Judging criteria at small unsanctioned shows

[Xander Wildeisen]

You think the Germans are hard to beat. My wife is German, The good thing is you never have to guess where you stand.

[Buffalowed Bill]

I fully agree that the trophy dash at local shows is silly, but without the trophies how could the show sponsors hope to get the participants to pay to show their cars? Everyone has a different motivator. If the small show formula works to keep people excited, who an I to argue! I stopped showing at these events when the sponsors started charging the participants. Now I just take a car and park it adjacent to the show venue, enjoy the show and leave whenever I want. 

[ch1929]

That's why you have to love Das Awkscht Fescht at Macungie. A lot of great cars, good conversations and no trophies!

[DAVE A]

And yet Dad Awscht Fescht has been declining for years.  We sit every year and debate how to get back to the numbers of the glory days.  Happy to hear suggestions!!

[John_S_in_Penna]

37 minutes ago, DAVE A said:

And yet Dad Awscht Fescht has been declining for years.  We sit every year and debate how to get back to the numbers of the glory days.  Happy to hear suggestions!!

 

"Disappointing" numbers at Macungie means perhaps 1100 antique cars?

It's still better than any other local show I know of.  What was its peak?

And you couldn't choose a better setting:  in a park with mature trees,

music in the band shell, big craft show.

 

I suggest you start another thread, Dave, specific to your show.

You'll get much more focused attention then--and more

disparate comments than you know what to do with! 

Edited September 8, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[61polara]

6 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

I fully agree that the trophy dash at local shows is silly, but without the trophies how could the show sponsors hope to get the participants to pay to show their cars? Everyone has a different motivator. If the small show formula works to keep people excited, who an I to argue! I stopped showing at these events when the sponsors started charging the participants. Now I just take a car and park it adjacent to the show venue, enjoy the show and leave whenever I want. 

Bill,

I resent organizations who charge me to show my car and let the public in free so they can give the money away.  If my car is used as a fund raising event I expect to be paid for it or a contribution letter from the organization.  If it is a legitimate 501(c)(3) organization and the fundraising is from an admission fee I'll participate or if the admission fee is a direct contribution to the nonprofit organization I'll show.  Our local new car show contributes a nice sum each year to our AACA Region Scholarship Fund and I gladly participate in that display.

[JV Puleo]

I guess this shows just how far out of the loop I am – not having had a running old car in close to 30 years. The only show in my area I even bother to attend charges admission to the general public. I don't even know if they charge the car owners, but I seem to remember it was slightly more, supposedly to cover the trophies or some other expenses. In any case, because the parking is some distance from the show field, it was worth the extra money not to have the long hike. It used to be run by the local VMCCA chapter but that club is so moribund in my area that it was taken over by the Rotary Club. Based on what's been said here, I have to give them credit for at least sharing the expense burden with the public. I would not participate in a show where I had to pay but the spectators didn't. I wonder if they expect the DJ to pay to bring his wretched loud speakers and pop music?

[GMPARTSMAN]

I used to work on car show organization, judge and occasionally show my cars but quit all that in the early 2000's.

 

If I want to argue with people I'll run a for sale ad in Craigslist or have a garage sale........ 

 

Seriously though, the last two shows I worked at we went to participant judging. Then if anybody had a complaint about not winning a trophy we could say " see your fellow participants".

 

Last judged show I worked was taken over by outside interests. It originally was a community event, 600 average car turnout. Money went to the fund to perpetuate the event. Old name music acts was a big draw.

One year we were "gifted" with a large cash (10K) donation by a very large corporation with no strings attached on how to use it.  Minority of the board wanted to improve the goodie bags and upgrade the awards. Majority wanted to give cash awards with trophies. We argued that this would change the flavor of the show and not for the better. The event chairperson wanted to "take it up a notch" so they did. 

 

Please note that I brought up the fact of "what happens if this corporation does not participate in the future?" and I was told that it was ASSURED  that it would be continued.

 

Well the "oohs and ahhs" during awards was expected. Participants were told "wait until next year it'll be bigger and better". 

