Best selling era of collector cars per Hagerty

[Larry Schramm]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

A decent 1914 or 15 T is usually triple the price at least of what a basic, driver condition early 1950's car sells for around here.  A brass T only seems to hit the open market once every year or two in this area, and prices seem to stay high.

Even black T's are rarely a bargain in these parts. And the alternative of bringing one in from the U.S. gets quite expensive by the time all the dust settles. 

 

Not that this is any sort of price guide, but when I was looking for my brass T, the numbers that I found are (and they are just ball park) a "decent" what ever that means '15 T was in the US$15,000.00.  As you got older the price seemed to go up about $5k/year older.  If you went 1916 the price dropped by about 1/3 or more.

 

Nothing scientific here, just my observations from looking for about a year before I bought mine.  Of course condition and item like warford trans, ruxtel axle modify the price.

[1912Staver]

6 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Not that this is any sort of price guide, but when I was looking for my brass T, the numbers that I found are (and they are just ball park) a "decent" what ever that means '15 T was in the US$15,000.00.  As you got older the price seemed to go up about $5k/year older.  If you went 1916 the price dropped by about 1/3 or more.

 

Nothing scientific here, just my observations from looking for about a year before I bought mine.  Of course condition and item like warford trans, ruxtel axle modify the price.

My point exactly. That $15,000.00 U.S. price 1915 T becomes more like $25,000.00 + Canadian $ depending on how far away it is. Entry level 1950's cars start at around $5,000.00 Canadian. So the basic, entry level HCCA car is actually more like 5 times the price of a " starter " 1950's car. And that is not even thinking about the cost of the truck and trailer most brass T owners are eventually going to need if touring is part of the plan. Almost all 1950's cars can be used without a truck and trailer.

Edited March 22 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

15 minutes ago, Walt G said:

VERY TRUE but there are some car clubs who maintain the elite mode of activities and fail to realize that for a family who already have the cars to participate can't justify a fee to take along their kids or grand kids. Those kids are almost always well behaved do not " smear their fingers" over surfaces and would learn what it is like to participate have people hopefully be cordial and friendly to them.  Those kids are the future of the old car hobby but are kept at a distance - WHY?  Good memories created NOW will be long lasting and be passed on for generations - it isn't happening on a grand scale and that is also a reason interest is fading.................

 

In my world, my daughter and her husband tour one of our vehicles every year for the Lansing-Dearborn tour in conjunction with the Old Car Festival at Greenfield Village.  It took some time to get they to finally go on a tour, but once they went and had a good time, they were hooked.  They now schedule vacation every year to go on the tour.

 

As for the second generation after my wife and I we have been taking our oldest grandson on tours since he was six.  We are now taking him and his younger brother on tours this year.  Younger brother is finishing kindergarten.  The older one has been on six tours so far and just turned nine.  He went from being apprehensive on his first tour to now asks in the spring "when are we going on a tour".  He has made friends with some of the other youth that are brought on tours.  

 

We are scheduled to take the boys on three tours this summer while they are out of school.  We do not have a "DO NOT TOUCH" rule in out household.  The objective in our household is to have fun and pass on the experiences to the next generations.

 

Our rule it to careful AND respectful around the vehicles.

 

PS: Original owner in back seat.

 

 

Edited March 22 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Larry, this is exactly what it is all about - you are passing the torch to future generation THE WAY IT SHOULD BE DONE.  Great to know the tours you participate in welcome this. Some clubs frown upon that and kids just by their cost level. They do not think .

I have stated before here that I taught kids for 35 + years ages 5 and up , they look for guidance and learn from good examples they view , kids are a lot smarter then most people realize. SO wonderful to read what you told all of us MADE MY DAY, MY WEEK .

thanks my friend.

Walt

 

PS anyone remember the phrase we used to hear a few years ago "Take a kid to a car show" maybe that should be brought back again...............

[Larry Schramm]

22 minutes ago, Walt G said:

PS anyone remember the phrase we used to hear a few years ago "Take a kid to a car show" maybe that should be brought back again...............

