after sitting for a while). So we had 2ply/4pr tires that were often bald in under 10k miles and were followed by bias-belted (often with a one ply sidewall) that did not last as long and introduced us to "belt shift". It is hard to appreciate just how bad tires were back then. (Once had a '70 Grand Prix with a 4 speed and el cheapo H78-14s. Friends called it asphyxiation.) .

 

Point I am making is that the big three always bought tires from the lowest bidder (I knew one dealer that made quite a chunk of change replacing stock tires with General Dual 90s and Vogues for the truly wealthy).

 

Perhaps it is a penalty any more having Been There when all of this was going on. Was just talking with a friend about Pontiac being naughty in '73 and the EPA got irritated which killed most of the Super Duty production.

 

Now if you want to be fanatical about what color to paint a block...

. People just do not realize the enormity of how much

 

 

ps you wouldn't but back when the world and I were young I designed things like platinum (points) judging classes. Also created the #6 car - one you would pay more to take pieces and leave the rest. Back then sixties and seventies tires were still on some cars (mostly automatics) and was easy to tell the difference between an original and a repop. Those experiences are why do not judge now. Besides I own one.

[John348]

Mr P, very interesting but........that has absolutely nothing to do with the original posters topic, just thought I would point that out to you

[padgett]

Its nice to have a fan club.

 

However to get back to the first post. If the OEM tire was a bias-belted (appeared in 1967), then what makes a bias tire more correct than a radial ?

Edited December 23, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)

[John348]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Its nice to have a fan club.

 

However to get back to the first post. If the OEM tire was a bias-belted (appeared in 1967), then what makes a bias tire more correct than a radial ?

 

I am pretty sure you know the answer as to why, after all you were the one who "designed platinum points judging classes" So you are just looking for a debate, but thanks for getting the topic back on track

Edited December 23, 2017 by John348 (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

As for tires only lasting 10k mIles in the '60's excuse my French but that is bs. I grew up in Dad's tire shop (1957-1971) and even Dad's recaps were good for 30-40k. Nothing wrong with bias tires. Are radials better? Yes in some ways. Don't denigrate bias tires. They were far better than they are sometime portrayed. Generally took less weight to balance them than it does most modern radials. You cannot compare bias tires built in the period to the poor quality repro tires available today. Entirely different thing.

[Curti]

 You cannot compare bias tires built in the period to the poor quality repro tires available today. Entirely different thing.

Particularly by some companies .  

[Frank DuVal]

OK, if we move this era figure to the 50s, then yes, I've heard the stories of tires lasting only 10K miles. By the 60s tires had improved. But, I was still able to wear out 36K mile warranty tires in 12K miles and get some money back in the early 70s on my Chevy wagon (young person, what can I say?). 

 

Also, there seems to be some confusion on terms in this discussion.

 

There are: Bias ply tires, Bias belted tires, and radial belted tires. Do not confuse Bias with Bias Belted, they are similar but different. The bias belted tires are usually fiberglass belted, but some tried steel too. 

 

Bias ply tires are the original tires, from back in the late 1800s. The 60s version of these were only good for mid 20s K life.

 

Bias Belted, with the fiberglass, got the life up to maybe 35K miles. These became popular after 1968.

 

Radial belted got the life up past 40K miles. Plus better handling and fuel mileage.

 

Need to disagree? Check facts first:

 

http://www.jags.org/TechInfo/2001/05May01/tires/historyoftires.htm

 

 

[John348]

48 minutes ago, Curti said:

 You cannot compare bias tires built in the period to the poor quality repro tires available today. Entirely different thing.

Particularly by some companies .  

 

Very True! 

If we consider that the owner is restoring a 'show competitive vehicle' 10,000 miles of driving will never happen on those tires.  Most likely they will dry rot before they wear out.  One of my cars was finished in 2005, It only has 2,000 miles of use on it since I completed it and I am sure that is typical of most use of  repeat Senior Grand National vehicles.

So the purchaser is not concerned about handling in bad weather or milage wear, but concerned about correct size,  manufacturer (logo), and markings. I guess manufacturers  can compensate in materials as long as they meet the DOT requirements  

Trying to restore a car as visually correct as possible can be limiting due to products and  materials that are available. 

[padgett]

"  

 You cannot compare bias tires built in the period to the poor quality repro tires available today. Entirely different thin

"

Shall we say I was buying Dunlop RS-5s for a succession of Jags starting with an XK150s,  Devin-Jag, and an E-type (I like a DOHC 6 with triple HD8s) over 50 years ago. Don't think I ever got more than 10k from a set. Later had Blue Streaks for autocrossing and BFG Radial T/As for street use on my 67 Camaro (bought when new, same combo on my Split Window - used T/As as rain tires and would fit on trailer - 27x12.65x15s wouldn't fit).

 

Strongly suspect it was my driving but never had a set of tires last more than 8-10k miles. Bought a Buick GS in '70 and had the dealer install dog-bone Dunlops on 15x7s before I took delivery. Won a few autocrosses with that A-body before switching to Corvairs (ever hear of a Peterson Box ?)

 

Was still autocrossing and rallying until recently and the biggest difference is in the tires, cornering power in the six-speed Crossfire coupe (SOHC 6) with 225x40x18s and 255x35x19s Conti DWs is just incredible and they are not even close to state of the art for absolute dry cornering (tend to have occasional frog stranglers here, slicks are the last thing you want).

 

So not comparing the current repops other than to say they are not exactly like OEM tires, can tell the difference when parked from 10 feet away, rather have been going for max performance (and have a few trophies for the effort) since the early 60s and can say from the experience that even the best street tires of 30 years ago (had some Firestone 500s briefly and more Goodyear Eagles) are no where near as good as the equivalent tires of today for maximum performance.

 

But back to the original question: if the OEM tires were bias-belted (post #1) how is a bias tire more correct than a radial. Both are rong.

Edited December 24, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)

[John348]

I think you are missing the point here again Mr P.

We are not talking about auto crossing, ralling or justifying why one should modify their car. The reproduction tires are not about performance for those who purchase them, and yes I too can say that from experience. It is about restoring the vehicle as close as one can giving the current available materials, plain and simple to be as delivered as when new. Yes I too even have a few trophies for my effort as well.     

[bobg1951chevy]

Once again, the original question was only asking if a deduction would occur for radial tires, when being judged.