 

Guess what happened the next year? The ASSURED participation was cut off as the company was bought out and the new owners did not see the value in participating. That year was interesting, nothing was said on entry forms about any changes and some participants got downright nasty when they found out there were no checks, just cheezy trophies that year. 

 

Not for just that reason but that was the last year that I worked on the committee. The organizers ran the whole thing into the ground. It's pretty bad when that last  year I was there they  could not even give the workers bottled water like in previous years even though we were on the asphalt thirteen or more hours running the event But the top people had a VIP area for their use.........

Edited September 10, 2016 by GMPARTSMAN (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

 

 

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein
 

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."  George Bernard Shaw
 

"Some people live more blissful lives than I." Just a guy at a car show.

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[zdillinger]

Took my '39 Packard to a local, unsanctioned show yesterday. Took home the top honors (#1 of the Top Ten) over an immaculate '65 Biscayne, a beautiful numbers matching '70 Hemi Challenger, a beautiful '57 T Bird and a number of other nice cars. My car was the oldest by 20 years (unless you count the fake '14 Stutz next to me).

 

So at least in my hometown of Charlotte, MI there is hope for a pre-war car against "muscle" cars. Not that I care about trophies, though I like being able to say my "award-winning '39 Packard... Even in jest...

Edited September 11, 2016 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[padgett]

Are a couple of "cars and coffee"s near (before 90) and a few major events (e.g. Turkey Rod Run up to Daytona) after it cools off. Late Mustangs tend to be the majority of the participants. Of course I remember GTOs being "too new" for POCI.

[DAVE A]

On 9/7/2016 at 6:03 PM, Matt Harwood said:

 

OK, maybe I'll come with one of my boys--it'd be nice to meet you there. I'll bring something ridiculous, like:

 

 or  or 

 

Or maybe I'll take it seriously and bring the '41 Buick limo or this (which I just acquired yesterday):

 

Just curious Matt as to why you think bringing a Crosley to a car show is "ridiculous"?  I think I am offended! 

[Matt Harwood]

55 minutes ago, DAVE A said:

Just curious Matt as to why you think bringing a Crosley to a car show is "ridiculous"?  I think I am offended! 

 

Really?!?

 

While I meant no offense, you don't think a little tiny car built by a refrigerator manufacturer with mustard and ketchup coloring, bug-eyed headlights, and a giant chrome eagle hood ornament is just a wee bit silly?

 

And "ridiculous" doesn't mean unlovable or that nobody should collect or enjoy them. There's not a single car in my showroom that I don't appreciate on some level--I don't deal in trash and I don't deal in cars that I don't like. So I'm sorry I offended you, but it wasn't intended that way. I sure hope guys who like pickup trucks aren't upset, either.

 

The Power Wagon is ridiculous, too. Awesome, but ridiculous. So please don't be offended, the Crosley is in good company.

[John_S_in_Penna]

I'm pretty sure he was kidding about being offended.

That sounded like mock outrage to me!

[zipdang]

The more "ridiculous" the better in my book. My little '67 Fiat Giardiniera got more attention than the Lamborghini two cars over at a show. I got an award, it didn't!

[A. Ballard 35R]

Let's not forget, the Crosley Hotshot is generally considered to be the first post war American sports car.

[K8096]

Well, I went to the show today.   Over 300 cars, but a little light on prewar stuff.   Here are some highlights.   

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

Nice to see Trefney's Rolls is still around. My day didn't work out as planned, couldn't make it, although the weather was just gorgeous! I heard they cancelled judging, is that true?

[K8096]

Yes, there was no judging at all which was fine by me.   They did have cars parked in classes so like cars were parked together.   I had no problem with that.   

 

Yes, Jack's Rolls has a new owner.  The person who bought it from his estate 10 or so years ago is too old to drive it now, so it got sold again.   No matter who owns it, it will always be Jack's car.    

[tomcarnut]

One solution to this is go on a tour. Shows are boring and for wimps, the real test is driving your car on tour which I just did Labor Day weekend in 1911 Model T Ford with 107 other T's on the Ohio Model T Jamboree in Findlay, Ohio. We did over 200 miles over two and half days. Just had to put up at stops with people asking, Where's the car show?. We do local AACA tours from April to October and sometimes March and November. They take some work to put together with interesting stops to see collections, museums and other places of interest, require good directions and coordinating lunch stops or Ice cream. They are a lot more fun for non-car fan passengers than sitting around all day waiting on a plastic trophy and getting pissed off if your car does not win. Doubly so if you are in charge and you have to deal with pissed off people.

