Best selling era of collector cars per Hagerty

[31Buick96S]

According to this article, the best selling era of collector cars spans a period from 1955 to 1975.  Three out of my four collector cars do fall into that time frame. My other car is a 1931. I noticed at Hershey that the pre-war show field, though it contained stunning cars, they were dwarfed in numbers by the cars of the era Hagerty is talking about. I was curious what other forum members think. https://www.hagerty.com/media/market-trends/hagerty-insider/charted-3-17/?utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_content=MED_UN_NA_EML_UN_UN_DailyDriver_Tuesday&hashed_email=799a3c87be6900a8f0b31e875afce9501706e0f0b439dd3ef18085618b50bb02&dtm_em=799a3c87be6900a8f0b31e875afce9501706e0f0b439dd3ef18085618b50bb02

[kgreen]

Well, they gotta say something to make the article interesting.

[joe_padavano]

While I am equally skeptical of articles like this, that claim certainly mirrors what I've seen at major events and auctions. Tri-five Chevys and T-birds to the start of the Malaise Era. Not a big surprise.

[TTR]

21 minutes ago, kgreen said:

Well, they gotta say something.

Fix it for you.

While I admittedly don’t bother reading pointless articles (& assume this is one), there are few things that come to mind from OP.

Define “best” and for whom or why ?

If just comparing selling/transaction volumes, there’s obviously far more ‘50s through ‘70s cars around and changing hands than pre-war stuff, so no surprises there… 

[Pfeil]

Could it possibly be that people who collect prewar cars tend to keep their cars longer and are less prone to behave like

people of the want it now and something new generations?

[Larry Schramm]

Being a pre-war car driver, I would say that one of the reasons is just the sheer numbers of cars produced in the late 50's compared to earlier years.  Without looking I would say that as many cars were produced from 1955-1960 than the total cars produced from say 1920 and older. 

 

Just a thought, also more persons were living in the 50's and remember those cars from their youth.

Edited March 19 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[John348]

1 minute ago, Larry Schramm said:

Being a pre-war car driver, I would say that one of the reasons is just the sheer numbers of cars produced in the late 50's compared to earlier years.  Without looking I would say that as many cars were produced from 1955-1960 than the total cars produced from say 1920 and older. 

 

Just a thought, also more persons were living in the 50's and remember those cars from their youth.

That was the same thought that crossed my mind.

[human-potato_hybrid]

Amazing insight... What else could the popular collector car market even consist of?

 

WWII scrap drives and the general beaten into the ground nature of cars of that period guarantee low survival rates. Whereas the malaise era cars are hardly desirable to many car enthusiasts, and most anything newer is too new to be "collector". So roughly the 50's to 70's is the sweet spot in popularity, through the peak values are trending newer.

[7th Son]

1 hour ago, Larry Schramm said:

Just a thought, also more persons were living in the 50's and remember those cars from their youth.

The old guard is diminishing in numbers. Most younger collectors can't relate to cars made 20 or 30 years before they were born. I appreciate pre-WWII cars and owned more than a few in the past (1960's) but grew up riding in and living with 50's through '70's cars. 

I still think 100 year old cars are neat, but mostly impractical, costly to maintain, and of diminishing interest to enthusiasts and the general public who, for he most part, never saw these cars when they were commonly on the road.

 

 

[Mark Shaw]

I would like to see how many were produced relative to how many survived by decade starting in 1900.

 

[Larry Schramm]

24 minutes ago, 7th Son said:

The old guard is diminishing in numbers. Most younger collectors can't relate to cars made 20 or 30 years before they were born. I appreciate pre-WWII cars and owned more than a few in the past (1960's) but grew up riding in and living with 50's through '70's cars. 

I still think 100 year old cars are neat, but mostly impractical, costly to maintain, and of diminishing interest to enthusiasts and the general public who, for he most part, never saw these cars when they were commonly on the road.

 

 

 

I agree with most of what you say, but some people say that my interest in 100+ year old car is very unusual.  It depends on the company you keep.

 

I grew up in the 50's & 60's and from my perspective they are interesting car.  Maybe I am not "addicted" to that era is because I never had the money to own one of those no popular cars when they were new or even almost new.  Mostly in my younger years my wife and I drove mostly cars in the $10 to maybe $300 range.  Cheap rides because I put all of my money in my head, college tuition and all the things that go with it. 