 

Our motto is "take a kid on a tour".  By doing this you create memories that last a lifetime and maybe longer by being passed on to the next generation after them.

[CarNucopia]

On 3/22/2024 at 7:03 AM, TAKerry said:

This is by shear numbers alone. I can only speculate what disservice you are referring to. I would imagine most organizations involved with old cars has grown exponentially with the help, support and ownership by 'boomers'. Whether a car is restored to showroom condition, or hot rodded (which has been done to cars since the beginning) resto-modded or just left alone there is still an interest in 'old cars'.

 

I agree with your point completely. But, what Boomers giveth, they can also taketh away. Because they built the foundation of the hobby, they seem very reluctant to accept change. Most of the clubs and businesses that close seem stuck in time, only focusing on Boomer-era cars. There are also very Boomer-centric opinions expressed here, all the time, that are way off and only serve to alienate the next generation. For example:

• Younger people don't know how to work on cars
• All they care about is their phone
• They don't have enough money
• They lack an appreciation of old things....and so on.

As a Gen Xer with both JDM and Full Classics in my garage, I've interacted with the same people and been treated very differently based on what car I show up in. The unveiled contempt for me and my Japanese cars (also seen here on the forum) is really off putting. Many Boomers act like cars that fall outside that 55-72 window are a lesser class.

 

Anyone who thinks that car enthusiasm is dying has simple never spent time at an event that caters the next generation. It's like someone going to an Frankie Valli show and being convinced young people don't like music since none where there.

 

On 3/22/2024 at 10:27 AM, TTR said:

Which generation introduced and has been continuously rallying for lower cost, i.e. cheap & crappy quality parts for (vintage) cars, not only having forced almost all American manufacturers to move their productions to off-shore, killing countless domestic jobs and industries because of this insistence for cheaper, cheaper, cheaper ?

 

And please, do not blame manufacturers, as they’re only providing what their buyers, i.e. market buys/demands.

 

Similarly, which generation introduced and has become the most prominent proponent insisting on “profitability” for buying/owning/restoring/etc of antique/classic/vintage cars, instead of treating/viewing them purely as a hobby & passion for true enthusiasts ?

Why else would there be a need or desire for countless auctions, including online & TV Circuses, along with stupefyingly silly Build/Restoration/etc TV shows or articles/magazines offering “expert” analyses on  “Market Values” of “collectible” (see OP) cars be so popular, not to mention countless online discussion forums mostly filled with idle and/or irrelevant/pointless keystrokes ?

Which generation introduced and is most enamored by all that ?

 

I agree with your second point, but lay the blame on the race to the bottom price, elsewhere. IMO, offshoring parts was an effort to save money at a time when new regulations, and their associated costs, where being ramped up.

 

 

On 3/22/2024 at 11:06 AM, 1912Staver said:

My point exactly. That $15,000.00 U.S. price 1915 T becomes more like $25,000.00 + Canadian $ depending on how far away it is. Entry level 1950's cars start at around $5,000.00 Canadian. So the basic, entry level HCCA car is actually more like 5 times the price of a " starter " 1950's car. And that is not even thinking about the cost of the truck and trailer most brass T owners are eventually going to need if touring is part of the plan. Almost all 1950's cars can be used without a truck and trailer.

I have a '16 runabout in the Chicago I'll be selling for considerably less then$15K. The irony is, I replaced it with a '15 runabout that is a Canadian RHD car.

Edited March 24 by CarNucopia (see edit history)

[69merc]

20 hours ago, TTR said:

so let me try to offer a small window into how I view the world

Thanks for the explanation! 😀  I get what you're saying, and most of it's true.  But I don't believe laying all of it at the feet of the boomers is fair, or even characteristic of them.  The boomers just fall into that big category called "human." 

[69merc]

18 hours ago, CarNucopia said:

Many Boomers act like cars that fall outside that 55-72 window are a lesser class.