Tom Muth

Cincinnati, Ohio

[Restorer32]

It amuses me how violently against judging some people can be. Here's an idea. If you don't like judged shows don't attend judged shows. No reason to denigrate the thousands of hobbyists who do enjoy having their cars judged. Believe it or not it is possible to both tour and take your car to judged shows. The hobby is broad enough for everyone.

[Tim Wolfe]

Just attended a Pre War car show put on by The Franciscan Sisters For The Poor in Cincinnati, Ohio. What a terrific show! All old original cars ( so we knew what to expect) They had a DJ playing music that wasn't loud and you could talk to people and enjoy the "oldies" music. The people did all the judging of the cars as to what they liked. If I take my car to AACA or a Concours show, I know what to expect, at a local show one never knows how it will be judged. So, choose your shows and don't be upset if you don't win. Enjoy the hobby, talk to the people, share your knowledge about the cars. If not, you are in the wrong hobby.

[tomcarnut]

1 hour ago, Tim Wolfe said:

Just attended a Pre War car show put on by The Franciscan Sisters For The Poor in Cincinnati, Ohio. What a terrific show! All old original cars ( so we knew what to expect) They had a DJ playing music that wasn't loud and you could talk to people and enjoy the "oldies" music. The people did all the judging of the cars as to what they liked. If I take my car to AACA or a Concours show, I know what to expect, at a local show one never knows how it will be judged. So, choose your shows and don't be upset if you don't win. Enjoy the hobby, talk to the people, share your knowledge about the cars. If not, you are in the wrong hobby.

Tim,

 

While I prefer touring the backroads, I do some some shows including the Sisters of the Poor show last year in my 1912 McLaughlin-Buick. Nice show. I always let kids sit in the car for pictures and try to blow the bulb horn which is my main purpose for going to show or cruise ins. My wife made up signs telling the reasons why most pre1915 cars are right hand drive, what the carbide tank is for and other stuff I have to explain multiple times. I also like to tell the guys and gals with their self starters that they are wimps and that they should have to hand crank their car. I also have shown my 1984 Tioga Motorhome at Hershey and Auburn dressing up as "Cousin Eddie with sewer hose and all" Got my HPOF Original award! While I like to make some light hearted fun of car shows, AACA shows are best run non-mark option. I plan take some of my other cars the next few years to Auburn or others for HPOF, 100 year status and maybe one for judging. I also use these opportunities to recruit members to AACA and our local activities. We do monthly events in Southwest Ohio near Sidney and would love to have you join us and learn about the joy of moving car shows know as Tours.

 

Tom Muth

Cincinnati, Ohio

[Annie G]

2 hours ago, tomcarnut said:

One solution to this is go on a tour. Shows are boring and for wimps, the real test is driving your car on tour which I just did Labor Day weekend in 1911 Model T Ford with 107 other T's on the Ohio Model T Jamboree in Findlay, Ohio. We did over 200 miles over two and half days. Just had to put up at stops with people asking, Where's the car show?. We do local AACA tours from April to October and sometimes March and November. They take some work to put together with interesting stops to see collections, museums and other places of interest, require good directions and coordinating lunch stops or Ice cream. They are a lot more fun for non-car fan passengers than sitting around all day waiting on a plastic trophy and getting pissed off if your car does not win. Doubly so if you are in charge and you have to deal with pissed off people.