 

It is easy to say that 100+ year old cars are impractical, and they are for daily driving, but.....   If you get a century old plus and join some of the many groups out there that drive their cars you can easily become hooked. We meet up with friends in different groups and usually headquarter out of a hotel for maybe a week and then go out driving in the country side about 100 miles each day.  Driving the back roads of America in the 30 MPH range is a transport back in time and appreciation of the country.  It is especially true when driving down dirt roads.   

 

As a reference point my Wife and I are scheduled for seven tours this summer taking our two grandsons on three of them. That is the only time they are off school and can go. Our daughter and her husband, in their 30's tour with on some of the tours.  

 

We along with another couple do one of the tours the Lansing-Dearborn tour.  We do the tour that is in conjunction with The Old Car Festival at Greenfield Village. It is a two day tour open only to vehicles 1915 and older as it is a joint tour with the HCCA & AACA.  The OCF is the best car show in the country IMO for vehicles only 1932 and older.

 

https://www.thehenryford.org/current-events/calendar/old-car-festival/

Edited March 19 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Reynard]

3 hours ago, kgreen said:

Well, they gotta say something to make the article interesting.

 

2 hours ago, TTR said:

While I admittedly don’t bother reading pointless articles (& assume this is one)

 

39 minutes ago, human-potato_hybrid said:

Amazing insight... What else could the popular collector car market even consist of?

 

 

  

Hey, y'all, this Hagerty article is an observation which documents a fact we can all see.

 

Not a breaking news flash on Fox or CNN.

 

There's always going to be those who favor a specific segment of old car collecting, and hopefully enough to keep at least some of the earliest cars on the road, even if it's on a back road, under 30 mph, ...and out of dusty museums.  Interests change as the population ages and is replaced by the younger generations (that's a hard fact, not a rumor or speculation).

The day may come when crowds gather around an antique Cybertruck or Rivian in awe of its splendid condition and it's 80 year young owner as he carefully loads it in his enclosed trailer for the trip home to it's climate controlled garage.

We won't be there, but this scenario just might happen someday.

 

 

[human-potato_hybrid]

28 minutes ago, Reynard said:

We won't be there, but this scenario just might happen someday.

Oh I'm sure it will. Especially for cars built in the past 25 years or so it will be interesting to see how the most diehard enthusiasts keep the electronics going, or what OEM substitutes are found or created. Though cars have had engine computers for almost half a century now, it's only a matter of time until all the original ones have failed in some way.

 

Highly original cars of our era 100 years from now will be far more exotic even than cars that are 100 years old in our time. How many original Model T's are out there? Tens of thousands. (I think the estimate of ALL Model T's on the road is like 750k). The same will not be true of the cars of today. Sure, I think plenty will survive, with overall survival rates not dissimilar to 100 year old cars today, but keeping them going using original electronic parts will be a miracle. I say this as someone who has to repair 30-year-old electronics on a regular basis.

 

At least all the plastic junk will be infinitely reproducible using 3D scanning and 3D printing.

Edited March 19 by human-potato_hybrid (see edit history)

[31Buick96S]

3 hours ago, TTR said:

Fix it for you.

While I admittedly don’t bother reading pointless articles (& assume this is one), there are few things that come to mind from OP.

Define “best” and for whom or why ?

If just comparing selling/transaction volumes, there’s obviously far more ‘50s through ‘70s cars around and changing hands than pre-war stuff, so no surprises there… 

