Mulling over a barn find

[carbking]

15 hours ago, Bloo said:

 A Quadrajet on the other hand, if it needs any more than a kit and a float, and a lot of them do..... 

 

Quadrajet bodies warp. People cross-thread and strip the fuel inlet.. Throttle shafts (and sometimes the butterflies) often need to be replaced. If the secondaries leak air , the carb  just dumps fuel. 30 years ago there were specialists everywhere who could handle the machine work necessary, and could even straighten castings and provide replacements out of the junkpile if necessary. As far as I know those guys are all retired now. Today I think you would mail it off to a specialist somewhere and hope for the best.

 

Quadrajet bodies warp: True, but not a problem, even though some enterprising individuals made money in straightening castings not requiring straightening (except for cosmetics).

 

People cross-thread and strip the fuel inlet: Also true, a heli-coil fixes this issue permanently.

 

Throttle shafts (and sometimes the butterflies) often need to be replaced: After several thousand Q-Jets, have not seen this. The throttle bodies do wear, and bushings at the local machine shop fixes the issue.

 

If the secondaries leak air , the carb  just dumps fuel: absolutely NO reason they should leak.

 

As far as I know those guys are all retired now: Cliff Ruggles of Cliff's High Performance, who incidentally wrote the book on Q-Jets, is still very much in business, but has a healthy backlog.

 

The major problem with Q-Jets this new are the sensors for the electronic ignitions, and the electronic ignitions themselves. The carbs themselves are quite simple and extremely reliable.

 

It was the 1980's when "band-Aid" smog emission "feedback" sensors and computers were applied to carburetors, that trying to make original carbs work got exceptionally difficult. The dealership service areas were full of these when the cars were new because of driveability issues.

 

Jon.

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by carbking (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

40 minutes ago, carbking said:

: Cliff Ruggles of Cliff's High Performance, who incidentally wrote the book on Q-Jets, is still very much in business, but has a healthy backlog.

 

The major problem with Q-Jets this new are the sensors for the electronic ignitions, and the electronic ignitions themselves. The carbs themselves are quite simple and extremely reliable.

 

The major problem with Qjets is the people who lack the skills or patience to rebuild and tune them properly.  The Qjet is arguably the most advanced four barrel carb ever made.  The triple venturis on the primary side make for very precise low speed mixture control (even without the 1980s electronic versions).  The fact that a single carb design was able to be used on everything from a 230 cu in inline six to a 500 cu in Cadillac motor says a lot about the inherent capability of the design. I've never had an issue with one in over 40 years of driving them.

[padgett]

I used to have a Q'jet on my autocrossing Corvair Corsa. Worked great. Came in 750 and 800 cfm versions. Only problem in a big inch car was the small fuel bowl could empty near the end of a 1/4.. Did need to know how to assemble/disassemble and be gentle or real easy to break the ear off the air horn.

Was just looking for my 76 Seville manual but seems to be AWOL. Bout an inch thick silver book AFAIR.

[joe_padavano]

28 minutes ago, padgett said:

Was just looking for my 76 Seville manual but seems to be AWOL. Bout an inch thick silver book AFAIR.

 

Yep, that's it exactly.

[carbking]

Joe - will not argue about the lack of knowledgeable service techs, but that issue is a part of any facet of our hobby. I might suggest the Carter TQ is in the same class as the Q-Jet; I actually prefer the TQ.

 

With the Q-Jet, a meticulous amateur can acquire the book written by Cliff, and pretty much do ANY tuning necessary; although he/she will probably need to farm out any necessary machine work. Of ALL of the carburetor books I have studied over the last 60 years, Cliff's book is by far the most user-friendly (easiest to understand), and is probably in the top five in content as well. (If one has a masters degree in both math and physics, and really wants to understand how carburetors work, acquire "Weber Carburetors" by John Pascini).

 

Lots of pixels on the internet have been unjustly disturbed with problems with the Q-Jet that are not problems. The body warpage is one such non-problem. While visually the fit looks awful (if the air cleaner is off), the warpage is NOT an issue. The Rochester engineers knew that there exist mechanics that use a 9 foot cheater handle on a 3/4 drive socket to tighten the mounting bolts   and designed the center section (bowl) accordingly. If one will only look, one will see that the sealing ridge on the top of the bowl casting is INSIDE the designed "crush panels". The gasket still seals the two castings even if the castings do warp from over-tightening.

 

Any of you young whippersnappers that are looking for work, there is a huge demand for someone to do carburetors. How long this demand will last (well, I dropped my crystal ball ) so have no clue. One could start with any number of "common" carburetor types (Q-Jet, TQ, AFB, etc. - there seem to be plenty of Holley techs) and specialize. Virtually ALL parts are still available for those three types, other than body castings.

