48 Chrysler Windsor - installing Pertronix solid state - where do I connect black ignitor wire?

[48ChryslerNick]

Hello, 

I have burned out enough condenser's -- so I decided to install a Pertronix electronic ignition. Car is 6 volt positive ground.

Ignitor Black/White wire is connected to the negative ignition coil stud.

 

Where do i connect the black ignitor wire?   

A new set of tires and I should be on the road!

 

thanks in advance

nick

 

[Frank DuVal]

I think this is funny, I answer Pertronix questions on Corvair forums too many times.😉..

 

According to these directions, the black wire goes to the ignition switch on positive ground Pertronix igniters. This should be the wire that used to go to the - terminal of the coil before you removed it to hook up the black/white Pertronix wire. 

 

https://static.speedwaymotors.com/pdf/4471282P6.pdf

 

 

[c49er]

Better have a back up Pertronix too.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:23 AM, c49er said:

Better have a back up Pertronix too.

Back up not needed!!   Full voltage IS needed.

 

 Folks really should check back occasionally.

 

  Ben

[61polara]

I wonder how Pertronix works with the required grounding of the ignition system for the simi-automatic transmission to downshift when the accelerator is floored. I think I would try to find out why your condensers are burning out.

[Manymotos]

Pertronix can be contacted by phone, i have talked with them a number of times. When it comes to electronics the risk of frying your ignition because you didn’t want to call them doesn’t make their product bad. With few exceptions I have have pretty good results with their products. Remember, there are not dumb questions, call them.

[timecapsule]

On 12/3/2023 at 6:33 AM, 61polara said:

I wonder how Pertronix works with the required grounding of the ignition system for the simi-automatic transmission to downshift when the accelerator is floored. I think I would try to find out why your condensers are burning out.

I was pondering the same question in my head as I read the OP.  In all the years I've had my '48 Windsor, I've never had any issue with the condenser.   

[TTR]

On 12/3/2023 at 6:42 AM, Manymotos said:

.When it comes to electronics the risk of frying your ignition because you didn’t want to call them doesn’t make their product bad. 

No, but their own lack of adequate engineering, manufacturing & understanding do, even if visiting their headquarters (after the calls didn’t provide solutions) and physically showing the evidence of this to several members of their engineering/management staff, then waiting in the lobby for them to correct the issue, only to have it returned in exactly same incorrect configuration. 

And yes, their units are known (& experienced) to suddenly/unexpectedly “die”, so carrying/keeping a spare in the vehicle/on hand is a good advise, but then again, same can be said of all ignition (& other electrical or fuel related auxiliary) systems in vintage cars, especially if traveling long distances with limited access to parts and services.

[TTR]

17 hours ago, timecapsule said:

I was pondering the same question in my head as I read the OP.  In all the years I've had my '48 Windsor, I've never had any issue with the condenser.   

I have couple of experiences, but then again, I probably have over half a million combined miles behind the wheels of variety of vintage cars with points & condenser ignition systems and comparing that to 5-10 problems I’ve encountered with aftermarket electronic ignition systems in similar vehicles within likely less than 20K combined miles, I have more faith in former.  

[maok]

I have never had a Pertronix module fail on me in the last 5 years of running them on 3 different mopars. Though, I sold one recently and changed another to a HEI distributor.

 

Make sure to use the correct ohm coil and not leave the ignition on while the engine is NOT running. Don't be afraid to increase the plug gaps a little and probably give it more advance.

[Bhigdog]

"Carry a spare" is a common comment when the subject of  pertronix arises. I have pertronix modules in all my collector cars including a 6 volt unit that,s going on 25 years old. I,ve yet to have a failure. 

In all that time i,ve also never had to lay across a hot engine, dropped a teeny screw into God knows where, dented a radiator tank with my knee, scuffed a fender top with my belt, needed a dwell meter, point file, or needed to complain about the shi**y chinese points available.

BTW every car made in more than the last 30 or so years has electronic ignition....bob

 

 

 

[pfloro]

1 hour ago, Bhigdog said:

BTW every car made in more than the last 30 or so years has electronic ignition

I believe Chrysler offered it as an option in 1972 and then made it standard across the board in 1973.  I'm not sure, but I believe GM made HEI standard in 1975 when catalytic converters arrived.

I don't know when Ford joined in...

 

I carried a spare EI module for the 12 years I owned my 1973 Plymouth Duster.  Throughout ~116,000 miles, I never needed it (and never had to fiddle with the timing either)...

My sister-in-law had a 1965 Valiant and my brother would remove the distributor from the slant six to change & adjust the points...!

 

Of course EI is not perfect but in my experience, the pros outweigh the cons...

 

Paul

Edited December 10, 2023 by pfloro (see edit history)

[JACK M]

After reading all this it might be suggested that carrying a spare is not really necessary.