Tom Muth

Cincinnati, Ohio

 

There are no tours for my "new" truck. And those are a few days where many of us don't have that kind of time... Yet

[tomcarnut]

30 minutes ago, AnniesSS said:

 

There are no tours for my "new" truck. And those are a few days where many of us don't have that kind of time... Yet

Annie,

 

We have had 80's and 90's Suburban's on local or regional tours. I have 1996 Buick Roadmaster that I use to tow that I took on couple tours this year to test out the AC on hot day and keep my wife happy as the other cars have 4/60 AC. We and most AACA Regions and Chapters folks to drive anything on a tour going modern if the old car is broken down. My first car is 1966 Impala Convt that I bought in 1980 and started touring on AACA events about 1987. I am testing out the Roadmaster for towing but may consider an older Suburban or pickup like yours that I can run historical plates and tour with A/C. It is only in National tours or shows that your car must be certain age. You could take you anything semi stock on the Founders tours that is 25 years old that your Suburban fits. After taking part in good tour, you will be hooked and make time. As far as shows, I hope to see yours at Hershey.

 

Tom Muth

Cincinnati, Ohio

[Restorer32]

Speaking of Suburbans we just contracted to restore a '65 Suburban Ambulance.

[MCHinson]

1 hour ago, AnniesSS said:

 

There are no tours for my "new" truck. And those are a few days where many of us don't have that kind of time... Yet

 

Annie,

 

There are some tours that are restricted to particular years but there are also some that are open to any vehicle 25 years and older. Your Suburban would be eligible for the Founders Tour or Divisional Tours. Your Suburban should also be eligible for NC Region Tours.

 

The Divisional Tours are also shorter which would require you taking less time off of work.

[60FlatTop]

Small showing, one judge, one spectator, one folding chair, two free iced teas, no music, no trophies. It was the seventh day and I rested. And it was very good.

 

But then, I needed to share it...with a Packard.

Bernie

[joe_padavano]

5 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Small showing, one judge, one spectator, one folding chair, two free iced teas, no music, no trophies. It was the seventh day and I rested. And it was very good.

 

 

Why did you hide the best-looking cars in the back?

[60FlatTop]

" Why did you hide the best-looking cars in the back? "  Almost a judgement call. Judge meant.

 

See post #1. That picture was a deliberate plant. I was grinning when I put it there. I had three possibles for that comment, but you weren't one.  

 

Bernie

[DAVE A]

On 9/11/2016 at 1:27 PM, Matt Harwood said:

 

Really?!?

 

While I meant no offense, you don't think a little tiny car built by a refrigerator manufacturer with mustard and ketchup coloring, bug-eyed headlights, and a giant chrome eagle hood ornament is just a wee bit silly?

 

And "ridiculous" doesn't mean unlovable or that nobody should collect or enjoy them. There's not a single car in my showroom that I don't appreciate on some level--I don't deal in trash and I don't deal in cars that I don't like. So I'm sorry I offended you, but it wasn't intended that way. I sure hope guys who like pickup trucks aren't upset, either.

 

The Power Wagon is ridiculous, too. Awesome, but ridiculous. So please don't be offended, the Crosley is in good company.

Yes Matt just kidding.  With 15 Crosleys in house a guy has to have a sense of humor.  However, I have spent a great deal of time and money generating respectability for cars built by one of America's foremost industrialists.  A company that brought you the first post war American sportscar, a car that won the first race at Sebring, the first American car with 4 wheel disc brakes and a number of automotive firsts deserves respect.  By the way the hood ornament was not meant to be an eagle.. If I have my facts correct it was to be a quail.   

        I mean you no disrespect and would be happy to help you with finding a buyer for this fine little car if you like. Let's not tie up this thread, feel free to contact me at my personal email tmkldwwj@yahoo.com.

 

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

 

[capngrog]

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 4:27 PM, Matt Harwood said:

 

Really?!?

 

While I meant no offense, you don't think a little tiny car built by a refrigerator manufacturer with mustard and ketchup coloring, bug-eyed headlights, and a giant chrome eagle hood ornament is just a wee bit silly?

 

And "ridiculous" doesn't mean unlovable or that nobody should collect or enjoy them. There's not a single car in my showroom that I don't appreciate on some level--I don't deal in trash and I don't deal in cars that I don't like. So I'm sorry I offended you, but it wasn't intended that way. I sure hope guys who like pickup trucks aren't upset, either.

 

The Power Wagon is ridiculous, too. Awesome, but ridiculous. So please don't be offended, the Crosley is in good company.