 

Jon.

Edited February 3, 2018 by carbking (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

5 minutes ago, carbking said:

Joe - will not argue about the lack of knowledgeable service techs, but that issue is a part of any facet of our hobby. I might suggest the Carter TQ is in the same class as the Q-Jet; I actually prefer the TQ.

 

Given that it was released a number of years after the Qjet, I've always considered the TQ to be a Qjet ripoff.

 

Yeah, the phenolic bowl may be considered an improvement, but essentially it is a Qjet by any other name.  Of course, all I own are GMs, so the TQ is out of the question for me. Heck, Ford even used the Qjet on the 429 CJ motors.

[padgett]

Well in the '70s about half of the Q'Jets were license built by Carter so no surprise the TQ was a rip off. OTOH the air flow secondaries were a Carter AFB (and think AVS) innovation so a rip of a rip. Jon knows more about this than I do.

 

Found the manual, just misfiled, so here are the pieces of the Seville FI

[joe_padavano]

33 minutes ago, padgett said:

Well in the '70s about half of the Q'Jets were license built by Carter so no surprise the TQ was a rip off. OTOH the air flow secondaries were a Carter AFB (and think AVS) innovation so a rip of a rip.

 

Well, the Rochester 4GC also has an air valve on the secondary side.

[MarkV]

Well folks it was a no go. I hate it when people misrepresent a car. I didn't expect perfect but this car was in bad shape, it was missing the radio, door buttons, antenna, etc. The interior was filthy but most of all it was worn. The paint was shot from years ago. It looks like from the photos that they wiped down the paint with a wet cloth and quickly tool a picture.While any one of these would have been okay I walked. Because honestly I've seen better at the salvage yard. The car had 108k the grandson of the gentleman who owned it had no idea about 5 digit odometers. He was all of 18 or so. Thought he had gold on his hands, he will be lucky not to send it to the scrapper. Oh the door panel was being held up by quarter round.  The windshield had a huge crack and the dash was split in two. Well worn long before it was parked. 

[carbking]

23 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Given that it was released a number of years after the Qjet, I've always considered the TQ to be a Qjet ripoff.

 

Yeah, the phenolic bowl may be considered an improvement, but essentially it is a Qjet by any other name.  Of course, all I own are GMs, so the TQ is out of the question for me. Heck, Ford even used the Qjet on the 429 CJ motors.

 

Joe - Carter and Rochester shared quite a bit of technology during the 1960's and 1970's to the benefit of both companies.

 

And while the Q-Jet was the first spread-bore, I always considered the TQ an improvement to the Q-Jet (even to calling it the "perfect" Q-Jet) rather than a Q-Jet rip-off.

 

Four major improvements off the top of my head:

 

(1) The thermoplastic bowl was good for a 25~30 degree reduction in fuel temperature, resulting in 2~3 percent increase in both power and fuel economy.

(2) The small front bowl of the Q-Jet was replaced with two side bowls, each with more capacity than the Q-Jet bowl, requiring less sophisticated fuel delivery systems for performance vehicles.

(3) Changing the 150 CFM primary side to 200 CFM greatly improved the primary->secondary driveability. Rochester was quick to recognize this, and implemented the same feature on the later Q-Jets.

(4) The placement of two fuel inlet valves above the fuel level replaced a single fuel valve below the fuel level (see number 2 above).

 

I have replaced several hundred Q-Jets (and I REALLY do like Q-Jets) on vehicles that were drivers, always with satisfied customers. When F/M purchased Carter, I bought all of the existing rebuilt Carter performance carburetors (about 1100, mostly TQ's). The 9800s is a great replacement for many 1965~1974 GM applications. The smog legality runs out above 1974. As a licensed shop, I have to be aware of smog requirements. Just about out of all of the TQ's now.

 

I currently have a 850 CFM TQ on my own Pontiac 350 (the Q-Jet has been saved with other removed original parts to go with the car when my heirs sell it).

 

And Ford used a lot of TQ's on performance (non-smog) applications in other parts of the world (Australia).

 

OP - sorry it did not work out for you, sometimes one just has to walk away.

 

Jon.

[RiKi5156B]

I’d be interested in the Cadillac if you aren’t. I’m in Washington state and emissions exempt

[Wheelmang]

Sad ending to a good story!

[MarkV]

Hey if anyone knows of anyone with a brown 1977 seville with a beige/brown leather interior let me know! The problem with this one is that everything was jury rigged, I don't mind dirty, paint doesn't scare me, even interiors but it was clearly abused during its driving era back in 1991 and before. 