I know I've been guilty of that myself at cruise ins and shows, and I have been consciously trying to engage the owners of those later cars to expand my knowledge and appreciation. 🫠

[Walt G]

50 minutes ago, 69merc said:

I have been consciously trying to engage the owners of those later cars to expand my knowledge and appreciation. 🫠

A friend in the local Buick Club here on long island collects 1965 Buicks. Has some great cars. A few years ago he was kind enough to pick up a battery for me and drop it off. I told him when he did to bring his 3 sons along - all about 13 years old at the time. They arrived and his sons looked at my 1930 Packard and 1940 Buick in my garage, I said to them - Before you leave I want all of you to sit in the front seat behind the steering wheel and in the back seat to see what it is like and think about how different it is with your dad's car. and the difference in years , styling, how the dashboards look etc. they were all amazed that they were allowed to do that,but their Dad and I saw so many smiles and he took photos of that happening. Passing of the torch - the interest.

[JV Puleo]

The problem with discussing this topic is that everyone approaches it from their own unique perspective. As an example...I think I qualify as a "boomer" (born in 1951) and have absolutely no interest in any post war cars much less the later ones. People are free to pursue their interests whatever they are but I get tired being told I should embrace eras I lived through and would rather forget. I feel no nostalgia for the 50s, 60s or 70s. I don't expect 99% of car enthusiasts to share my interests either.

 

I should add that I'm willing to engage, and help, anyone who shares my interests, regardless of age or background. Age has no significance to me...interest does.

 

As to the original subject of this thread...this article is another example of pure "fluff". It's riddled with holes and specious reasoning. As said earlier, there are so many more later post war cars than their are earlier ones that it's no wonder they change hands more frequently. I'll add that I doubt Haggerty has access to data on the MANY private transactions that take place. I've never bought a car at auction...nor am I likely to and I imagine that is true for many of the members here. Placing any credence in these ill informed opinion pieces is a waste of time.

Edited March 23 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[BobinVirginia]

26 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

The problem with discussing this topic is that everyone approaches it from their own unique perspective. As an example...I think I qualify as a "boomer" (born in 1951) and have absolutely no interest in any post war cars much less the later ones. People are free to pursue their interests whatever they are but I get tired being told I should embrace eras I lived through and would rather forget. I feel no nostalgia for the 50s, 60s or 70s. I don't expect 99% of car enthusiasts to share my interests either.

 

I should add that I'm willing to engage, and help, anyone who shares my interests, regardless of age or background. Age has no significance. to me...interest does.

 

As to the original subject of this thread...this is article is another example of pure "fluff". It's riddled with holes and specious reasoning. As said earlier, there are so many more later post war cars than their are earlier ones that it's no wonder they change hands more frequently. I'll add that I doubt Haggerty has access to data on the MANY private transactions that take place. I've never bought a car at auction...nor am I likely to and I imagine that is true for many of the members here. Placing any credence in these ill informed opinion pieces is a waste of time.

Well said sir 

[Larry Schramm]

9 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

The problem with discussing this topic is that everyone approaches it from their own unique perspective. As an example...I think I qualify as a "boomer" (born in 1951) and have absolutely no interest in any post war cars much less the later ones. People are free to pursue their interests whatever they are but I get tired being told I should embrace eras I lived through and would rather forget. I feel no nostalgia for the 50s, 60s or 70s. I don't expect 99% of car enthusiasts to share my interests either.

 

I should add that I'm willing to engage, and help, anyone who shares my interests, regardless of age or background. Age has no significance. to me...interest does.

 

JV,

 

You and I are in the same perspective of the world.  We are one year apart on age.  With the exception of a couple of cars from the 50's to the 70's I have no affinity for those vehicles.  Then and even now to me they were oversize land yachts. 

 

One of the cars of that era that I liked was a Corvair turbo Spyder convertible.  Small, sporty, and fun to drive. Another memorable car that I had was a 1984 Buick Skylark T Type with the high output engine, every option except an automatic trans.  It had if I remember a four speed trans.  Another fun car to drive.  I would really like to have one of them now. 

 

Big cars are just not my thing, but I do like my full size truck because of the utility of the vehicle.

