Adding cutting oil to water for coolant

[Studenut1915]

Hi all 

I was thinking running water and cutting oil in my 1915 studebaker. 

Does anyone have a suggestion on the ratio of water to cutting oil?

 

Pat

[ABear]

Why?

 

Whats wrong with using correct anti freeze/water mix?

 

That is what I do in a antique engine I have that uses a gear water pump.. The water and antifreeze acts as a lubricant and already has built in rust inhibitors.

 

Adding cutting oil most likely will alter the cooling capacity properties making it less efficient as a antifreeze/water coolant.

[Steven Meixner]

I would put in a cup at most. Think of it as water pump lube, and rust deterrent.

[ABear]

3 minutes ago, Steven Meixner said:

I would put in a cup at most. Think of it as water pump lube, and rust deterrent.

Which IS some of antifreeze does..

 

Antifreeze also provides freeze protection, something cutting oil mixed in straight water will not do.

 

Antifreeze mixed in proper proportion with water also raises the boiling point of the mix above water alone. Cutting oil mixed with water will not.

 

Commercial antifreeze solutions already have "anti corrosive" and "anti rust" protection already added.

 

Here is what Prestone says..

 

https://prestone.com/product/prestone-all-vehicles-antifreezecoolant-ready-to-use/

 

Optimized formula for All Vehicles; makes, models, years & fluid colors. Our patented technology provides instant protection to all engines, new and old. Optimizes engine temp, prevents freezing, PLUS protects parts from buildup & corrosion. While ordinary antifreeze+coolant only manages 2/3s the job, Prestone’s Total Protection handles the complete job.

    Designed to last and protect vital engine parts for 10 years/300,000 miles.
    Includes patented Prestone Cor-Guard® technology, our best advancement in cooling system parts protection that protects against rust, corrosion, scale, buildup and clogging of all cooling system components.
    Ready to Use formula. Perfect for small volume top-off or complete drain and refill of the cooling system.

 

Use the proper tool for the job instead of guessing and hoping it will work.

 

 

[Grimy]

The anti-freeze aspect is unimportant to me in the SF Bay Area, and my experience is that EG anti-freeze foams at speed in unpressurized systems--even those in good condition, so for the past 20 years I've been using distilled or deionized water plus Pencool (formerly Nalcool), a big rig additive with anti-corrosion, anti-cavitation, and water pump lube properties.  The company ("Penray") suggests Pencool 2000 for water-only systems, and Pencool 3000 for systems using a partial or full (50%) dose of anti-freeze.  I suspect that the additive pack is richer in the 2000 because some additive is already in the anti-freeze.  I'm very satisfied with the performance:  radiators remain clear after as much as 8-10 years when I change hoses as preventive maintenance.  Initial dosage rate is 1 oz per quart of cooling system capacity, with a much, much smaller makeup dose rate.  I add about 2-3 oz to a gallon water jug (25-50% less than initial dose) to carry in the cars as top-off.  I do carry a couple of gallons of 100% EG in the trailer in case a multi-day tour will involve freezing temps overnight.

 

I can't find it locally, so I buy quantities (the 64-oz jug is the most convenient for me) on Amazon.  I'm told that "Fleet-Guard" from Navistar/International dealers is the same thing.

[Bloo]

I have a 1913 Studebaker. Several decades ago, when it was still my dad's car, I tried ethylene glycol in it. It was a disaster. This is an open system, with a motometer on the cap and an overflow tube that exits below the radiator. Was it foaming? Maybe. The old ethylene glycol formulas were bad for that. The vaporized ethylene glycol came out of the cap and the overflow and got all over the windshield where it mixed with road dirt and made it impossible to see. I had to hang my head out the side to see where I was going, and that meant breathing a bunch of ethylene glycol. It's pretty bad for you. It makes you cough a lot and sticks around for a few days. It also got on the paint, which it stained. The red car had pink spots. The spots did disappear finally, but it took about 3 years.

 

I would like to be able to run ethylene glycol because it freezes here and suddenly. The Studebaker gets drained after every outing, and it is a major annoyance. I can't leave the water in it because it might be forgotten and freeze.