I believe the words "best selling" are self explanatory. The article not only emphasizes the volume of vehicles being sold, but also the rising values in this segment.  I agree that the volume is not a surprise, that era falls neatly into the sweet spot of cars that people who are now blessed with disposable income wanted and couldn't buy when they were new.  What is astounding is the prices some of these vehicles are bringing. While we all have anecdotal observations of the direction the hobby has been headed for some time now, the empirical data that Hagerty presents in this article will no doubt be a precursor of changes to come. I was hoping to spark a conversation of how those changes may affect the hobby going forward.  As the mid 50's thru mid 70's cars continue to lead in overall sales, will their steadily increasing values push the price down on pre-war cars or will rising prices extend to the pre-war market? Looking at the valuation tools available, pre-war cars have been stagnant for some time. The 1936 Buick Opera Coupe for sale in the Buick Pre-War forum is a wonderful car, the asking price seems fair, but who really believes that making that car a safe, reliable driver won't have you upside down before you ever consider chrome, paint or interior work? I'm not advocating the hobby as an investment, but I would like to avoid financial ruin, yet still have a nice car. How many vendors will continue to invest in reproducing and/or stocking parts for my 1931 Buick Series 90 instead of my friend's 1969 Camaro Z28? These boards continually have news of yet another vendor, service provider or restoration shop that can no longer afford to stay in business. I guess what I'm dreading is the day that my 1958 MGA is as hard to find parts for as my 1931 Buick 96S. 

[human-potato_hybrid]

3 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

I would like to see how many were produced relative to how many survived by decade starting in 1900.

 

You may like this thread

 

Also, I can get you that info for Packards specifically, if you are curious.

[human-potato_hybrid]

4 hours ago, 7th Son said:

The old guard is diminishing in numbers. Most younger collectors can't relate to cars made 20 or 30 years before they were born. I appreciate pre-WWII cars and owned more than a few in the past (1960's) but grew up riding in and living with 50's through '70's cars. 

I still think 100 year old cars are neat, but mostly impractical, costly to maintain, and of diminishing interest to enthusiasts and the general public who, for he most part, never saw these cars when they were commonly on the road.

I think the Model T / A Clubs would politely disagree with the "cost" portion, but everything else, of course. Though it will not be THAT long (30 years) until 100 year old cars will have 200+ HP. Though also in 30 years the road will be filled with electric cars having 3-second 0-60 times, so having a 250HP 3-speed will feel as slow then as a Model A pulling away from a stoplight now. Anyway...

 

I'm "only" 25 and I got into old cars mostly from my uncle having quite a few. Just seemed like a cool hobby and now I'm waist-deep in it. 😂 But as far as "relating" to cars, I can't personally relate to anything in the previous millennium. My first car was a 2004 Chevy Malibu. Only a few more years until those reach their absolute nadir of value, and I might pick one up as a 4th car. 😁

Edited March 20 by human-potato_hybrid (see edit history)

[Buffalowed Bill]

IMHO the car hobby, as we know it today, is of, by and for the Baby Boomers. There has never been a group of car crazies' like them before nor will there be another group like it that follows. These were the cars with which they grew up. They saved them restored them and continue to own them today.

 

I think that it is important to remember that there was little car preservation or restoration taking place before the Boomers made it a priority. There are no other generational advocates for old cars and the history that made them seem important. Our slow demise (Boomers) has already made a huge negative impact on the hobby. 

 

Later generations have the ability to reap the benefits of the work that the Boomers provided. I just hope that there is enough interest from the youngsters to sustain part of legacy of the last four decades. 

[wayne sheldon]

The "crowd" can love and enjoy all the cars and other things that they like and enjoy. The cars I care about and enjoy working on and driving are the early brass era through nickel age! To me, it is about history. The earlier cars are what made the later cars possible! Without the work done before 1900, there would be no "Brass Era" automobiles. Without the Brass Era, the "Jazz Age" wouldn't have had their nickel era cars, IF they even had a "Jazz Age".

Every day, I see proof that most people today do not in any real way appreciate anything they have (except maybe their cell phone?). Maybe that is why most people today seem to be willing to lose everything?

 

I can and do appreciate newer collector cars. But it is the earlier stuff I will always want the most!

[CarNucopia]

The only conclusion I can offer is that companies in the Live auction business should be thinking about getting into the Online business if they want to attract the next generation of collectors and cars.

 

I also wonder at what point should a car from a particular year be eliminated from that year's total? There is a '63 Corvette at $300K on BaT right now, but a majority of the parts on the car are far newer then the model year.

Edited March 20 by CarNucopia (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

19 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

IMHO the car hobby, as we know it today, is of, by and for the Baby Boomers. There has never been a group of car crazies' like them before nor will there be another group like it that follows.

This is just totally untrue.

