1940 Cadillac V16 Seven-Passenger Imperial Sedan Project

[alsancle]

These are cool but if you need to rebuild that engine you better have a spare 75K hanging around.   There is a reason it is out of the car.

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1940-cadillac-v16-7-passenger-imperial-sedan/

 

This 1940 Cadillac Series 90 is one of 20 examples built with Fleetwood style-number 9033 seven-passenger Imperial Sedan coachwork for the V16 range’s final model year and is said to have been originally owned by the publisher and editor of the Chicago Tribune. The car reportedly moved to California with its second owner before spending time in Michigan and Ohio, where it was purchased by its current owner as a project in 2022. The 431ci L-head 135° V16 features nine main bearings, dual carburetors, twin distributors, and twin fuel pumps and was removed from the car along with the three-speed manual transmission under current ownership. Finished in black, the car is equipped with four-wheel hydraulic drum brakes, independent front suspension, dual side-mount spares, a central partition with a roll-up window, fold-down jump seats, an intercom system, a rear radio, tan cloth rear compartment upholstery, and black leather chauffeur’s compartment trim. This Series 90 Imperial Sedan is now offered at no reserve as a non-running project by the seller on behalf of its owner with uninstalled parts, documents from previous ownership, and an Ohio title.

 

[Matt Harwood]

Brain dead BaT comment about making it run with a small block Chevy in 3...2...

 

I see the idiotic comments about gangsters and The Godfather have already been covered, however. 

[alsancle]

16 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Brain dead BaT comment about making it run with a small block Chevy in 3...2...

 

I see the idiotic comments about gangsters and The Godfather have already been covered, however. 

 

"Someone call Jay" is coming soon.

[phil33]

Million dollar (literally) question: Why was the engine pulled??? 

[Matt Harwood]

52 minutes ago, phil33 said:

Million dollar (literally) question: Why was the engine pulled??? 

$5 says it blowed up and they were planning an SBC transplant...

[trimacar]

Gangster car, fake machine guns, it’ll buff out, ran when  parked, call Jay Leno, there are so many idiotic responses, and the people who make them think they’re being cute and original….far from it.

[CarNucopia]

Let’s not forget bidding the model year: $1,940.

[alsancle]

52 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Gangster car, fake machine guns, it’ll buff out, ran when  parked, call Jay Leno, there are so many idiotic responses, and the people who make them think they’re being cute and original….far from it.

I'm becoming the "get off my lawn" guy.   I want to be charitable but the comments are just stupid.

[George Smolinski]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

$5 says it blowed up and they were planning an SBC transplant...

That being the case, what would be a good economical solution? Would it be better to have the car back on the road with a period Cadillac non-V16?

[theconvertibleguy]

57 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I'm becoming the "get off my lawn" guy.   I want to be charitable but the comments are just stupid.

DOuble digit IQ statements will make people like that, and it's totally logical.

[63RedBrier]

4 hours ago, CarNucopia said:

Let’s not forget bidding the model year: $1,940.

I’d watch BAT a little closer if BAT would block idiots who think they are being so clever when they open the bidding with the year of the car!  Wow!  What a novel idea!

[m-mman]

5 hours ago, trimacar said:

Gangster car, fake machine guns, it’ll buff out, ran when  parked, call Jay Leno, there are so many idiotic responses, and the people who make them think they’re being cute and original….far from it.

I just don’t understand posting a 500 word fictional story with weak unrealistic characters and nary a plot that mentions the car, but has nothing to do with the car in question.

 

Talk about adding nothing to a conversation. 

[alsancle]

11 hours ago, George Smolinski said:

That being the case, what would be a good economical solution? Would it be better to have the car back on the road with a period Cadillac non-V16?

Not really.   The entire point of that car is the engine.  Otherwise you can't tell it from a lower series of which there are still hundreds if not thousands running around.

[CarNucopia]

What would this car be worth if it had a correct, running engine? Also, why is a rebuild so expensive?