 

I would never try ethylene glycol again without a lot of preparation. First I would make sure the packing drip at the water pump is very very slow. It did not take much ethylene glycol to foul the windshield. I would make a seal of some kind for the motometer, because I don't think it has one at all. It would need to seal, yet still come loose easy enough that you could get it off without burning yourself when water needs to be added. I would use Zerex G-05 coolant, as I have found it foams less than the old stuff. Finally, I would put a pipe, fairly large, maybe 3/4" inside the frame rail from the front of the car to the back, and dump the overflow into that so that anything that comes out could not possibly get on the windshield.

 

In the mean time, I'll stick with water.

 

I suspect what is being referred to as cutting oil here is milk oil. Not all cutting oil is water soluble. When I used to use milk oil, it wasn't sold that way. It was a container of "rust inhibitor and water pump lubricant" from the parts store. It was obviously milk oil. I doubt they have it anymore. I think the container was about the size of a pop can or a little smaller.  @edinmass might know how much milk oil to put in. I think he mentioned using it in another thread.

 

[Grimy]

@Bloo try an o-ring on your radiator cap--works on my cars that have male threads on cap.  The o-ring will have enough squish to make a seal.

[Stude Light]

Water does have one huge benefit over 50/50 glycol mix and that is its ability as a heat transfer fluid which is why I use it in several of my early cars. You lose over 20% heat transfer capability with 50/50 EG, which is huge. 
 

Now would I run cutting oil? No, I use No-Rosion for corrosion protection and as a lubricant. I have used it with just water for more than 10 years with excellent results. The downside is there is no freeze protection which isn’t a problem for my particular situation. My LaSalle I run late in the season so I use about 20% glycol to get me down to like 15 deg F protection and only lose around 10% cooling capacity. I use No-Rosion in that car too. Good stuff and designed for this use so there is no guessing and you don’t have to be the chemist nor test engineer.

[Larry Schramm]

I use just regular antifreeze in all of my cars and I have not had a problem.  What ever I can find at the local estate sale as long as it appears to be unused. 

 

If you have foaming there is something that is causing it.  Could be bad water pump packing/shaft with corrosion, a crack in the block, bad head gasket, and the list could go on.  Ethylene glycol does not just foam on its own.  Something is causing the introduction of air into the system.

Edited April 6 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Grimy]

8 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

I use just regular antifreeze in all of my cars and I have not had a problem.  What ever I can find at the local estate sale as long as it appears to be unused. 

 

If you have foaming there is something that is causing it.  Could be bad water pump packing/shaft with corrosion, a crack in the block, bad head gasket, and the list could go on.  Ethylene glycol does not just foam on its own.  Something is causing the introduction of air into the system.

I understand your point, Larry, and I had this discussion with Ed Minnie a few years ago.  Here's my story:  When I got my 1934 Pierce in 2006, it had no more than 200 miles on a boiled out block, new radiator core, non-collapsing lower hose (no more than 4" unsupported segments of hose) and rebuilt water pump with modern seals--and 50% EG no more than one year old.  My first highway trip was 600+ miles to a Pierce meet, and I was having to add 1-1.5 GALLONS of coolant (26 qt system) every 2 hrs at highway speeds (55 mph).  As part of the sorting process, I flushed the system and installed straight distilled water plus a different water pump lube additive.  Great results--didn't push water out.  Topping off this unpressurized system is now 6-8 OUNCES every 600-700 miles.  Same top off amount for my 1930 Pierce.

 

I can't understand it.  Compression is perfect, vacuum too.  I'm 98% sure there are no air leaks.

[ABear]

6 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

If you have foaming there is something that is causing it.  Could be bad water pump packing/shaft with corrosion, a crack in the block, bad head gasket, and the list could go on.  Ethylene glycol does not just foam on its own.  Something is causing the introduction of air into the system.

^^^ THIS ^^^

 

Blaming anti freeze when there is most likely other issues.

 

Can you get it to foam, sure, but it would take something like putting in a blender and whipping a lot of air into it which is not typically be done in a properly functioning cooling system. Something causing cavitation in and around the water pump if there is blockage or water starvation at the pump.. Think trapped air pockets in the block.