 

Edited March 23 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[CarNucopia]

1 hour ago, Walt G said:

A friend in the local Buick Club here on long island collects 1965 Buicks. Has some great cars. A few years ago he was kind enough to pick up a battery for me and drop it off. I told him when he did to bring his 3 sons along - all about 13 years old at the time. They arrived and his sons looked at my 1930 Packard and 1940 Buick in my garage, I said to them - Before you leave I want all of you to sit in the front seat behind the steering wheel and in the back seat to see what it is like and think about how different it is with your dad's car. and the difference in years , styling, how the dashboards look etc. they were all amazed that they were allowed to do that, but their Dad and I saw so many smiles and he took photos of that happening. Passing of the torch - the interest.

I agree with the point that we need to not only expose younger people to our cars, we need to engage them. One of the greatest joys of being at a show is letting a kid sit in your car. Where I think the problem lies is cultivating that interest once a seed is planted. Is there a next step to get them involved?  A 13 year old, if curious about prewar cars, is going to look at their phone and seek out ways to see and experience more. They'll look on Instagram, YouTube or TicTok and likely not connect with any of the traditional clubs (certainly not this one). They'll also come across newer cars, presented in a format that appeals to their tastes and generation. We are competing in a marketplace of interested and ignoring the modern tools to be successful.

Edited March 23 by CarNucopia (see edit history)

[CChinn]

JV and Larry,

 

I do not believe you are alone in your perspectives and interest in car eras. I also was born in the 50s (1958) and I like cars from the mid fifties and earlier. I have a ‘40 Chevy and ‘53 Packard. Maybe something from the ‘30s is a future acquisition. The only “modern” car we have is my wife’s DD. I prefer to drive my hobby cars. My interest in things from the ‘50s or earlier also extends to watches, clocks, automobilia and other antiques. My favorite watches are from the ‘20s and ‘30s

[Walt G]

1 hour ago, CarNucopia said:

Where I think the problem lies is cultivating that interest once a seed is planted. Is there a next step to get them involved? 

Yes, give them their own AACA membership.the may not seem like a big deal BUT IT IS. Yes, a lot of modern technology now - it used to be going to a stationary store and buying a car magazine was the thing to do when I was in my teens. Now the instant access factor on phones, computers etc. But unless there are people out there to post things from the earlier era that have the period material available it is difficult to "go further" for younger generations.  We are dealing with history, much of it written down in the age before instant knowledge, and much of it photographed ( with glass plate negatives and cameras on tripods with a hood over the camera and photographer) 

Resources is what is needed, I tried to do that here 4 years ago with period images and photos. It was received reasonably well. But as mentioned I just walked away because a lot of "experts" on here with lots to say just made me weary and I got really tired of the insults and lack of respect.  I just walked away.

[TTR]

On 3/23/2024 at 4:45 AM, 69merc said:

Thanks for the explanation! 😀  I get what you're saying, and most of it's true.  But I don't believe laying all of it at the feet of the boomers is fair, or even characteristic of them.  The boomers just fall into that big category called "human." 

Well, weren’t we talking about specific generations, not entire species, and their relative impact to the hobby involving old cars ?

Also, I said I could make list miles long, but didn’t say “all”.

 

OTOH, if one chooses/wishes to look at the bigger picture, i.e. everyone & everything outside the relatively small fringe* hobby involving old cars, most of my suggestions (listed or not) will apply to just about all aspects of our every day life*, but again it takes ability/willingness to open one’s eyes and horizon’s to see.

 

* We all know that vast majority of the world population couldn’t care less about what you and I hold dear about old cars. While some “outsiders” may find them amusing, most will never understand why we even bother with them, but same can be said of just about any hobby/interest we don’t necessarily share the passion for with those in to them, be it bird watching, gardening, golf, mountain climbing, live opera/theater (= another one of my interests/passion), literature (= another), skiing, etc…

 

** Just look around in your garage, home or office, count the percentage of appliances, equipment, furniture, tools, etc which are “Made in C***a” and ask yourself which generation started & pushed for all that, therefore making them, i.e. us, responsible for this downfall of domestic production and lasting quality in lieu of "I want everything cheaper !".