However, that's all backwards, we all know that if you carry spare parts you won't need them.

So, I dare you, leave your spare pertronix home next time you plan a long trip.

[keithb7]

I tend to connect the black Pertronix wire to the bottom of my shop garbage can. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

9 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

i,ve also never had to lay across a hot engine, dropped a teeny screw into God knows where, dented a radiator tank with my knee, scuffed a fender top with my belt,

Then how did you install the Pertronix module?😁 Skyhook? ❓  Ha ❗

 

🦃 🦃 🐖 🍠🥔🎄 🕎 ❄️

[Frank DuVal]

7 hours ago, JACK M said:

After reading all this it might be suggested that carrying a spare is not really necessary.

However, that's all backwards, we all know that if you carry spare parts you won't need them.

So, I dare you, leave your spare pertronix home next time you plan a long trip.

That's the only reason I say to carry a spare on a trip, as not every store carries a Pertronix module to swap in for a test. Of course, neither do they carry points, rotor, condenser, cap for cars of this age either. I also tell people to carry these spares on a trip.

 

Either will break at the most inopportune time! ❗

 

🦃 🦃 🐖 🍠🥔🎄 🕎 ❄️

[hook]

9 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

That's the only reason I say to carry a spare on a trip, as not every store carries a Pertronix module to swap in for a test. Of course, neither do they carry points, rotor, condenser, cap for cars of this age either. I also tell people to carry these spares on a trip.

 

Either will break at the most inopportune time! ❗

 

🦃 🦃 🐖 🍠🥔🎄 🕎 ❄️

It's funny hearing everyone talk about condensers going bad in VINTAGE CARS. Back in 1964 I had one fail in a 1961 Lincoln Continental. That was not a vintage car then. From then on I've carried spare ignition parts, Pertronix or std points/condensers that use them. Today's cars requires a prayer book.

[EmTee]

I have Pertronix on my '67 Riviera, as it was there when I bought the car in 2016.  So far, no issues, but it does appear to also have a Pertronix coil on it if that matters.  All of my other cars are OE points & condenser.  The 10 month-old condenser in my '38 Buick died and left me at the curb in June.  Fortunately, it was just around the corner from my house.  I have spare points & condenser in the glovebox of both my '38 and '64 GP -- just in case... 

[Bhigdog]

What I carry around is a AAA card. One card fits all my cars ............Bob

[Lahti35]

On 12/3/2023 at 9:22 AM, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Back up not needed!!   Full voltage IS needed.

 

 Folks really should check back occasionally.

 

  Ben

100%... If you're electrical system is not in good shape you're better off with points. Pertronix will not cure bad grounds, faulty equipment, corroded wires.

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, Lahti35 said:

Pertronix will not cure bad grounds, faulty equipment, corroded wires.

True. But it WILL get blamed for all the above..............Bob

Edited December 11, 2023 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[EmTee]

22 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

What I carry around is a AAA card. One card fits all my cars ............Bob

Also be sure to have a good book to read while you wait... 

[Frank DuVal]

5 hours ago, EmTee said:

On 12/11/2023 at 8:52 AM, Bhigdog said:

What I carry around is a AAA card. One card fits all my cars ............Bob

Also be sure to have a good book to read while you wait... 

I'd rather replace a small part and continue on my way that wait hours to tow to where? Hershey, to get impossible to find locally parts? Then wait for October? Locally being where your car broke.

 

I did say carry spares if you are on a trip, if a short tow home gets to your parts stash then that does work. 300 miles away, not so much.😉

 

🦃 🦃 🐖 🍠🥔🎄 🕎 ❄️

[hook]

On 12/11/2023 at 8:52 AM, Bhigdog said:

What I carry around is a AAA card. One card fits all my cars ............Bob

Yup, that'll do it! Wait, Wait, Wait, then finally get towed to who knows where only to hear. "We can't fix that, we can't get the parts" That is if they know what's wrong in the first place.

[JACK M]

Not to far off topic here buttt

I came home one night and there was an older (70s or 80s) Dodge diesel pick up in the driveway.

Never had seen it before, Called the next-door neighbor who has old Dodges and he congratulated me on a cool truck. Wasn't his.

I was at a loss so I let it sit for a couple of weeks.

Then some kid knocked on the door and asked if I had had a chance to look at it. No, I don't know anything about Diesels.

Turns out his insurance company had a list of destinations that they would tow to.

Turns out that there used to be a guy that rented one of the outbuildings several years before I bought the place, but that mechanic had been gone for about ten years.

The poor kids insurance company would not retow the thing again and refused that this was their mistake. I told him not to be in a big hurry to retrieve it. Its not in my way and kinda felt sorry for him.

Several days later it was gone when I came home.

I called the owner kid and he told me that he had to foot the tow bill which took up all of his money and he couldn't afford any repairs, so he had it towed to his house.