[Grimy]

The only variable affecting foam/no-foam in my case is whether there was EG coolant--which was NOT the Zerex.  I understand that *low-silicate* anti-freeze has far less foaming effect but I haven't found it on local shelves.

[ABear]

There are a lot of things that I can no longer "find on the shelf" now days and often have to resort buying from Amazon at exorbitant prices but at least most times Amazon has it when brick and mortar stores have stopped stocking it.

 

Good example of this now days is I had to replace a window in my house due to rotted sill, bought replacement window unfinished since all of the windows in my house are stained and not painted.. Had a small amount of Minwax stain in Honey Pine color.. Both Home Depot and lowes no longer stock that, still can get all the other colors but not that one.. Found it on Amazon at twice the price.

 

Now that I went off on bunny trail, to put things back on the trail.. I was thinking that another possibility or reason for foaming of the antifreeze vs water is cylinder wall cavitation. Typically the cylinder walls are thick enough and the compression is low enough in gas engines there is not enough flex on the cylinder walls to create cavitation bubbles..

 

However, it is very possible that the iron that was used to cast the block and cylinders may vary in mix which affects strength. Add in aging effects, cylinder walls being thinner than optimal or if the cylinders were over bored the walls will flex much more creating little air bubbles on the surface the cylinder inside the water jacket.

 

This now creates another potential issue, those bubbles actually erode the walls thinner and thinner eventually leading to wall failure.. Since straight water clears foam bubbles almost instantly you could have accidentally hidden a potential issue..

 

Ford had that issue with I believe their 6.4L Power stroke engines and as a "fix" they came up with a additive package for the anti freeze that reduces the cavitation on the cylinder walls..

[Grimy]

Thanks, @ABear I hadn't considered that.  Hopefully the anti-cavitation properties of the Pencool, designed for OTR diesels, will prevent a problem.  I now have 15,000 miles and 17 years on that car since adopting Pencool and no cooling issues have surfaced.

[Bloo]

12 hours ago, ABear said:

 

Use the proper tool for the job instead of guessing and hoping it will work.

 

 

Motor Cooling System

 

WATER SYSTEM---(See Illustration No. 9. Page 25)

 

There is a great amount of heat generated by the explosions in the cylinders and by the friction of the moving parts, which necessitates some method for cooling the cylinders, as otherwise the motor will overheat and lose power rapidly. (See "Overheating of Motor," page 51). Water is used for this purpose in the Studebaker "35." The water system, which contains 16 quarts, consists of a radiator, hose connections, water line, pump, and water jackets which are incorporated with the cylinders.

 

The radiator should always be kept full of clean, soft water.

                                                                                                  ----1913 Studebaker Owners Manual

 

https://autohistorypreservationsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/1913-STUDEBAKER-Owners-Manual-Model-35.pdf

 

 

 

             

[Dandy Dave]

14 hours ago, Studenut1915 said:

Hi all 

I was thinking running water and cutting oil in my 1915 studebaker. 

Does anyone have a suggestion on the ratio of water to cutting oil?

 

Pat

Knowing what Cutting oil does in machine shop equipment over time I would never do that. Had you ever changed the water and oil in one of those systems this thought would never cross your mind. A lot of congealed stinky stuff in the bottom.

[Lee H]

12 hours ago, Bloo said:

I would never try ethylene glycol again without a lot of preparation.

Bloo, if you do, I’d recommend incorporating one of the available surfactant additives (Water Wetter, etc.). While I’ve never had such a severe experience as with your Studebaker, I noticed less foam in the (also open system) Model A after doing it. 

[EmTee]

11 hours ago, ABear said:

Something causing cavitation in and around the water pump...

That's my suspicion, however, the most likely cause is sub-optimal pump design (no CFD software back then), variable manufacturing/casting tolerances and higher sustained engine speeds on today's roads.  In short, I can believe that the propensity for EG foaming would vary widely among pre-war, atmospheric cooling systems - even within the same manufacturer's models.

 

Edited April 6 by EmTee (see edit history)

[BobinVirginia]

9 hours ago, Grimy said:

Thanks, @ABear I hadn't considered that.  Hopefully the anti-cavitation properties of the Pencool, designed for OTR diesels, will prevent a problem.  I now have 15,000 miles and 17 years on that car since adopting Pencool and no cooling issues have surfaced.