[TTR]

19 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

IMHO the car hobby, as we know it today, is of, by and for the Baby Boomers. There has never been a group of car crazies' like them before nor will there be another group like it that follows. These were the cars with which they grew up. They saved them restored them and continue to own them today.

 

I think that it is important to remember that there was little car preservation or restoration taking place before the Boomers made it a priority. There are no other generational advocates for old cars and the history that made them seem important. Our slow demise (Boomers) has already made a huge negative impact on the hobby. 

 

Later generations have the ability to reap the benefits of the work that the Boomers provided. I just hope that there is enough interest from the youngsters to sustain part of legacy of the last four decades. 

I sort of disagree as I think "Boomers", i.e. my generation, has generally done (and continue to do) more disservice than good for the hobby involving vintage cars than ones before and likely after us.

I just hope those after us are able to learn from the history we provided them with and not make all the same mistakes again.

[TAKerry]

I do believe that the original article is more than likely correct in what is popular and selling right now. Interesting to see so many opinions but that is all they are. Of course if you own a pre war car you think that is the best one, but I would bet the statistics just dont show that. Not that there is anything wrong with a prewar car. In 10-15 years I would be willing to bet the best selling cars will be JDM.

On 3/19/2024 at 5:22 PM, Larry Schramm said:

 

I agree with most of what you say, but some people say that my interest in 100+ year old car is very unusual.  It depends on the company you keep.

 

I grew up in the 50's & 60's and from my perspective they are interesting car.  Maybe I am not "addicted" to that era is because I never had the money to own one of those no popular cars when they were new or even almost new.  Mostly in my younger years my wife and I drove mostly cars in the $10 to maybe $300 range.  Cheap rides because I put all of my money in my head, college tuition and all the things that go with it. 

 

It is easy to say that 100+ year old cars are impractical, and they are for daily driving, but.....   If you get a century old plus and join some of the many groups out there that drive their cars you can easily become hooked. We meet up with friends in different groups and usually headquarter out of a hotel for maybe a week and then go out driving in the country side about 100 miles each day.  Driving the back roads of America in the 30 MPH range is a transport back in time and appreciation of the country.  It is especially true when driving down dirt roads.   

 

As a reference point my Wife and I are scheduled for seven tours this summer taking our two grandsons on three of them. That is the only time they are off school and can go. Our daughter and her husband, in their 30's tour with on some of the tours.  

 

We along with another couple do one of the tours the Lansing-Dearborn tour.  We do the tour that is in conjunction with The Old Car Festival at Greenfield Village. It is a two day tour open only to vehicles 1915 and older as it is a joint tour with the HCCA & AACA.  The OCF is the best car show in the country IMO for vehicles only 1932 and older.

 

https://www.thehenryford.org/current-events/calendar/old-car-festival/

Larry, sounds like you have a lot of fun with your car, but this is the farthest thing from practical in my world. First I would have to have a truck heavy enough to pull a trailer with a car. Then there is the trailer. Then there is the time to get to the events (I work full time). Then there is the time the tour takes. All of these items correlate to money being spent. I am happy that you have the means and time to participate in these events but for me jumping into my mid 70's car and taking a 2 or 3 hour drive on any road that I want to is much more practical. As much as I would love to own a 30's or even a 20's era car I have resigned to the fact that I will live vicariously through all of my fellow AACA members that have them.

[Larry Schramm]

4 hours ago, TAKerry said:

Larry, sounds like you have a lot of fun with your car, but this is the farthest thing from practical in my world. First I would have to have a truck heavy enough to pull a trailer with a car. Then there is the trailer. Then there is the time to get to the events (I work full time). Then there is the time the tour takes. All of these items correlate to money being spent. I am happy that you have the means and time to participate in these events but for me jumping into my mid 70's car and taking a 2 or 3 hour drive on any road that I want to is much more practical. As much as I would love to own a 30's or even a 20's era car I have resigned to the fact that I will live vicariously through all of my fellow AACA members that have them.

 

Never said that it was a cheap date for that it is not. 

 

But as I have said to others, I don't smoke, rarely drink(a very little bit), no girl friends,  airplanes, boats, snowmobiles, motorcycles, 4 wheelers, go to professional sports games, cottage "up north", go to the casinos, etc...  I just have a couple of old cars.  That is our pleasure in life.

