ericmac Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 I previously started a discussion specific to the Cooper Duesenberg SSJ and the price it might reaize at auction. That conversation rapidly blossomed into a broader discussion about Duesenberg as a marque and various cars at Pebble Beach. Given that the show and Parade is today in Auburn, IN it seemed fitting to begin a conversation about a car there. A Bowman and Schwartz modified sedan (which I think started life as a Derham bodied car) will be auctioned today. In my opinion it is not a super attractive car but it is still a Duesenberg and as such a car worthy of living in my garage. Preauction estimates say the car will garner bids of $750-900,000 though I think it will bring in mor like $550-675,000. What do the rest of you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 I hope this thread brings in more Duesenberg history just like the other one, hope to see photos of this car as well. Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 I will let you know what it brings,we are here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Anyone have a picture of it ? - Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Whenever you have a Dusenberg discussion, it's important to include the J number at all times, and if possible the chassis number also. Most hard core people use the J number for a description only.......... I need both the J number and body style called out, as I am not as accomplished or well read on them as others. The Auburn Fall Meet is one of the top five car events in the world........a big statement but true. I plan on attending next year with a car.........not sure which one yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericmac Posted September 1, 2018 Author Share Posted September 1, 2018 3 hours ago, edinmass said: Whenever you have a Dusenberg discussion, it's important to include the J number at all times, and if possible the chassis number also. Most hard core people use the J number for a description only.......... I need both the J number and body style called out, as I am not as accomplished or well read on them as others. The Auburn Fall Meet is one of the top five car events in the world........a big statement but true. I plan on attending next year with a car.........not sure which one yet. Ed, You are correct on all counts here. The car is #2143, J 118. I do know better but was lazy this time. I have not been to ACD in 6 years due to family events. A real thrill was the year I drove car #2589, J 564 over the weekend. It still was wearing its first repaint and looked, well, a bit shabby. That only added to the appeal of the car. It would be interesting to consider what people think are the top car events in the US. I personally would suggest to following based upon where I have been. 1. Pebble Beach 2. Amelia Island 3. Hershey 4. Old Car Festival 5. St. Johns 6. The Elegance at Hershey 7. The AACA Grand National (wherever it is) 8. Auburn Fall 9. Motor Muster 10.Open to ideas Others? I tried to load a photo of the car but that was beyond my phone abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Is this it? http://www.coachbuild.com/2/index.php/encyclopedia/coachbuilders-models/item/bohman-schwarz-duesenberg-j-berline-j118-2143 Plenty more photo''s on the above web site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Here's the car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 (edited) 670 thousand Edited September 1, 2018 by old car fan (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) Interesting car, and I remember seeing it in person sometime over the years. Classic example of a car that could be made better by a few small changes. Toss the spot lights in the trash, what were they thinking with them? The red wheels........needs to be body color. Black walls would also make a nice change up, for a new look. Color on a closed car can be overpowering, and if justified a new paint scheme could also be more flattering. The padded top would also need some consideration. I like closed cars, and with a bit of change up, the new owner could have a new look without breaking the bank. Edited September 2, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Henderson Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, 1937hd45 said: I hope this thread brings in more Duesenberg history just like the other one, hope to see photos of this car as well. Bob Photos of it as the Derham original and later as remodeled by Bohman and Schwartz are on p 164, Roe. Can't get my camera to cooperate. I hope someone will post it. Edited September 2, 2018 by Dave Henderson (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Are the fenders on this car an update or original to the original build? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericmac Posted September 2, 2018 Author Share Posted September 2, 2018 50 minutes ago, Dave Henderson said: Photos of it as the Derham original and later as remodeled by Bohman and Schwartz are on p 164, Roe. Can't get my camera to cooperate. I hope someone will post it. Here are the photos you had in mind. I would return it to the original configuration if it was my car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) I'dI'd be happy to help Thank you! this car looks 100% better as built, this photo explains why the front door looks so out of shape in the modified version. Bob Edited September 2, 2018 by 1937hd45 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Here is the deal on Bohman and Schwarz: 1. 25% of the cars look as good or better (Think Sam Mann Clark Gable car) 2. 25% of the cars look 0k 3. 25% of the cars look worse 4. 25% of the cars are a crime against humanity (see subject car). 