I suspect it still in his driveway after these two or so years.

 

I guess the moral of the story would be to stay with the vehicle.

[Bhigdog]

I suppose that if you are taking an old and somewhat unreliable car on a long road trip it makes sense to carry  spares of likely failure items. For trips under 100 miles from home or your trailer why bother?

That said, and in my experience, a properly installed Pertronix module is not a likely failure item.

Nor have I had to lay across a hot engine, etc etc etc because none of my collector cars have had points once I got hold of them. Brand new rebuilds breathed their first breath with Pertronix units.

None of them use DOT 3 either.

And I use modern detergent oil and  EP grease.

Old may neat, it may be fun, but it's most often far from "better".............Bob

[edinmass]

I’m not a fan of Pertronix. For post war applications their stuff seems ok at best. How do you know your 1935 Whatsit? Has the right advance curve, base timing, minimum rpm advance above cranking? Too many variables that can just be left to chance. Think about how manny BILLIONS of miles have been driven on six volts and points. From 1910 to 1975 every car on the road used “unreliable “ things called carburetors, mechanical fuel pumps, and till the mid 50’s six volt batteries. 

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

How do you know your 1935 Whatsit? Has the right advance curve, base timing, minimum rpm advance above cranking? Too many variables that can just be left to chance

Admittedly I'm not too familiar with 1935 Whatsits but aren't all the actions above a function of the distributor itself? The points being meerly a dumb ole switch doing what it's told to do by the distributor. Close now and open when I tell you. On/Off with no in between.

In other words just a mechanical Pertronix unit.

And, as I think about it, isn't the voltage of the spark directly related to the strength and speed of the coil's collapsing magnetic field? An electronic switch should be capable of near constant voltage near instant action where a mechanical switch would be subject to inevitable resistance, voltage drop, mechanical delay and arcing. Would that not slow the collapse resulting in a weaker and possible "off time" spark?

Just sayin............Bob

 

 

[61polara]

This has turned into another radial vs bias ply issue.  The OP's question has been issued.  Let's agree to disagree and move on.

[edinmass]

Bob, the very nature of solid state points replacement “switches”  would be fine if the unit didn’t include the base and cranking timing solid state logic that is in all of them and not reprogrammable. Thus below some set number of rpm’s the Pertronix unit is retarding the timing until it hits its base rpm and bumps it up to what ever some random engineer decides to program into the circuit. Thus a Pertronix unit isn’t a “switch replacement” for mechanical points. At a friends request years ago, I worked with Pertronix making a custom one off application for a fairly advanced 30’s “super car”. (We built an eight magnet reluctor and installed it in the car……interesting and difficult.) Nice bunch of people, who are “generic electronics engineers “ and not combustion engine designers and developers. We could talk about coil saturation, and an endless list of other factors…….in the end, there is no benefit from moving to electronic from mechanical switching. In fact, dual points were invented with dual coils to prevent lag time of coils recharging………the one problem with the fancy dual points and dual ignition coil cars like Pierce, Duesenberg, Cadillac, and many others………..a single set of points and a single coil can easily keep up with any pre war engine because you need to turn about 12,000 rpm’s to get out front of the coils ability to recharge and collapse. Thus virtually every dual points set up weather single or dual coil is a waste of time, money, engineering, and especially additional maintenance complications for 98 percent of mechanics working under the hood. To say it in plain English………..there is no pre war car that can benefit from switching from points to electronic ignition. 
 

Interesting discussion.

 

PS- to really benefit from todays modern electronic ignition systems, you need a crankshaft position sensor reading a reluctor wheel so spark can occur within the crazy parameters of the fuel injection, variable cam timing, and pollution control systems. It’s very difficult to wrap one’s head around how fast the computers in modern cars respond today…..and remember all these fancy systems are designed for one primary function…….and it’s NOT fuel milage or performance……..every vehicle’s system is designed for emissions first and foremost.  To the detriment of milage and performance.

Edited December 13, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[maok]

50 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Bob, the very nature of solid state points replacement “switches”  would be fine if the unit didn’t include the base and cranking timing solid state logic that is in all of them and not reprogrammable. Thus below some set number of rpm’s the Pertronix unit is retarding the timing until it hits its base rpm and bumps it up to what ever some random engineer decides to program into the circuit. Thus a Pertronix unit isn’t a “switch replacement” for mechanical points. At a friends request years ago, I worked with Pertronix making a custom one off application for a fairly advanced 30’s “super car”. (We built an eight magnet reluctor and installed it in the car……interesting and difficult.) Nice bunch of people, who are “generic electronics engineers “ and not combustion engine designers and developers. We could talk about coil saturation, and an endless list of other factors…….in the end, there is no benefit from moving to electronic from mechanical switching. In fact, dual points were invented with dual coils to prevent lag time of coils recharging………the one problem with the fancy dual points and dual ignition coil cars like Pierce, Duesenberg, Cadillac, and many others………..a single set of points and a single coil can easily keep up with any pre war engine because you need to turn about 12,000 rpm’s to get out front of the coils ability to recharge and collapse. Thus virtually every dual points set up weather single or dual coil is a waste of time, money, engineering, and especially additional maintenance complications for 98 percent of mechanics working under the hood. To say it in plain English………..there is no pre war car that can benefit from switching from points to electronic ignition. 
 