Edited March 21 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[CarNucopia]

On 3/19/2024 at 4:22 PM, Larry Schramm said:

  

 

We along with another couple do one of the tours the Lansing-Dearborn tour.  We do the tour that is in conjunction with The Old Car Festival at Greenfield Village. It is a two day tour open only to vehicles 1915 and older as it is a joint tour with the HCCA & AACA.  The OCF is the best car show in the country IMO for vehicles only 1932 and older.

 

https://www.thehenryford.org/current-events/calendar/old-car-festival/

I’m curious, why is 1915 the cutoff? In the last year, I bought a ‘15 and ‘16 Model T Runabouts. The cars are almost the same, except for some trim pieces.

[Larry Schramm]

22 minutes ago, CarNucopia said:

I’m curious, why is 1915 the cutoff? In the last year, I bought a ‘15 and ‘16 Model T Runabouts. The cars are almost the same, except for some trim pieces.

 

Because that is the cutoff date for the Horseless Carriage Club. The tour used to be for 1 & 2 cylinder cars only, but we opened it up to vehicles with more cylinders a few years ago but covered under the rules of the HCCA, that is why '15 & earlier only.   It is meant to be an very early car tour.

Edited March 21 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[69merc]

Quote

I sort of disagree as I think "Boomers", i.e. my generation, has generally done (and continue to do) more disservice than good for the hobby involving vintage cars than ones before and likely after us.

I'm curious (as a Boomer) what you mean by this, but I suppose it might mean the wholesale conversion of classic cars to resto-mods, hot-rods, rat-rods, crazy-customs and all manner of insanity.  The media certainly favors this sort of "desecration," if that's what it is, for its shock/monetary value.  Another thing I see is people using old classic cars as vehicles for showing off their own skills as opposed to the intrinsic value of the car. I think I heard someone say how incredibly rare a well preserved, stock 49-51 Mercury is, because they have been customized to death!  I have a car from a hugely popular year, but of a less favored style (landyacht).  I am pouring all sorts of cash into it, trying to keep it safe, and road-worthy, not to mention fully functional, right down to the idiot lights and bone stock look. I don't look at it as an investment, but as something unique and intrinsically worthwhile as it came from Detroit.

[1912Staver]

I have been of the mind that the HCCA is doing itself no favors by sticking to the 1915 cut off.  It's been my belief for years now they should officially extend up to 1920. Membership is shrinking. Other than T's and a few other quite low H.P. cars there are very few " affordable " HCCA cars available to younger people and those of us with only average means. Somewhere around 35-50 K is what I usually see for what I would call a reasonably ordinary , but decent road usable HCCA car. And that's just too much for many household budgets. Opening things up to 1920 would bring many affordable cars into HCCA use.

 I gave up about 5 years ago and let my membership lapse.

Edited March 21 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

I would say that a lot of the reason for the 1915 cut off date is because of the rapid changes in technology of the vehicles of that era.  Pre 1915, the vehicles were truly horseless carriages and had a lot of low cylinder and low horsepower engines.  To start mixing newer cars into that mix you would have two different capability eras doing tours, and that is what the HCCA is famous for, tours. 

 

A good example would be Buick. After 1915 they came out with 6 cylinder vehicles and that is just an example of one manufacturer.  Big six cylinder vehicles do not mix with the earlier cars on tours.  The tour that I do is timed for 1 & 2 cylinder vehicles.

 

The HCCA does not judge cars. I could say that  the objective of the HCCA groups is to see how many sets of tires that an individual can wear out on a vehicle on tours before the car is passed on.  I know because I have already worn out a set of tires on one of my vehicles almost a set on another car.

[1912Staver]

I agree with what you are saying to a point. Lots of HCCA  cars that will run the wheels off a 1920 or older Buick 6 however. { bear in mind Buick offered a 6 1914 onward } My only point is that by keeping the cut off at 1915 the initial buy in is just too high for many. Any 1920 or older car is going to have a very limited performance envelope. The better 1914 - 1915 cars are just as fast as many / most 1920 cars. The one and two cyl. guys are in a league of their own.