@GrimyYou should be just fine. Typically most cases of cavitation occur in wet liner diesels. Most issues found with a common dry sleeve blocks are linked (provided there aren’t existing casting flaws in certain blocks)to poor condition monitoring and maintenance. You’re on top of your maintenance so it’s doubtful a block like that large T-head will have an issue with this. 

[alsancle]

My experience is that a car using water and cutting oil will run cooler than one running a antifreeze mix. I also use the pencool product when mixing with antifreeze..  I can tell you for a fact that my Stearns Knight will run significantly cooler with the water. I didn’t believe it until I saw it. Ed theorizes that the antifreeze is foaming.  

[BobinVirginia]

@alsancle

Interesting. I wonder if that would be a common experience with sleeve valve gas engines? 

Edited April 6 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Just now, BobinVirginia said:

@alsancle

Interesting. I wonder if that would be a common experience with other sleeve valve gas engines? 

It may have something to do with the design of the cooling system. Or it may have something to do with being sleeve valve. Or it could be the cooling coefficient of water is that much better than antifreeze. I barely passed thermodynamics, so I’m the wrong guy to ask.

[BobinVirginia]

@alsancle

Could be a harmonic effect of the engine at operating speed causing the foaming. The oil would certainly dampen the effect and provide a different surface tension for heat dissipation. Always cool to hear things you can learn from. Ed’s a sharp one and I’d say he figured it out.

[ABear]

3 hours ago, Bloo said:

 

 

Motor Cooling System

 

WATER SYSTEM---(See Illustration No. 9. Page 25)

 

There is a great amount of heat generated by the explosions in the cylinders and by the friction of the moving parts, which necessitates some method for cooling the cylinders, as otherwise the motor will overheat and lose power rapidly. (See "Overheating of Motor," page 51). Water is used for this purpose in the Studebaker "35." The water system, which contains 16 quarts, consists of a radiator, hose connections, water line, pump, and water jackets which are incorporated with the cylinders.

 

The radiator should always be kept full of clean, soft water.

                                                                                                  ----1913 Studebaker Owners Manual

 

https://autohistorypreservationsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/1913-STUDEBAKER-Owners-Manual-Model-35.pdf

3 hours ago, Bloo said:

 

 

             

That was what typically would have been used back then as the anti freeze we have today (Ethylene Glycol) although was discovered in the 1850's was not commercially available when your vehicle was manufactured. Instead Methyl Alcohol (wood alcohol) would have been used for cold climates.. Don't know about you, but myself filling a block with wood alcohol wouldn't be my first choice..

 

As automobiles evolved so did things like oil and anti freeze and with new improvements to those items the new items in most cases superseded the OEMs specs and can be substituted in place of older spec fluids (with perhaps a few exceptions when there may be a know compatibility issue like automatic transmission fluids).

 

When one pulls out a manual and quotes what the manufacturer stated for liquids back in that day, they were simply stating that was the MINIMUM acceptable requirement.. You do realize by running todays modern fuels, oils and antifreeze, you ARE running fuel, oils, antifreeze that EXCEEDs the liquids specifications of that time period? The fuels used back then were very crude 40-50 octane.. The oils you are using now days (even straight weight HD) EXCEEDS the the oils made back then.

 

So, in my single digit auto, I guess I should be using the crudely refined leftover sludge oils, unrefined Naptha (white gas, casing head, plug gas) from 1900?

[Bloo]

I didn't say that. In fact I said I would rather be using ethylene glycol.

 

Still, saying that ethylene glycol is the proper tool for the job when the original designers engineered the system around water is silly. Doubly so knowing that ethylene glycol has significantly worse thermal transfer properties when compared to water. It is in fact a different substance with different characteristics that must be taken into account.

 

18 hours ago, ABear said:

Optimized formula for All Vehicles; makes, models, years & fluid colors. Our patented technology provides instant protection to all engines, new and old. Optimizes engine temp, prevents freezing, PLUS protects parts from buildup & corrosion. While ordinary antifreeze+coolant only manages 2/3s the job, Prestone’s Total Protection handles the complete job.