Interesting discussion.

 

PS- to really benefit from todays modern electronic ignition systems, you need a crankshaft position sensor reading a reluctor wheel so spark can occur within the crazy parameters of the fuel injection, variable cam timing, and pollution control systems. It’s very difficult to wrap one’s head around how fast the computers in modern cars respond today…..and remember all these fancy systems are designed for one primary function…….and it’s NOT fuel milage or performance……..every vehicle’s system is designed for emissions first and foremost.  To the detriment of milage and performance.

I am not sure that the base model Ignitor 1 has any of the features you have mentioned, yes, the ignitor 2 & 3 probably do.

 

Your description of 'some random engineer' is probably unfounded, Pertronix have been manufacturing and modifying, as need be, these devices for some time now, I'm sure the 'some random engineers' understand the requirements of a simple pre and post war ignition system requirements.

Edited December 13, 2023 by maok (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Interesting discussion, indeed. 

I tend to agree with you there is no tangible performance  benefit to a pertronix.  I was meerly speculating. I do remain of the opinion that a pertronix unit is far and away the best choice for reducing needless maintenance.......bob

[Ltc4748]

I have been installing pertronix from time to time over the last 20 years in cars, tractors, trucks and boats. The performance has been some what more reliable than a set of points and condenser. Early this spring I installed pertronix in a Ford 9N that had a 12 volt conversion, and verified the coils Ohm reading. The tractor ran fine for about 3 months and the owner called me to tell me it quit. The ignitor assembly failed, wait several days for a new one to arrive and it was up and running again. It ran the rest of this year so far.

When running a point system, providing the condenser or coil is not the failed component I can clean the contacts, set the gap and back to running with the only cost being some of my time. The cost of the pertronix to me is prohibitive to carry spares in every vehicle I have. the cost of a condenser and a point file that is kept in the car with the basic tool set I carry gets me where I want to be. I enjoy working on vehicles almost as much as I like driving them. For those who cannot do their own work Pertronix installed correctly is probably best for them.

As for reducing maintenance by using pertronix that can also cause other issues. When my vehicle starts cranking longer because the points are getting dirty it is a sign to me to clean or replace them and do proper lubrication of the Distributor and other items in the engine bay that need periodic attention. 

[EmTee]

9 hours ago, Ltc4748 said:

As for reducing maintenance by using pertronix that can also cause other issues.

"Reduced maintenance" is really the fundamental advantage of Pertronix.  I agree, however, that unlike modern cars, there are lots of other items on classic cars that require regular maintenance.  The issue today is poor quality of replacement ignition points and particularly condensers.  That's why I carry a 'known good' condenser in the glovebox of my cars that use them.  I have a NORS remanufactured distributor for my Riviera on the shelf, but I'm content to run the original distributor with Pertronix as long as it continues to behave itself...

[edinmass]

My 36 Pierce 12 has about 27k miles on it since I restored it. At 20k I pulled the distributor and checked it on my Sun Distributor Machine. It was excatly where I set it.....back in 1991.......and today almost 33 years later it's still fine. I would not call that much of a maintanance issue. In reality, points were replaced as routine years ago for no reason. I expect the points in my car will be fine for another 33 years.....if I live that long.

Edited December 13, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

7 minutes ago, edinmass said:

My 36 Pierce 12 has about 27k miles on it since I restored it. At 20k I pulled the distributor and checked it on my Sun Distributor Machine. It was excatly where I set it.....back in 1991.......and today almost 33 years later it's still fine. I would not call that much of a maintanance issue. In reality, points were replaced as routine years ago for no reason. I expect the points in my car will be fine for another 33 years.....if I live that long.

 

 Aren't choices grand?   I am happy for folks like edinmass that CAN check their distributor on a machine.  I am happy for those of us that cannot.  Our choice is just as important as yours. To us.

 

 But, you know, the original poster, who,  btw,  has never checked back, did not ask for our [ your ] opinion of Pertronix.  He only asked where a black wire should be connected, I believe.

 

  Ben

 

[Bhigdog]

And we pretty much told him where to put it...........Bob

[Frank DuVal]

I told him exactly where it (the black wire) went. Even gave the OP a link to instructions.❗

 

Then the wheels feel off the apple cart, and I helped! 😮

 

🦃 🦃 🐖 🍠🥔🎄 🕎 ❄️