Edited March 21 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

3 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I have been of the mind that the HCCA is doing itself no favors by sticking to the 1915 cut off.  It's been my belief for years now they should officially extend up to 1920. Membership is shrinking. Other than T's and a few other quite low H.P. cars there are very few " affordable " HCCA cars available to younger people and those of us with only average means. Somewhere around 35-50 K is what I usually see for what I would call a reasonably ordinary , but decent road usable HCCA car. And that's just too much for many household budgets. Opening things up to 1920 would bring many affordable cars into HCCA use.

 

Expanding the acceptable years doesn't work in regard to adding membership. Just ask CCCA.

[TTR]

10 hours ago, 69merc said:

I'm curious (as a Boomer) what you mean by this, but I suppose it might mean the wholesale conversion of classic cars to resto-mods, hot-rods, rat-rods, crazy-customs and all manner of insanity.  The media certainly favors this sort of "desecration," if that's what it is, for its shock/monetary value.  Another thing I see is people using old classic cars as vehicles for showing off their own skills as opposed to the intrinsic value of the car. I think I heard someone say how incredibly rare a well preserved, stock 49-51 Mercury is, because they have been customized to death!  I have a car from a hugely popular year, but of a less favored style (landyacht).  I am pouring all sorts of cash into it, trying to keep it safe, and road-worthy, not to mention fully functional, right down to the idiot lights and bone stock look. I don't look at it as an investment, but as something unique and intrinsically worthwhile as it came from Detroit.

My list of reasons would be miles long and could fill a book or at least couple of lengthy chapters, but doesn't really include your suggested "desecration", since I have nothing against what someone desires to do with their car.

I may not agree with their decision, but I'm not going to loose sleep over it either.

 

I've already made some of my views about "Boomers" clear here before and clarifying or adding more would likely at least severely annoy, if not anger many on this and other forums dedicated to old car hobby.

 

Besides, all one has to do is to pay attention what seemingly most "Boomers" involved with this hobby are thinking or how they're approaching it, it should become clear enough, although it took me nearly 30 out of my 45+ years of full-time involvement/pre-occupation with it to realize extent of it and have been experiencing/seeing evidence of it almost daily ever since (including today).

 

 

Edited March 22 by TTR (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

5 hours ago, West Peterson said:

Expanding the acceptable years doesn't work in regard to adding membership. Just ask CCCA.

Back in the 1950s, as the hobby grew and expanded across the nation, within the San Francisco Bay Area three HCCA Regional Groups were formed. Two of them were based literally only a few miles apart. The San Francisco Regional Group was based in on the Northern peninsula, technically South San Francisco city. They sought to attract a wider membership and chose to be inclusive to not just pre 1916s, but also cars through most of the 1920s. Both the Santa Clara Valley Regional Group and the Bay Area Regional Group (which I have been a member for thirty years!) chose to be strict pre-'16 groups. Although both of those groups have relaxed their focus a bit, allowing elderly members to drive slightly newer cars, both are still around, and the Bay Area Horseless Carriage Club is very active, with numerous tours and other activities every year!

The San Francisco and Bay Area groups meeting sites were separated the San Francisco Oakland Bay Bridge and a few miles of surface streets on each side. About fifteen years ago, the San Francisco Horseless Carriage Club disbanded. The one that opened their membership to newer cars is gone, while the two pre'16 clubs are still going.

 

My feeling is that the HCCA should stay true to their calling. The earliest cars need a club to benefit the earlier cars. The HCCA chose to be that club, and I think they should stay that way.

This subject keeps coming up in the HCCA every then and again. And I keep saying my same thing again. Personally, I would rather have a smaller club, with a simple newsletter (if that was what we had to go to?), devoted to the earlier cars, than have a fancy magazine and a bunch of members that have no understanding of what driving an early non-Ford is like. The early cars and people that love them need the HCCA.

As for the "buy in"? 1914 and 1915 model Ts in acceptable condition and nearly ready to tour, can be had for not a whole lot of money. Model Ts are very forgiving, and cheap to maintain by any collector car standards! If one cannot afford one of those, they won't be able to manage even much of a cheap 1950s collector car.