    Designed to last and protect vital engine parts for 10 years/300,000 miles.
    Includes patented Prestone Cor-Guard® technology, our best advancement in cooling system parts protection that protects against rust, corrosion, scale, buildup and clogging of all cooling system components.
    Ready to Use formula. Perfect for small volume top-off or complete drain and refill of the cooling system.

 

You will often see me recommending Zerex G-05. That is not because it is the only good option. No doubt there are plenty of others. It is just the first one I found that is 1) resistant to foaming and 2) did not show corrosion problems in testing for solder, brass, and copper on it's datasheet and 3) is available in bulk in concentrate form at chainstores like Oreilly, NAPA, and Autozone all over the US. I read a lot of datasheets when I was trying to solve a foaming problem in a Pontiac shortly before heading out on a roadtrip across several states. Now in Zerex's favor, all their antifreeze products do have datasheets that are relatively complete, even their cheapest products. Some other brands do also, though they do tend to be less complete. Prestone on the other hand had the absolute worst documentation I found. Some of their products, like the one you linked, have no datasheet at all, only a webpage full of marketing babble clearly not written by anyone who had engineered it or tested it. The only document available is an SDS. I guess at least the firemen will have something to go on if someone drinks it. Prestone does have datasheets for some of their products for industrial or truck use, but even in that case they give more space to marketing babble than data, and the data is sparse. Stuff like "Optimizes engine temp, prevents freezing, PLUS protects parts from buildup & corrosion. While ordinary antifreeze+coolant only manages 2/3s the job, Prestone’s Total Protection handles the complete job."  and "Includes patented Prestone Cor-Guard® technology, our best advancement in cooling system parts protection that protects against rust, corrosion, scale, buildup and clogging of all cooling system components." carries about as much weight with me as "Ivory - So pure it floats!" and "Lucky Strike means Fine Tobacco!".

 

Now in all fairness the "Prestone All Vehicles" linked is one of the products I tested in my admittedly unscientific foam testing. It performed very well in foam prevention, almost exactly the same as GM DexCool, though GM DexCool would be a much better choice because it has to meet documented standards to be allowed to carry the trademark. Until Prestone owns up to what standards their "all vehicles" product can be expected to meet, they can put anything in the bottle. There is no expectation that it will necessarily have the same characteristics as what I tested. It is just not possible to take them seriously when they do not publish specifications and test data.

 

Edited April 6 by Bloo (see edit history)

[EmTee]

4 hours ago, Bloo said:

You will often see me recommending Zerex G-05.

I switched my '38 Buick over to this last summer.  So far, so good; I really haven't noticed any difference from the generic NAPA green stuff I had been using, but given this is an open (non-pressurized) system, I figured the G-05's additional resistance to foaming wouldn't hurt.

[ABear]

5 hours ago, Bloo said:

Still, saying that ethylene glycol is the proper tool for the job when the original designers engineered the system around water is silly. Doubly so knowing that ethylene glycol has significantly worse thermal transfer properties when compared to water. It is in fact a different substance with different characteristics that must be taken into account.

And yet back then in freeze prone areas wood alcohol was recommended to be used for freeze protection.

 

Something you are ignoring is when Ethylene Glycol is mixed 50/50, it not only rasies freeze protection over water, it also increase the boiling point over all..

 

Since you didn't "like" the fact that I quoted from an anti freeze manufacturer, I will quote from other non anti freeze sources..

 

https://www.carid.com/articles/antifreeze-explained.html

 

"Antifreeze" is a chemical, primarily consisting of ethylene glycol, which when mixed with water serves to lower the freezing point and raise the boiling point of the mixture. Traditionally, the combination of antifreeze and water is known as "coolant". As opposed to air-cooled vehicles which rely on fan-driven air blowing over engine components, water-cooled engines use a radiator, water pump, thermostat, heater core, hoses, and passageways within the engine.

 

Additionally the same source goes on to say..

 

With nothing more than the right corrosion inhibitors added, water alone would cool an automotive engine just fine - until outside circumstances caused it to freeze or boil over. Antifreeze was developed to prevent those disasters, and it contains additives that prevent corrosion of metal components it comes in contact with.