[George Smolinski]

24 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Not really.   The entire point of that car is the engine.  Otherwise you can't tell it from a lower series of which there are still hundreds if not thousands running around.

I understand the mystique behind the V16, but given a choice between leaving the car buried in a garage or barn, or having it/seeing it on the road with a period correct 8 or 12, I'll take my second option.

I wouldn't have an extra $75,000 laying around for a rebuild, but if I could buy it right I'd be slammin' an 8 or 12 in it so I could drive it. I think you would get plenty of looks and oooh's & aaaah's. You'd just have to put up with the know-it-alls telling you it's the wrong engine and the upper class looking at you/it like you have leprosy or something because of the engine.

 

[Jim Skelly]

V12 production ended with the 1937 model year.  Someone willing to get the engine rebuilt will get it at a bargain price. 

[vhprs]

Personally.....I see this offering in two worlds.    One which has been voiced ...get it running regards of how we hack it up and 

change it's originality.........or.....preservation for the future.   If this car is scarce...and it is...why not just put the engine back and clean it up for people 100 years from now to see how it was built ?   Which museum starts their cars ?  They display them.

and...100 years from now...it will be interesting to look under the hood and see an original V-16 engine in place....in a nice car..

in a nice setting for the education.   Not just a sign that says...once... it had a V-16  engine.   To me...part of our function is preservation not just...get it running.   Personal opinion of course.  

[m-mman]

1 hour ago, CarNucopia said:

Also, why is a rebuild so expensive?

Engines in Full Classics are exotic designs.  Extremely high tech when new.  The problem today is parts and knowledge, who has them?

 

This is a flathead V type engine that has 135(?) degree V.  All the basic machining that it needs (boring cylinders, line boring bearings, etc) will require very unique setups in the machine shop. Who knows how to do that? Not many today.  
 

And god help you if the machinist gets it wrong and machines something crooked, because……how many V16s have they ever done before? So you take it to one of the few people in the country that have experience.  Then you wait several years for it to be finished. 
 

Parts are nonexistent. Sure pistons can be made, but there are sixteen of them!  Every operation that a V8 needs this engine needs twice.  So at the minimum you are building (paying for) two engines.  

Are there any big parts that need replacing? Cam, crank, heads, etc. Big search finding them, this engine was rare when new.  Nothing is inexpensive. 

 

Nobody would expect a V12 Ferrari rebuild to be cheap. Nobody would except parts for a McLaren to be plentiful.  Exotic Classic engines are in the same league. 

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, CarNucopia said:

What would this car be worth if it had a correct, running engine? Also, why is a rebuild so expensive?

With a brand new engine from an known shop?   70-90K

 

My quote of 75K is based on the 7 year old 65K invoice I saw for the same engine from well known shop.   Perhaps it can be made to run for less.  You need someone that knows what they are doing and until you crack it open who knows?

Edited May 25 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Fully restored and in show-worthy condition, this is an $85,000 car on a good day. 

 

It's a big, frumpy 4-door with a cramped driver's compartment and unremarkable styling other than being HUGE. Good driving manners, but not any better than anything else of the period. Its primary (and perhaps only) real claim to fame is that engine. Without that V16 sitting between the fenders, it's just a big, frumpy 4-door with a cramped driver's compartment and unremarkable styling. An engine swap isn't really the right path with a car like this because it will add zero value and might actually subtract value. There are plenty of V8 versions of this car running around for $35,000 in very good condition.

 

The elephant in the room, of course, is the cost of rebuilding that V16. Why is it so expensive? Because everything inside it must be custom made. Pistons are not available off-the-shelf. I paid roughly $550 per piston for my Lincoln V12, so figure a $10,000 bill just to have the pistons made. Babbitt bearings must be poured and machined precisely, and not just anybody can handle that (or machining for insert bearings). How many machine shops have a crank machine capable of handling a 16-cylinder crankshaft? Valves, valve springs, retainers, and pushrods are all unobtainium and if they're not usable they will have to be made. Again, I had valves custom-made for my Lincoln and the batch cost about $4000. Heck, just a gasket set was $1500!