[1935Packard]

4 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Back in the 1950s, as the hobby grew and expanded across the nation, within the San Francisco Bay Area three HCCA Regional Groups were formed. Two of them were based literally only a few miles apart. The San Francisco Regional Group was based in on the Northern peninsula, technically South San Francisco city. They sought to attract a wider membership and chose to be inclusive to not just pre 1916s, but also cars through most of the 1920s. Both the Santa Clara Valley Regional Group and the Bay Area Regional Group (which I have been a member for thirty years!) chose to be strict pre-'16 groups. Although both of those groups have relaxed their focus a bit, allowing elderly members to drive slightly newer cars, both are still around, and the Bay Area Horseless Carriage Club is very active, with numerous tours and other activities every year!

The San Francisco and Bay Area groups meeting sites were separated the San Francisco Oakland Bay Bridge and a few miles of surface streets on each side. About fifteen years ago, the San Francisco Horseless Carriage Club disbanded. The one that opened their membership to newer cars is gone, while the two pre'16 clubs are still going.

 

My feeling is that the HCCA should stay true to their calling. The earliest cars need a club to benefit the earlier cars. The HCCA chose to be that club, and I think they should stay that way.

This subject keeps coming up in the HCCA every then and again. And I keep saying my same thing again. Personally, I would rather have a smaller club, with a simple newsletter (if that was what we had to go to?), devoted to the earlier cars, than have a fancy magazine and a bunch of members that have no understanding of what driving an early non-Ford is like. The early cars and people that love them need the HCCA.

As for the "buy in"? 1914 and 1915 model Ts in acceptable condition and nearly ready to tour, can be had for not a whole lot of money. Model Ts are very forgiving, and cheap to maintain by any collector car standards! If one cannot afford one of those, they won't be able to manage even much of a cheap 1950s collector car.

 

Agreed.  I'd add that the Bay Area Horseless Carriage Club is doing it right:  They're active, drive their cars, have events, and are really supportive.  I joined a few years ago and I don't have an HCCA-era car, but it's a great group of people.  And I figure I'll get one of those cars eventually....

[wayne sheldon]

6 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

Agreed.  I'd add that the Bay Area Horseless Carriage Club is doing it right:  They're active, drive their cars, have events, and are really supportive.  I joined a few years ago and I don't have an HCCA-era car, but it's a great group of people.  And I figure I'll get one of those cars eventually....

 

I myself, unfortunately have been unable to be active in the club for several years now due to family issues. Hopefully, that may change. My 1915 and 1913 model Ts are waiting for me.

[69merc]

9 hours ago, TTR said:

Besides, all one has to do is to pay attention what seemingly most "Boomers" involved with this hobby are thinking or how they're approaching it, it should become clear enough, although it took me nearly 30 out of my 45+ years of full-time involvement/pre-occupation with it to realize extent of it and have been experiencing/seeing evidence of it almost daily ever since (including today).

I am completely baffled.  My guess was wrong, but your statements are opaque and far from clear.  oh well.. 🤪

[TAKerry]

On 3/20/2024 at 8:13 PM, TTR said:

I sort of disagree as I think "Boomers", i.e. my generation, has generally done (and continue to do) more disservice than good for the hobby involving vintage cars than ones before and likely after us.

I just hope those after us are able to learn from the history we provided them with and not make all the same mistakes again.

This is such a broad stroke of the brush that has probably zero merit or truth. (perhaps this should start anther topic altogether as this one has typically strayed from the op). I am confused as to the amount of disservice that 'boomers' have done to the hobby. I tend to agree with the post that 'boomers' are more than likely the largest group of people that were and have been involved in the old car hobby. This is by shear numbers alone. I can only speculate what disservice you are referring to. I would imagine most organizations involved with old cars has grown exponentially with the help, support and ownership by 'boomers'. Whether a car is restored to showroom condition, or hot rodded (which has been done to cars since the beginning) resto-modded or just left alone there is still an interest in 'old cars'.

[1912Staver]

Just my local perspective, boomers in my area are far more likely to be involved with street rods or some other variation of modified old car than stock condition old cars. Gen x ers and milennials tend toward JDM or North American market versions of popular JDM cars , plus 4WD trucks of all makes. Lots of exceptions however. Probably 20 % or more of local car hobby people don't fit the stereotypes and are involved with some other variation.