 

And yet the article also adds..

 

But it's not the ethylene glycol itself that wears out, it's the corrosion inhibitor ingredients added to it which get consumed. These inhibitors prevent rust from forming on metal parts such as water pumps and engine blocks, and they get used up at various rates depending on chemical makeup. Antifreeze that's become brown or rusty in color indicates that the inhibitors have broken down to the point where the solution must be replaced.

 

And there is literally hundreds of other sources easily found on the Internet that back up what that source above is saying.

 

Water alone does not prevent or inhibit rust, does not lubricate, does not provide freeze protection, does not raise the boiling point (which by the way boiling point of plain water does change with a change in elevation).

 

And by the way, cutting oils are nothing more than a oil that has been whipped so hard with water is emulsifies with said water.. The problem with that is oil and water do not "mix" well, eventually that emulsified oil/water mix will separate with heat and time creating a oil slick sludge over time because your water pump will not be able to keep that mix emulsified..

 

If you have an engine that has issues with antifreeze foaming, it could be the additive package in the antifreeze isn't sufficient for that engine. Every manufacturer has their own proprietary secret formulas for their version., some may work better in some engines..

 

But, I still comes down to the real source of the foam, cavitation. Since water by it's self doesn't froth and stay that way, it will not show foam.. Doesn't mean water fixed it, just means you now have hidden a flaw in your engine.. Now as has been mentioned, supposedly foaming is a consitant issue with many of the same engines by the same manufacturer.. That will indicate that it is a flaw in the engine design, not a flaw in the antifreeze.

 

Basically the manfacturer made some bad design choices, may have made the cylinder walls too thin, may have placed the water pump inlet/outlet or used a water pump that creates water starvation and cavitation.

 

As mentioned, may require trying different antifreeze types or if you are satisfied with plain water, go for it.. No skin off my nose about it.

 

But, in this day and age, we are no longer in the stone age, most if not all water cooled engines can and do benefit by using anti freeze.

 

I am not scared of it, I use in my car that was handed down to me, that car engine is 120 yrs young, uses a gear water pump. My Dad used antifreeze in his oilwell hit and miss engines and those were still running the day he sold the last well our family owned.. Well over 100 yrs of 24/7/365 operation.. Oil well engines often were setup to use spring water, pump in cold spring water and let it run out and drain off.. Many oilwell engines suffered from extreme mineral buildup and worse yet if they shut down on a cold winters day, total freeze up and broken water jackets.. Either way resulted in folks having to cut open the water jacket, clean the build up out and then place huge patches over the repairs.

 

But, do what you like.

[alsancle]

Like I said, my car runs significantly cooler with water versus antifreeze. I can’t explain why. But it does. And that alone is enough reason for me to run the water and cutting oil over antifreeze.

[Matt Harwood]

If you just want to run water, you should add this instead of cutting oil:

 

 

In fact, whatever you're running, this stuff is fantastic. We recently brought a 1930 Marmon out of hibernation after about seven years and the owner was fanatical about using this stuff. After draining the radiator, it was squeaky clean inside. I'm a believer--it's in all my old cars.

[Bloo]

16 minutes ago, ABear said:

Something you are ignoring is when Ethylene Glycol is mixed 50/50, it not only rasies freeze protection over water, it also increase the boiling point over all..

I'm not ignoring that. I use it in all my cars (except the Studebaker) for exactly that those reasons. I have G-05 in the 36 Pontiac and DexCool in everything else.

 

20 minutes ago, ABear said:

Since you didn't "like" the fact that I quoted from an anti freeze manufacturer,

I don't mind that. I do admit being annoyed with Prestone's dismal documentation that reads like a JC Whitney ad for engine overhaul pellets. It's not the first time i've been there and read all that. It isn't anything you did.

 

32 minutes ago, ABear said:

And by the way, cutting oils are nothing more than a oil that has been whipped so hard with water is emulsifies with said water.. The problem with that is oil and water do not "mix" well, eventually that emulsified oil/water mix will separate with heat and time creating a oil slick sludge over time because your water pump will not be able to keep that mix emulsified..