 

 

Then there's finding a guy who is willing and able to accept a job like this. I bet you can count the shops actually qualified with useful knowledge of the engine on one hand (finding a shop that says, "Hell, it's just a flathead, this'll be easy!" is far, far easier). There are surely special tools involved which, if they're not available, will have to be made. The Lincoln V12 crank has a balancer mounted on the end but inside the block, and pulling it without the special tool can destroy the balancer. What if the block or heads are damaged? I had to find another entire engine from which I could get replacement parts, and a Lincoln V12 is about 5x more common than this V16. 

 

Then there are all the ancillary parts (what, you're going to put an unknown water pump on that rebuilt engine?). Figure another $10-15,000 for rebuilds on all the accessories, carburetors, fuel pumps, etc. (remember that the late Cadillac V16 essentially operates as two separate straight-8s with their own fuel systems). Hardware? Those shiny, correct acorn nuts are like $4 each! You're not going to scrimp there after spending the big bucks everywhere else, right? Is the clutch still good? The radiator? The gas tank? Manifolds OK? You'd better hope so! What about engine mounts? All this little stuff really adds up. I didn't do the math on the dozens of orders from McMaster-Carr, but it was surely a staggering number.

 

So costs a lot because parts and expertise are difficult to find and expensive because of it. 

 

I know Facebook sucks, but here's the best detailed diary of rebuilding a Cadillac V16 I've seen. Look at it and you'll understand the magnitude of the job. He talks about spending a few days just making a tool to disassemble the lifters used in the V16.

 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.705687099452549.1073741838.208236829197581&type=3

 

This poor car in the auction is surely destined for an engine swap at the hands of a non-believer. That's really the only thing that makes sense to 95% of the hobby. And that's where it'll end up because the other choice just doesn't make any sense unless you're absolutely in love with the car--and with finished versions available for less than the cost of the work, well, nobody's going to fall in love. This is sadly a dead-end road.

[alsancle]

Just now, Matt Harwood said:

Fully restored and in show-worthy condition, this is an $85,000 car on a good day. 

 

It's a big, frumpy 4-door with a cramped driver's compartment and unremarkable styling other than being HUGE. Good driving manners, but not any better than anything else of the period. Its primary (and perhaps only) real claim to fame is that engine. Without that V16 sitting between the fenders, it's just a big, frumpy 4-door with a cramped driver's compartment and unremarkable styling. An engine swap isn't really the right path with a car like this because it will add zero value and might actually subtract value. There are plenty of V8 versions of this car running around for $35,000 in very good condition.

 

The elephant in the room, of course, is the cost of rebuilding that V16. Why is it so expensive? Because everything inside it must be custom made. Pistons are not available off-the-shelf. I paid roughly $550 per piston for my Lincoln V12, so figure a $10,000 bill just to have the pistons made. Babbitt bearings must be poured and machined precisely, and not just anybody can handle that (or machining for insert bearings). How many machine shops have a crank machine capable of handling a 16-cylinder crankshaft? Valves, valve springs, retainers, and pushrods are all unobtainium and if they're not usable they will have to be made. Again, I had valves custom-made for my Lincoln and the batch cost about $4000. Heck, just a gasket set was $1500!

 

 

Then there's finding a guy who is willing and able to accept a job like this. I bet you can count the shops actually qualified with useful knowledge of the engine on one hand (finding a shop that says, "Hell, it's just a flathead, this'll be easy!" is far, far easier). There are surely special tools involved which, if they're not available, will have to be made. The Lincoln V12 crank has a balancer mounted on the end but inside the block, and pulling it without the special tool can destroy the balancer. What if the block or heads are damaged? I had to find another entire engine from which I could get replacement parts, and a Lincoln V12 is about 5x more common than this V16. 