 

Wayne, I guess my local market is as usual quite inflated.

A decent 1914 or 15 T is usually triple the price at least of what a basic, driver condition early 1950's car sells for around here.  A brass T only seems to hit the open market once every year or two in this area, and prices seem to stay high.

Even black T's are rarely a bargain in these parts. And the alternative of bringing one in from the U.S. gets quite expensive by the time all the dust settles. 

 In contrast there is always a good number of 1950's cars available and with some shopping around at quite low prices in some cases. Off brands , so - so body styles.

 Supply and demand

Edited March 22 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[TTR]

I know my comment requires some critical, dispassionate & outside-the-box thinking, which I’ve learned many either aren’t able or willing to even try, so let me try to offer a small window into how I view the world & the disservices done over the past few decades to my lifelong hobby and passion surrounding mainly 50+ year old vintage cars of all stripes:

 

Which generation introduced and has been continuously rallying for lower cost, i.e. cheap & crappy quality parts for (vintage) cars, not only having forced almost all American manufacturers to move their productions to off-shore, but killing countless domestic jobs and entire industries in the progress of this insistence for cheaper, cheaper, cheaper ?

 

And please, do not blame manufacturers, as they’re only providing what their buyers, i.e. market buys/demands.

 

Similarly, which generation introduced and has become the most prominent proponent insisting on “profitability” for buying/owning/restoring/etc of antique/classic/vintage cars, instead of treating/viewing them purely as a hobby & with passion for true enthusiasm ? (I mean what hobby is supposed to provide "profit" when you're done or involved with it ???)

Why else would there be a need or desire for countless auctions, including online & TV Circuses, along with stupefyingly silly Build/Restoration/etc TV shows often making mockery  or articles/magazines offering “expert” analyses on  “Market Values” of “collectible” (see OP) cars be so popular, not to mention countless online discussion forums mostly filled with idle and/or irrelevant/pointless keystrokes ?

Which generation introduced and is most enamored by all that ?

Etc, etc, etc …

 

So yes, my views may seem like broad strokes, but are they without merit (Rhetorical question) ?

Edited March 23 by TTR (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Broad strokes yes, but absolutely with merit.

I think there is a much larger force at work driving the cheaper, cheaper trend. Certainly here in Canada , and probably to at least some degree in the U.S. the " middle class " { really the majority of old car owners by vehicle numbers at least } simply have a shrinking disposable income. People like myself started in the hobby decades ago, when it was actually reasonably affordable as long as you realized the " blue chip " cars were out of reach. But year by year costs to participate rose faster than disposable income. Over the last 40 years the gap has become substantial. Therefore the demand for cheaper and cheaper parts.

 Also even going back to the start of my involvement when there was still a lot of N.O.S. parts around for Ford at least, there was even then cheaper offshore parts offered by many Ford suppliers. Usually so-so quality and fit, but it kept things moving along. Often stated as  made in Argentina back in the late 1960's / early 1970's.  I expect the venders over time read the tea leaves and realized they could sell 10 so - so examples of a given part for every example of a first class , " Made in U.S.A. " reproduction part. And probably a similar profit regardless on which example was sold. Just part of running a successful  business. 

It's either that or take up collecting clocks in many average income households. Likewise broad strokes in my outlook, but it just reflects my observations over 50 years of involvement.

Edited March 22 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Walt G]

On 3/22/2024 at 11:41 AM, 1912Staver said:

But year by year costs to participate rose faster than disposable income. Over the last 40 years the gap has become substantial.

VERY TRUE but there are some car clubs who maintain the elite mode of activities and fail to realize that for a family who already have the cars to participate can't justify a fee to take along their kids or grand kids. Those kids are almost always well behaved do not " smear their fingers" over surfaces and would learn what it is like to participate have people hopefully be cordial and friendly to them.  Those kids are the future of the old car hobby but are kept at a distance - WHY?  Good memories created NOW will be long lasting and be passed on for generations - it isn't happening on a grand scale and that is also a reason interest is fading.................

Edited March 23 by Walt G (see edit history)