[Rusty_OToole]

This tends to back up my assertion that the early Sevilles were much loved by their owners and driven into the ground. I believe a real good, low mileage example would be a rare find. Much rarer than say a 76 Eldorado convertible.

[mike6024]

 

1979 - $900, http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cto/d/cadillac-seville-1979/6468220903.html

 

 

1977 Seville - $3500, http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/d/wilsel-1977-seville/6459839669.html

 

 

[MarkV]

Those unfortunately are 6 hours away I'm in s. Ca. I'm looking for one that is brown with a beige interior

[John_S_in_Penna]

Here's a 1976 Cadillac Seville in exactly the 

color combination you like.  Sometimes, when

your wants are very specific, the cars don't (unfortunately)

drive up to your doorstep.  This one is in Tampa, Florida.

 

http://www.gatewayclassiccars.com/tampa/1976/cadillac/seville-S822.html

 

This one is for sale by a dealer, Gateway Classic Cars,

so the asking price is surely high.  I don't know Gateway,

but I see their ads, and their cars aren't as vastly overpriced

as those of some sellers.

 

What do you think?

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[MarkV]

I'm looking for one this color

[mike6024]

10 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

This one is for sale by a dealer, Gateway Classic Cars,

so the asking price is surely high.

 

At first I thought the price was not disclosed but then I noticed it:

 

1976 Cadillac Seville,  350 cu in (5.7L) 3 Speed Automatic,  $18,595

 

 

[Bleach]

back in the 80's I wanted to get a diesel version so I could swap out the engine for a 454. I lived in CA and diesels at the time were exempt from testing. My idea was to make a sleeper out of one. Someone had done one at the time and was in one of the car magazines.

Too many dreams, too many possibilities, not enough time nor money.

[CarlLaFong]

2 hours ago, Bleach said:

back in the 80's I wanted to get a diesel version so I could swap out the engine for a 454. I lived in CA and diesels at the time were exempt from testing. My idea was to make a sleeper out of one. Someone had done one at the time and was in one of the car magazines.

Too many dreams, too many possibilities, not enough time nor money.

I think it was Roger Penske that did the one in the magazines. Of course, it was a meticulous job

[C Carl]

Back in the '80s it might have been better to go 500 cu in Cad. The 500 is lighter , I think by about 150# (!) , and that would keep the Seville a Cadillac.   - Cadillac 

[Bleach]

Yes the 500 would be a torque monster but there was more speed equipment available for the 454 in the 80's.

If I were to think about doing something like this today, I would use a Vortec LT-1.

[junkyardjeff]

Many years ago I was at a junkyard in Northern Michigan and I seen a 350 Olds motor that had a throttle body and injectors in the intake and would that have been a Seville motor.

[chistech]

So, judging by the condition of the car you described, you found a "barn"  instead of it being a barn find!

[Bloo]

Yes, there are some Bosch parts. Here is the story as it was told back in the day (I cant prove any of this):

 

Bendix developed Electronic Port Fuel Injection in the late 50s as "Electrojector". It was installed on some top of the line Chrysler products and Ramblers. There were issues. The cars were rare in the first place, and most had the fuel injection removed while still under warranty. Very few exist today. After that massive flop, Bendix sold the rights to Bosch for worldwide production EXCEPT the USA. Bosch continued to develop the system until it was practical, and by the late 60s it became D-Jet. When Cadillac came looking for fuel injection in the 70s, Bendix obliged, using some Bosch technology and parts.

[RiKi5156B]

There’s one here in VanWa with a 454 chev in it called Radlcac. No outside mods but really fast.

[Rusty_OToole]

Don't know about the US but here in Canada VW was selling Type 3s with electronic fuel injection from 1968. The injection was by Bosch but it was the Bendix system with improved electronics. Meaning, they used transistors soldered to printed circuit boards instead of tubes. The control box was commonly called a computer but it wasn't. It was an electronic control system. They worked well when they were working but if they gave trouble hardly anyone knew how to fix them including VW mechanics. I got my hands on the factory service manual which was about the size of a paperback book and had no trouble fixing them. They were really pretty simple, I just went by the book and everything worked. For a while I was the VW fuel injection guru.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[cheezestaak2000]

very informative post and replies, especially those relating to the quadra jet carb. the q-jet's biggest enemy was someone detrmined to change the fuel filter that had no clue what a tubing wrench was

 

[carbking]

37 minutes ago, cheezestaak2000 said:

very informative post and replies, especially those relating to the quadra jet carb. the q-jet's biggest enemy was someone detrmined to change the fuel filter that had no clue what a tubing wrench was

 

You are close

 

Factory service literature from Rochester:

 

Jon.