 

Then there are all the ancillary parts (what, you're going to put an unknown water pump on that rebuilt engine?). Figure another $10-15,000 for rebuilds on all the accessories, carburetors, fuel pumps, etc. (remember that the late Cadillac V16 essentially operates as two separate straight-8s with their own fuel systems). Hardware? Those shiny, correct acorn nuts are like $4 each! You're not going to scrimp there after spending the big bucks everywhere else, right? Is the clutch still good? The radiator? The gas tank? Manifolds OK? You'd better hope so! What about engine mounts? All this little stuff really adds up. I didn't do the math on the dozens of orders from McMaster-Carr, but it was surely a staggering number.

 

So costs a lot because parts and expertise are difficult to find and expensive because of it. 

 

I know Facebook sucks, but here's the best detailed diary of rebuilding a Cadillac V16 I've seen. Look at it and you'll understand the magnitude of the job. He talks about spending a few days just making a tool to disassemble the lifters used in the V16.

 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.705687099452549.1073741838.208236829197581&type=3

 

This poor car in the auction is surely destined for an engine swap at the hands of a non-believer. That's really the only thing that makes sense to 95% of the hobby. And that's where it'll end up because the other choice just doesn't make any sense unless you're absolutely in love with the car--and with finished versions available for less than the cost of the work, well, nobody's going to fall in love. This is sadly a dead-end road.

 

I'm happy that as a hobbyist I came up with almost the exact same number for value as a professional!

[Terry Y]

18 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

"Someone call Jay" is coming soon.

 

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

With a brand new engine from an known shop?   70-90K

 

My quote of 75K is based on the 7 year old 65K invoice I saw for the same engine from well known shop.   Perhaps it can be made to run for less.  You need someone that knows what they are doing and until you crack it open who knows?

@alsancle  and @Matt Harwood   After laughing to myself about the "call Jay Leno " guy last night, then this morning reading the EXCELLENT posts you both have made today, AJ's overview and Matt's medium dive into the costs and difficulty's of rebuilding an engine of this type, I have come to an ironic conclusion: " Call Jay Leno man is 100% CORRECT !  As shocking as it is, that goof ball is correct. I think Jay still produces his automotive show, now on youtube, this Cadillac V-16  engine rebuild will yield

many hours of content. Digital creators always are looking for the opportunity to make content, and in his case cost means little. Heck, he can probably get a deal on some of it. There is content on having the pistons made, on the babbit bearings, the motor mounts being rebuilt, EVERYTHING Matt so clearly detailed, and more. 

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, Terry Y said:

 

@alsancle  and @Matt Harwood   After laughing to myself about the "call Jay Leno " guy last night, then this morning reading the EXCELLENT posts you both have made today, AJ's overview and Matt's medium dive into the costs and difficulty's of rebuilding an engine of this type, I have come to an ironic conclusion: " Call Jay Leno man is 100% CORRECT !  As shocking as it is, that goof ball is correct. I think Jay still produces his automotive show, now on youtube, this Cadillac V-16  engine rebuild will yield

many hours of content. Digital creators always are looking for the opportunity to make content, and in his case cost means little. Heck, he can probably get a deal on some of it. There is content on having the pistons made, on the babbit bearings, the motor mounts being rebuilt, EVERYTHING Matt so clearly detailed, and more. 

Here is the issue,  and please Jay don't take offense if I'm wrong.  But I believe Jay Leno is what Bill Harrah was 50 years ago.  People wanted Bill to get their car.  Bill was able to get cars that were not for sale or available to anyone else because they wanted the gravitas of telling their friends that Bill Harrah bought their car.   Bill never had to pay retail or close to it and definitely not for something not very rare like this car.

 

So,  for Jay to take this car on it would probably need to be completely free and may even have some cash in the trunk.