 

P.S. Even if you read this thread alone, you can see rifts in our hobby and passion, proving that the internet and forums like this (both something our generation ushered on to the world) aren’t necessarily all beneficial for it either, but then again, I've always believed anyone with ability for critical thinking can see that.

Edited March 24 by TTR (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

I see things from a slightly different point of view regarding offshoring . There has always been a parallel market for cheaper " second rate " goods. 

 Early post war era there was lots of low quality " made in { occupied } Japan " or " made in West Germany " goods on the market. Often almost as good as " made in U.S.A. " but generally quite a bit cheaper. As cost of living rose and income for many didn't quite keep up the market share of these second rate goods increased. Eventually the wholesalers and chain retailers started to source things in china. Profit margins rose, and owners / shareholders were ecstatic. I really don't think consumers demanded low quality goods. Just that their shrinking disposable income gave many no real choice. Share holder return over any other consideration just made things that much worse.

[TTR]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I see things from a slightly different point of view regarding offshoring . There has always been a parallel market for cheaper " second rate " goods. 

 Early post war era there was lots of low quality " made in { occupied } Japan " or " made in West Germany " goods on the market. Often almost as good as " made in U.S.A. " but generally quite a bit cheaper. As cost of living rose and income for many didn't quite keep up the market share of these second rate goods increased. Eventually the wholesalers and chain retailers started to source things in china. Profit margins rose, and owners / shareholders were ecstatic. I really don't think consumers demanded low quality goods. Just that their shrinking disposable income gave many no real choice. Share holder return over any other consideration just made things that much worse.

While the early post-war started the inclusion of more "offshore" production of "second rate"(?) goods, it is/was the "Boomers" who kept taking it further and further, eventually destroying all chances for "first rate" quality.

I believe if consumers would've "demanded" by voting with their wallets for better and lasting quality, instead of focusing on short term "savings" and/or extravagance of just having more "stuff", the supply industry would've had to comply. 

I don't have higher education in economics, but always thought that's how free market works, i.e. you get what you pay for, and if you keep expecting things to be and get cheaper, well ... 

 

Of course both our views can be equally right, kind of like whether one wants to believe or think which came first, the chicken or the egg.

But in the case what we have today, the choice between cheap and quality is just about gone and no amount of handwringing or typing in some obscure hobby forums isn't going to chance that or bring it back.

That ship sailed (and sunk ?) already few decades ago, but I don't think attempting to place a blame for it on capitalism (i.e. manufacturers, suppliers and their profits, etc) is the right answer either.

 

P.S. I know I've mentioned before that as part of my restoration business, I do and have produced variety of (high quality) replacements components and parts for various vintage car makes and models.

While my focus for all that has always been about making them as good or better than OEM (i.e. something I can be proud of and won't hesitate to install/use in my own cars), I've also always known that most of the items I reproduce serve a relatively small markets, but in the past 10 or so years have shrunk even more due to influx of "Made in C***a" items which generally cost only 20-40% of mine and tend to have noticeably inferior fit and quality, yet apparently there are those who are willing to compromise with such on their supposed pride and joy.

Oh, and due to this, not only have my "market shares" declined, but so has my "profits" on each item I sell and soon there won't be enough to continue with their production (I'll rather stop completely than embarrass myself by trying to compete downhill with low price crap).

 

Edited March 24 by TTR (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

From what I have seen , the more desirable  the car is the more demand for top quality parts.  The limited production sports cars I am involved with seem to have strong enough owner demand on parts quality that the parts on the market are at least O.E.M. quality . Unfortunately in many cases they are priced out of my reach and i am forced to seek out other peoples cast offs and re - hab them myself. But for example the main 1960's - 1970's TVR parts outfit these days expands their range almost monthly. And from what I have seen use the same philosophy you are using, it has to be good enough to use on your own vehicle, not just be cheap and ready to ship.

The other TVR outfit caters to vintage racers and their quality is so much better than what came from the factory in the 1960's. But at a price where I can't even afford a suspension A arm let alone anything major.