I wouldn't know about that. It was at the parts store as "rust inhibitor and water pump lubricant. It never caused me any trouble. It's been decades since I've seen any. I'm not afraid of it. I have owned cars in the past that couldn't deal with much loss in cooling efficiency and were better off with water in the summer. If there were options other than soluble oil back then (like Pencool, NoRosion. etc.) to control the rust, I was not aware of them.

 

We have had this thread before, lots of times. Grimy likes Pencool. StudeLight likes No-Rosion. Ed likes soluble oil. Leaving water in in the winter is not an option where I live so I am always looking for an ethylene glycol solution. A car that is driven as rarely as my Studebaker would get forgotten and wind up with a cracked block.

 

47 minutes ago, ABear said:

If you have an engine that has issues with antifreeze foaming, it could be the additive package in the antifreeze isn't sufficient for that engine. Every manufacturer has their own proprietary secret formulas for their version., some may work better in some engines..

That's why I was testing them. I did a drain and refill on the 36 Pontiac, and suddenly had foaming and coolant push.

57 minutes ago, ABear said:

But, I still comes down to the real source of the foam, cavitation. Since water by it's self doesn't froth and stay that way, it will not show foam.. Doesn't mean water fixed it, just means you now have hidden a flaw in your engine.. Now as has been mentioned, supposedly foaming is a consitant issue with many of the same engines by the same manufacturer.. That will indicate that it is a flaw in the engine design, not a flaw in the antifreeze.

 

Basically the manfacturer made some bad design choices, may have made the cylinder walls too thin, may have placed the water pump inlet/outlet or used a water pump that creates water starvation and cavitation.

That's true. But why would you run something that has a tendency to foam up? Antifreeze without that tendency exists now. There's an ASTM test for it. It is on the datasheet, or should be... if the manufacturer bothers to publish one.

1 hour ago, ABear said:

But, do what you like.

Frankly I don't understand why this is an argument. I agree with almost all of what you say.

 

However, the original poster's question was more or less "how much soluble oil should I put in the water?". I can't answer that. Edinmass probably can. He still uses it. He also lives in Florida where the water won't freeze.

 

You suggested ethylene glycol was the proper tool for the job. As it happens, I tried that in a Studebaker with an engine from *exactly the same engine family* as the Studebaker the original poster asked about. It went badly. I didn't say don't do it. I advised preparation and a lot of caution if he was going to try it. I stand by that.

 

 

[edinmass]

Hi, sorry I’m late to the game. Life has become extremely busy and complicated for me the last few months. All is good, and getting better. Still more challenges ahead, but we are gaining on them. 
 

My history of using cutting oil goes back to the Springfield Factory Rolls Royce employees. As a very young kid I spent a bunch of time with people who actually built the Ghost’s, P1’s, and PII’s. I learned the foam issue/fix from them. Here in New England, we generally only used it to “get by” till the car could be properly repaired. My experience is 90 percent of foaming is air getting past the seal in the water pump. 
 

I disagree the cutting oil will cause problems or separate. Having run it for well over 40 years and countless miles, I stand by it in CERTAIN situations. I’m jumping on a plane…..more when I can get back. Ed.

[Stude Light]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

If you just want to run water, you should add this instead of cutting oil:

 

 

In fact, whatever you're running, this stuff is fantastic. We recently brought a 1930 Marmon out of hibernation after about seven years and the owner was fanatical about using this stuff. After draining the radiator, it was squeaky clean inside. I'm a believer--it's in all my old cars.

Exactly! I think I mentioned this earlier.

 

Also, there is nothing better as a heat transfer fluid than water. Not EG, nor water wetters, nor waterless coolants, nor anything else. If someone tries to tell you otherwise then they are misinformed or trying to sell you something. Your vehicle will run the coolest using straight water - that’s just simple physics.

 

Does EG have a higher boiling point, sure. As does a pressurized system. For my prewar cars that were designed to run on water they don’t get over 212 degrees here in Michigan unless you boil all the water out.

 

It’s diminishing returns when you run glycol, or worse yet, Evan’s. The heat transfer coefficient is reduced which makes your engine run hotter in more extreme conditions but since your coolant doesn’t boil until say 240 degrees then it just runs at a much higher temperature. Also, EG likes closed systems (I.e. pressurized). Open systems introduce oxygen which oxidizes the glycol and it breaks down forming acids. Thus you need to change out your EG fluid in open systems more often than a closed system.