Refrigerator manufacturer?  Really?!?  You apparently know nothing about Powel Crosley.  And don't forget Ferruchio Lamborghini who started out manufacturing tractors and ... GASP! ... air conditioners.

 

Just for form's sake, I'm sorta offended,

Grog

[Matt Harwood]

The difference here (that I should have been more clear about) is between "professional" judging such as the AACA or a marque club and "amateur" judging at a local show. Now there might be some knowledgeable guys at a local show, but for the most part, you've got the volunteers you've got and you run with it. That's why everyone gets confused and I think that's the crux of the original question in this thread--who sets the standards at that level? I'm not against judging, but at the local level where every event feels like they have to hand out trophies like it's a little league baseball team, it gets kind of nutty. Everyone THINKS their car is a trophy winner, and if it's good enough, it'll win at the national level in AACA competition. However, that's no guarantee of winning at the Bob's Country Bunker Cruise Night where the judge might be the car owner's brother or he might think that lots of chrome = show quality car or something like that. The problem isn't judging itself, but the lack of standards at the "amateur" level and yes, it can be frustrating. That's what makes people lose their minds at trophy time. You don't see that at AACA shows where there's an accepted set of rules that everyone plays by.

 

I also think we have "trophy creep" where there's a lot of soft judging going on in areas where it should be more stringent. Those of you in the CCCA have surely seen in the Bulletin and The Classic Car magazines reviews of various Grand Classic events where there's page after page of "100 Point Classics." That's great and all, but I know more than a few of those cars and they're not perfect. 100-points means absolutely perfect, no? I'm not a popular judge because I don't believe in a 100-point car, but the way the CCCA hands out trophies for perfection (I know of one "100 point" car that has nearly 30,000 tour miles on it--WTF?) only diminishes the value of the awards themselves. Sure, everyone gets to beam with excitement that their car is perfect (they have to know it's not), but when 22 cars out of 69 at a Grand Classic get perfect scores, something is very amiss. My 1929 Cadillac is, in my opinion, an 85 point car. Nevertheless, I bet I could get my CCCA National First Prize and Premier with it by doing nothing more than cleaning the engine a little bit.

 

Judging is very hard and it feels unkind to be tough on someone else's car. I like to think that I'm tough but fair, and my knowledge is good enough that I don't penalize cars for things that can't reasonably be done. But handing out what amounts to participation trophies just to make fragile egos feel better isn't doing the hobby any favors. I will stand by my comment that if you're running a local show and allowing all types of cars to participate, everyone will have a better time if you skip the judging. Save it for the clubs with experience and standards and trained judges, who, if they really want to have any credibility, should make perfection exceptional, not routine.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

I must agree that even within AACA there has been "trophy creep". I am also a fair but tough judge. I want an AACA award to continue to mean something. Last home town show I was asked to judge I took along the town secretary and asked her to pick the winners. Turned out she was partial to red Camaros. People are funny. In our town we have a house decorating contest each Christmas. A few years ago we almost had a fist fight at the awards ceremony. The irritated citizens only calmed down when we threatened to call the police.

[padgett]

+1 Matt. Problem is that most car owner's know what is wrong with their cars but don't mind when they are not noticed. OTOH I have seem members of the big buck crowd get incensed when I tell them their repopped oil filter is beautiful except for the logo being upside down. (happened)

[Xander Wildeisen]

"Trophy Creep" I love it! Sounds like a guy out of the 80's with a mullet and toilet paper stuck to his shoe, driven a Subaru Bratt with his buddies in the plastic jump seats in the bed. Or a creepy guy staring at some other guys  younger wife. To funny, That one made me laugh.

[Annie G]

On 9/12/2016 at 2:05 PM, MCHinson said:

 

Annie,

 

There are some tours that are restricted to particular years but there are also some that are open to any vehicle 25 years and older. Your Suburban would be eligible for the Founders Tour or Divisional Tours. Your Suburban should also be eligible for NC Region Tours.

 

The Divisional Tours are also shorter which would require you taking less time off of work.

 

Thanks  It's more the time-frame that's tough.  A car show is "usually" one day. I'd love to go to every show and tour, but this whole work-thing gets in the way of my fun