 

 The Ford , Chevy , Dodge market does seem to be very price sensitive. Been working on my 1970's F 250 lately. Parts are often remarkably cheap, but yes, chineesium. Still on a truck things are pretty overbuilt so not so much a factor as cheap, low quality parts on a sports car.

 My wife and I both drove Volvo 240's in the 1990's and early 2000's. I tried the aftermarket parts a few times as O.E.M. stuff from the dealer was pricy. But the quality just wasn't there and I quickly went back to genuine Volvo parts. Like you say, you get what you pay for.

[ABear]

On 3/23/2024 at 9:17 AM, JV Puleo said:

The problem with discussing this topic is that everyone approaches it from their own unique perspective. As an example...I think I qualify as a "boomer" (born in 1951) and have absolutely no interest in any post war cars much less the later ones. People are free to pursue their interests whatever they are but I get tired being told I should embrace eras I lived through and would rather forget. I feel no nostalgia for the 50s, 60s or 70s. I don't expect 99% of car enthusiasts to share my interests either.

I fall into the end of the "boomers", growing up late 60's into early 80's, I have appreciation for pretty much any decades of vehicles from horseless to modern day vrooms-vrooms. They are all "cool" in their own way and tell a long story about man's and humanities transportation attempts and failures. I have learned to "tolerate" some of the silliness of huge outlandish tail fins, the 80's squared off box cars, on and on. While I don't care to own a lot of them, I do enjoy looking and appreciating at what others have preserved  and that is key.

 

Personally don't really care to go to stuffy prestigious car shows, instead I really enjoy to show up at car cruises and interact with common folks who "bring what you got". From beautiful restorations to restomods, streetrods and then there is my humble, well loved and worn simple horseless carriage handed down through my family that just plain sticks out like a sore thumb. Eventually will be able to include the first car I owned which is highly scorned, put down and mocked by pretty much the entire automotive world.. It will never be a "concourse" level show car.. But it is my memories and my car.

 

Cars tend to connect people and generations with memories, if you want the car hobby to continue to be strong and grow, one must learn to bridge the generations gap. Not saying you must love every car generation and every human generation but the real life in keeping a hobby alive is for older generations of car people to engage the newer generations of young people and for that you have to meet them right where they are whether that is 50's, 60's, 70's or even 2,000's cars..

 

Take your vehicle of interest to local car cruises and engage the younger generations.. Talk to them, I stand beside my car and strike up conversations about it and the history of automobiles. You would be shocked at how little younger generations do not really know or understand the history of automobiles.

[Larry Schramm]

3 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I see things from a slightly different point of view regarding offshoring . There has always been a parallel market for cheaper " second rate " goods. 

 Early post war era there was lots of low quality " made in { occupied } Japan " or " made in West Germany " goods on the market. Often almost as good as " made in U.S.A. " but generally quite a bit cheaper. As cost of living rose and income for many didn't quite keep up the market share of these second rate goods increased. Eventually the wholesalers and chain retailers started to source things in china. Profit margins rose, and owners / shareholders were ecstatic. I really don't think consumers demanded low quality goods. Just that their shrinking disposable income gave many no real choice. Share holder return over any other consideration just made things that much worse.

 

For the consumer, it is called "the Walmart effect".

[Jim Skelly]

Without being political, the U.S. Government has spent far more money than the revenue they have taken in for over five decades, resulting in the national debt we now have.  As a result, taxes go up to provide money to pay government employees and fund all of the departments, give earmarks to politicians' districts, fund some infrastructure repairs (but not nearly enough), provide for military, welfare, etc.  Employers fed up with high corporate income tax and lower profit margins then move jobs to plants or subsidiaries overseas for the cheaper labor, and manufacturing plants close in the U.S. for a variety of industries.  We lost the markets for cameras, clocks and radios in the 1960s, textiles and steel in the 1970s, and just about everything else in the 1980s and 1990s.  Most people don't care where a product is made or how it affects employment for others.  They just want a quality product at a reasonable cost.  It has forced American manufacturers to improve the quality and features of their products.          

[TAKerry]

I had to go back to the top to see what the original topic was?