 

I run water w/No-Rosion and I also run EG. In cars a bit marginal on cooling it’s hard to beat water but if you need freeze protection there is no way around it.

 

I swear by No-Rosion in either water only or EG systems. The coolant always looks perfect between changes.

 

If you decide to run straight water I really suggest you use No-Rosion and not cutting oil. It is designed for what you want to do.

 

 

[Grimy]

@edinmass when you get a chance, please inform us of proper dosage rates for cutting oil--not that I intend to switch to it.  My Paige's immediate previous owner was a machinist (and vintage radio repairman) who swore *by* soluble oil and apparently thought that if a little is good, more is better.  The oil coating on the outside of the cylinders greatly inhibited heat transfer, and I pursued many iterations of Better Living Through Chemistry to remove the (overdosed) oil.  Moreover, my opinion is that it contributed to the "sludge" captured in the stocking filter I installed.  I swear *at* any type of oil for that purpose.

 

But I'm open to your argument if it has at least a quasi-scientific explanation.

Edited April 7 by Grimy
added last sentence (see edit history)

[JRA]

@edinmass please share your experiences with cutting oil mixture to radiator water in hot weather as in Florida.

I am running my cars is just plain water here in Brazil. I use spring water, so it’s pure, without chlorine. Good cooling is essential here in the summer, mainly for these pre-war cars.
I am really interested to understand if the water and cutting oil mix reduces corrosion and elevate boiling point.

[BobinVirginia]

My favorite method is using this. What delivers the best performance from and without harming my cooling system. Results will vary depending on application and climate range. One size doesn’t fit all. I’ll just listen and learn. 

Edited April 7 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I agree that foaming would most likely be cause by air leakage past the seal on a non-pressurized system. Just figure out what the suction pressure at the eye of the impeller would be. Good starting point.

 

In 1915 a good mechanic would tell you to be sure to get your water from a running stream. That stagnant water should be avoided.

 

I also have some steam boiler operation procedures from that time showing special procedures if your makeup water is muddy. I wouldn't ignore 110 years of progress though.

[alsancle]

On 4/6/2024 at 6:52 PM, Matt Harwood said:

If you just want to run water, you should add this instead of cutting oil:

 

 

In fact, whatever you're running, this stuff is fantastic. We recently brought a 1930 Marmon out of hibernation after about seven years and the owner was fanatical about using this stuff. After draining the radiator, it was squeaky clean inside. I'm a believer--it's in all my old cars.

There is a lot of chit chat on the internet about this product.  Based on your recommendation Matt I bought a case and I'm going to give it a try.  I don't see that it is a lubricator however?  So probably stick with some cutting oil too.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Along related lines does anyone know the rough antifreeze to water ratios to protect from freezing at say 32, 15 and 0 degrees F? 

 

As I look at ways to counter crap gas boiling I am adding an electric fuel pump, carb heat shield and may want to move off 50/50 mix from the sounds of it.  A 10% improvement would be great.  Before moving to straight water though I wonder about the value of a 25/75 ratio? Anyone else have thoughts on this?

 

Cooling system - water pump, rad has been done.

Edited April 9 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[alsancle]

53 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Along related lines does anyone know the rough antifreeze to water ratios to protect from freezing at say 32, 15 and 0 degrees F? 

 

As I look at ways to counter crap gas boiling I am adding an electric fuel pump, carb heat shield and may want to move off 50/50 mix from the sounds of it.  A 10% improvement would be great.  Before moving to straight water though I wonder about the value of a 25/75 ratio? Anyone else have thoughts on this?

 

Cooling system - water pump, rad has been done.

Steve, get a hydrometer. They are cheap. And you can gradually add more antifreeze if you want more protection.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Yep have one of those AJ.  I just thought somewhere along the way someone had roughed this ratio out. I knew straight water was better at cooling but 20% was an eye opener for sure.    

 

I think fighting the fuel boil issue is a multi front effort and hadn't considered that much of a gain with such a  change.