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 I find myself hoping that this thread also goes about twenty or more pages, lots of pictures (current and old) of a dozen or more different cars, with discussions of them all! You guys keep this up? And I will have to ask Santa for a really great reference book for the marque! So, okay then. Which one should I ask for? I know that there was a short discussion of the books near the middle of the other (Cooper) thread. I may have to go look for it in the wee hours of the morning. And my opinion on the above car? Definitely it looked MUCH better in its original form. But then I do lean heavily toward earlier cars in general. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) I read a quote recently from very early Duesenberg driver and collector Melvin Clemons from the early 1950’s. Melvin owned about a dozen Model J’s and drove them regularly. He said.....”Bohman & Schwartz were wonderful at making a Duesenberg look like a 39 Plymouth.” It’s interesting how in the early days of the hobby cars were regularly passed over as undesirable and wouldn’t even be considered a collectible due to modifications back in the day......now today SOME will bring a premium. I also prefer earlier cars.....1929 to 1932 is my personal sweet spot. It would be interesting to compare values of two identicle cars today, one as built and the other as modified by B & S. Very few early custom coachbuilt cars had poor lines, very few. By 1933 they were occasionally building some very ugly automobiles. I don’t want to call out any particular cars as to avoid offending past or current owners........ Edited September 2, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Here is an unpublished photo of J118 from one of my albums. I think we should have a dedicated Duesenberg thread in either the CCCA forum or the ACD forum. Probably the later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) There is a two volume book that just came out on the History of Thompson raceway here in Connecticut, this photo caught my eye with the top of the hood exhaust outlet. It is the then owned Henry Austin Clark Duesenberg INDY car. It was all apart and in the back corner of a local shop when I started working there in 1970.Today it is owned and vintage raced by Joe Freeman of Raceway Press, the car finished 2nd in the 1919 INDY 500. I got to ride shotgun through the back roads around Lime Rock a few years ago thanks to the engine builder David Greenlees. Bob Edited September 2, 2018 by 1937hd45 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 The Mullin Collection in Oxnard, Ca. is quite nice the featured car display rotated over the year to make your visits different. Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Besides any AACA touring event I would think an event to view is the Goodwood Festival of Speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericmac Posted September 2, 2018 Author Share Posted September 2, 2018 I made a decision to restart this discussion under general discussion because it is the same place where I started the first thread. In the spirit of being non-territorial, I would be happy to move to the ACD thread. What say the rest of you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, ericmac said: I made a decision to restart this discussion under general discussion because it is the same place where I started the first thread. In the spirit of being non-territorial, I would be happy to move to the ACD thread. What say the rest of you? NO! NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The main fault of this website it compartmentalizing every thing. It willl loose 99% of the posters if they move it on you. Bob Edited September 3, 2018 by 1937hd45 (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Keep it here. It is a general interest/posting topic that has some specific car information for all to enjoy dave s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_a Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) A great Duesenberg was on the block at the Worldwide Pacific Grove sale August 23rd: a 1922 Model A Sport Phaeton. Chassis No 798, Millspaugh & Irish coachwork. photo from Autotraders Edited September 3, 2018 by jeff_a (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Henderson Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Dave Fields said: Automotive Quarterly's E L Cord book originally sold for over $1,000, but there are copies available either at Amazon or Ebay for under $100.00. A small Duesenberg book, The Duesenberg by Steinwedel and Newport, Duesenberg , the mightiest American Motor Car by Elbert is also an inexpensive book. You should be able to buy all three for under $100 total. I might mention that while It is reported that Duesenberg only supplied chassis, La Grande was part of the E L Cord empire and supplied some of the more spectacular bodies for Duesenberg. According to the E L Cord book, at times La Grande supplied bodies on Duesenberg chassis before there was a buyer. B & S bodies are usually quite graceful, so this body isn't in keeping with their styling ability. B & S was one of the early builders of Custom cars, not in the classic sense, but in the Rod and Custom sense, creating a bridge between the the customs accepted by AACA and CCCA and those more in line with the L A Roadster show or Hot August Nights. AQ's E. L. Cord book was introduced in 1985 and was priced at $395. It was a leather bound limited edition 8 pound coffee table book with a slip case and all the trimmings. (In the aftermarket I understand copies have been re sold for as much as $1,000.) NOTE THIS: Advertising stated that "The destruction of all printing plates has been legally witnessed and attested to by an officer of the Court of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania", clearly an inference that no more would ever be printed. However, despite those assurances there appeared a scaled-down edition of the book, with advertising saying "there is no compromise of content, quality of paper, use of color, or publishing quality", and this time it was described as "from the AQ-Magnificent Marque Series", priced at $195 (and apparently is still being remaindered in the $100 range.) Amazing! Edited September 2, 2018 by Dave Henderson (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdc Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Bohman & Schwartz always had a bit of a boxed style but to each their own, but on the Derham body it looks like everything from the b-pillar back was an afterthought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Dave....missed seeing you on the field. Was by our car virtually the entire time. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_a Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Dave Fields said: Jeff, I saw the two J's at Pacific Grove, but somehow missed this one. Easy to do as there was an overload of things to do and see that week. Dave, I wasn't there, but guess you could only see every car at the Concours and sales of Monterey Week with great difficulty, like trying to see all the booths at Hershey(I only saw 8 the year I went), or all the exhibits at all the museums on the mall in Washington, D.C. On the Worldwide Auctioneers catalog, there are a couple of photographs showing the SOHC straight eight engine of the A Duesenberg. Like a Silver Ghost, a 1918 Winton, a Bugatti, a Model J, or a 60-Six Peerless, a work of art. Edited September 4, 2018 by jeff_a (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericmac Posted September 4, 2018 Author Share Posted September 4, 2018 I agree that the Model A Duesenberg has the misfortune of being overlooked because the Model J was so incredible. The first Duesenberg I remember seeing in person was a Model A Roadster which was at a car show in St. Ignace, MI. This would have been 1975 or 1976. At the time the old brown car did nothing for me. Today I wish I had a photo of it. In about 1978 I got to see my first J, a LeBaron dual cowl pheaton, car 2133 J-111, and that fixed my impression of Duesenbergs forever! At the time it was black with red coves. Still an impressive looking car. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Back in the mid 1980’s I became good friends with Fred Roe, the first true Duesenberg historian, and one day over lunch he turned and said to me........back in the late thirties and most of the forties we only wanted the early cars(meaning Model A Duesenbergs) we wanted a light weight car we could easily modify into a speedster or racer and we didn’t even bother looking at the “J’s”. My guess is that a Model A could be bought for twenty five or fifty dollars......and a “J” would still have been 300-600 at the time. The “A” was powerful and more like W.O. Bentley three litre, Bugatti, or something similar. Much better chassis to modify into a weekend toy. Even late in life he still had a very special place in his heart for the “A”, even though he was mostly known for the Model J. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 (edited) Seen on tour in Cape Cod this week, J-357. Great CCCA three day tour and Grand Classic. Some fantastic cars on the road.......nice turnout and if I read things from the schedule correctly more than half the cars attending the CCCA Grand Classic were participants in the tour.......people are still driving the pre war stuff. Also, they seem to be well sorted........no break downs or cars spotted on the side of the road. No trouble truck, just a bunch of properly prepared cars. Lots of Packards, Cadillacs, Buick, Chrysler, J, Cord, and a few others. Earliest car on tour was a 1925 Cadillac, newest was a 1948 Lincoln. Edited September 7, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 Not a J but very rarely seen on the open road. 1108 Packard, 1934. Fantastic! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericmac Posted September 7, 2018 Author Share Posted September 7, 2018 Wow! Nice. Ed, you get to go to all the cool places. Pebble Beach last week and Cape Cod this week. Life is great. Eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 On 9/1/2018 at 4:07 PM, old car fan said: Here's the car Purchased by a well known gentleman who has owned many fine Model J’s. He is very enthusiastic about his new ride. I look forward to seeing it going down the road in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 It looked a lot better when it was black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Ash Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Here's another Duesenberg, a 1930 Derham-bodied car that was built for Gary Cooper. We saw it Sunday, Sept. 16, at the Heritage Museums and Gardens in Sandwich, MA at their "Cocktails for Cars" event. EdinMass probably saw it the week before. The car had been in the Museum for about 50 years, but had never been run, so they cleaned it up and started it this summer, now drive it around the grounds a bit. The engine runs smoothly and sounds great. Also in attendance were a 1939 Bugatti, Cord Westchester, 1950 Allard K2, the Museum's 1912 Packard Victoria, a bunch of Porsches and Ferraris, Jag XKE, a 1984 Morgan, and my 1948 Studebaker M5 pickup - about 36 cars in all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 ^^^^^^^^^ I've seen that Duesenberg as well on my visit to the collection years ago. I have to ask, who picked the colors and when? I can sort of live with the light green, but the other two just look wrong. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 The colors on the Duesey are hurting my eyes! Horrible............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, mercer09 said: The colors on the Duesey are hurting my eyes! Horrible............ Are the whitewalls too much for you....? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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