[kar3516]

5 hours ago, m-mman said:

Engines in Full Classics are exotic designs.  Extremely high tech when new.  The problem today is parts and knowledge, who has them?

 

This is a flathead V type engine that has 135(?) degree V.  All the basic machining that it needs (boring cylinders, line boring bearings, etc) will require very unique setups in the machine shop. Who knows how to do that? Not many today.  
 

And god help you if the machinist gets it wrong and machines something crooked, because……how many V16s have they ever done before? So you take it to one of the few people in the country that have experience.  Then you wait several years for it to be finished. 
 

Parts are nonexistent. Sure pistons can be made, but there are sixteen of them!  Every operation that a V8 needs this engine needs twice.  So at the minimum you are building (paying for) two engines.  

Are there any big parts that need replacing? Cam, crank, heads, etc. Big search finding them, this engine was rare when new.  Nothing is inexpensive. 

 

Nobody would expect a V12 Ferrari rebuild to be cheap. Nobody would except parts for a McLaren to be plentiful.  Exotic Classic engines are in the same league. 

I’ve worked with large industrial stationary engines for the past 35 years and all of my early automotive hobby exposure was Ford flathead V8 and small and big block Chevy V8 engines.  Until the last few years I had no understanding of the complexity and advanced features of the V12 and certainly V16 engines from Pierce Arrow, Packard, Cadillac, Lincoln, and other premium manufacturers during the 1930s.  I think 95% of “car guys” have zero understanding of how much more complicated the premium line 1930s engines are compared to the plain jane engines of the period.

[edinmass]

Having rebuilt a flat head sixteen, and worked on a handful………one must remember the absolute BEST use of that power plant is as a boat anchor. Fortunately, it will work well in both salt and fresh water. Ahoy! And back to the garage!

[Terry Y]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Here is the issue,  and please Jay don't take offense if I'm wrong.  But I believe Jay Leno is what Bill Harrah was 50 years ago.  People wanted Bill to get their car.  Bill was able to get cars that were not for sale or available to anyone else because they wanted the gravitas of telling their friends that Bill Harrah bought their car.   Bill never had to pay retail or close to it and definitely not for something not very rare like this car.

 

So,  for Jay to take this car on it would probably need to be completely free and may even have some cash in the trunk.

I could not AGREE MORE !   An added benefit Mr. Leno has is he could say(or more likely  his helper could say) "hey, Jay will put you on T.V. selling your car to the one and only: Jay Leno........ The seller thinks--   Gosh, Chip at the country club, Eat your heart out ! 

 

[Terry Y]

52 minutes ago, kar3516 said:

I’ve worked with large industrial stationary engines for the past 35 years and all of my early automotive hobby exposure was Ford flathead V8 and small and big block Chevy V8 engines.  Until the last few years I had no understanding of the complexity and advanced features of the V12 and certainly V16 engines from Pierce Arrow, Packard, Cadillac, Lincoln, and other premium manufacturers during the 1930s.  I think 95% of “car guys” have zero understanding of how much more complicated the premium line 1930s engines are compared to the plain jane engines of the period.

This is very true. As Matt indicated earlier, if a machinist makes even a small error in working with the block or crank, It can be almost insurmountable.   It would be interesting to know what happened to this 16 ?  If it ran out of oil, oh boy.    If it  has "blow- by" , but no spun bearings or cartoonishly worn cylinder walls, and you can do most of the work yourself......  But, then I guess as Don Meredith said," if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we would all have a merry christmas " 

[CarNucopia]

Thanks for the education everyone. Whoever described this Caddy as sad nailed it.

[58L-Y8]

The best this Cadillac can hope for to return to the road powered by a Cadillac engine is a good, strong, garden-variety 346 ci flathead someone is discarding from their resto-rod project.  It will essentially be 75 spec's which, if the owner leaves the hood closed, no one will be the wiser or care.  These late-generation V-16's were a pretty pale effort compared to their predecessors. 

 

Come to think of it, I recall reading those two 161" wb late V-16 Secret Service convertible phaetons had had the flathead V-16's replaced with postwar OHV Cadillac engines to keep them in service until they were replaced by a pair of special 1956 75-based convertible phaetons .  Maybe the Secret Service found those 'boat anchors' were more expense and trouble than they were worth... 

Edited May 25 by 58L-Y8
Addendum comments (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Just do what they would have done in 1941 when it had an engine problem…….dump in a good running V-8 and pretend it’s a 16……….

[BobinVirginia]

10 hours ago, edinmass said:

Just do what they would have done in 1941 when it had an engine problem…….dump in a good running V-8 and pretend it’s a 16……….

That sounds like the best way to actually keep this car from being irretrievably altered. A tasteful close to period caddy engine swap. Keeping it drivable and passing on the original engine with the car to someone that perhaps could one day fix it. I’d much rather see it driven and enjoyed than go into total disrepair being left to rot just because of the engine. Or be cut up into a hotrod. 

Edited May 26 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[Leif in Calif]

2 hours ago, BobinVirginia said:

That sounds like the best way to actually keep this car from being irretrievably altered. A tasteful close to period caddy engine swap. Keeping it drivable and passing on the original engine with the car to someone that perhaps could one day fix it. I’d much rather see it driven and enjoyed than go into total disrepair being left to rot just because of the engine. Or be cut up into a hotrod. 

Makes me think of the people who pay thousands of dollars to have themselves frozen after they die in the hope that future technology will allow them to be thawed and cured.  Given economic trends, not much hope for them or this V-16, but at least it could me cleaned up and put on display. 

[BobinVirginia]

@Leif in Calif

Sad but true. If I could go into a cryogenic freeze, I doubt anyone would be interested in reviving me either! Lol

[Walt G]

A lot of true words and sage advice here from fellows who have been around these cars - working and owning them for more years then most reading this have been in the hobby. thank you A.J., Ed , Matt for the reality check; they did not make this up and are not nay sayers.

the comparison of a "celebrity" name who owns cars to what may or may not be "the" last word of absolute truth.  Before Mr.Leno got the handle of "Mr. Antique Car" guy , person. as is seen here it was Bill Harrah and before that opera star James Melton ( I am sure there are 80% of you wondering who James Melton was).  They did not bask in the limelight of their "fame" as car collectors and enthusiasts. At least Bill Harrah didn't - he was a close friend who I would spend a week every year with hanging out at a car event, he felt so great about the event he even brought along his adopted sons! We also walked the flea market fields of Hershey together.  Just car guys enjoying "old wheels".  Because they have the $ doesn't mean they will over pay (?) more for something, just because they can.

 

Edited May 26 by Walt G (see edit history)

[B Jake Moran]

I do get a chuckle out of the thinking that Wayne Carini and Jay Leno need to buy every old car and save it.  

[Jeff Perkins / Mn]

James Melton predates my involvement in the hobby but I did just finish reading this book:

 

Many years ago I tried to buy this Locomobile. I offered 30K, the seller told me Jay Leno would give them 250K!! OK…I’m out. A year later they sold the car for 22K. When I asked the seller what happened to the Leno deal….I was told he never answered!

 

 

 

 

[George Smolinski]

On 5/25/2024 at 4:15 PM, Terry Y said:

" if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we would all have a merry christmas " 

My dad used to say 2 versions of this -

If a bullfrog had wings he wouldn't bump his a-s on the rocks.

If your aunt had b-lls, she'd be your uncle.

[Terry Y]

Is F for Formal, no rear side windows ?

[alsancle]

9 minutes ago, Terry Y said:

Is F for Formal, no rear side windows ?

 

Formal sedan for 7 passengers.

[alsancle]

Sold for 40K.   I think a fair deal all around.   It is a nice car and perhaps the engine can be fixed without spending the 75K a top shop would charge to do it.