tell me why in the world nobody makes a 6 volt power pack to jump start a 6 volt system?

[Eddie-O]

Hello all,

could someone tell me why in the world nobody makes a 6 volt power pack to jump start a 6 volt system? Every car show I go to either local, regional, or national, when anyone talks about a 6 volt system almost at the top of the list is why no power packs available. There must be a good explanation but I’ll be darn if I know why. Don’t tell me there is not enough demand for one, just think of how many 6 volt systems are still on the road. Just go to Hershey and look around. If a manufacturer made one I bet they couldn’t keep them on the shelves the first two years. Oh well, just looking for a reasonable answer to a simple question. Hope everyone is enjoying the summer? Just think, less than a month is Labor Day. All the best

[Bloo]

Good question. I went to the bottom of that rabbit hole several years ago, it might have been 2012. There was ONE company that made them, worldwide. They were available in France for about the equivalent of $800 USD. Of course that was just the unit. That didn't include shipping it here, nor was anyone suggesting the option. At that time, if you spoke a little French, you might have been able to arrange it. Later on I think I heard they had stopped making them.

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[maok]

How about keeping a fully charged 6-volt battery in the trunk with jumper leads as a backup?

[Bloo]

Maybe an Optima. Nobody wants to haul around a spillable battery everywhere.

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, maok said:

How about keeping a fully charged 6-volt battery in the trunk with jumper leads as a backup?

 

This.  Or the best solution is two optimas in the battery box with a three way switch.    I need to find the right switch.   This one is made for marine implementations but doesn't look appropriate:

 

[alsancle]

Maybe this one?

 

[EmTee]

Using two 6V batteries (e.g., the Optima) also allows for the possibility of implementing a series/parallel combination to provide both 6 and 12 Volt outputs.  The parallel combination provides extra capacity for starting while the series combination can be wired to provide 12 Volt circuits, as required, to support modern electronics.  The dual-6V arrangement also allows for a 12 Volt 'jump' (give or receive).

[alsancle]

The switch I posted last has a 500/700 Amp capacity.  I think that is enough for 6 volt starters but does anybody smarter than me have a comment?

[Grant L. Meredith]

1 hour ago, EmTee said:

Using two 6V batteries (e.g., the Optima) also allows for the possibility of implementing a series/parallel combination to provide both 6 and 12 Volt outputs.  The parallel combination provides extra capacity for starting while the series combination can be wired to provide 12 Volt circuits, as required, to support modern electronics.  The dual-6V arrangement also allows for a 12 Volt 'jump' (give or receive).

I was thinking this the other night for signal lights 

[EmTee]

1 minute ago, Grant L. Meredith said:

I was thinking this the other night for signal lights 

Yes, however, there are 6 Volt dual-filament bulbs (e.g., 1154) that could be used for that.

[Guest]

 You can run 2 6v batteries thru a knife switch depending on position the car will be set for 6 or 12v.  Throw the switch use your box or 12v charger, once charged flip it back and run on 6v.  It's a boat trick so that you can switch to 24v and still start with dead 12v batteries.

[Eddie-O]

All great alternatives guys but again, still not realistic to haul extra battery or modify the system. I knew my question would open up a host of ways to modify a system, but that’s not my question.. A simple power pack is the practical solution. So again, why doesn’t a manufacturer  come out with one? I’m sure you all could come up with a hundred different modifications but a simple solution for a simple guy like me is a simple power pack. Is there a flat out reason why they are not made? My money is in hand for the first company to make one. It can’t be that difficult .

[Morgan Wright]

You don't need it. If your 6 V battery dies just jump it with anybody's 12 V, or your own if you trailered it there. It's not like a DC motor knows what voltage it is. I ran a fork lift that was 12, 24, or 48 volts with a flip of a switch.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Eddie-O said:

So again, why doesn’t a manufacturer  come out with one? 

Only the manufacturer can answer that question.  The rest of us merely guess, my guess is there isn't enough profit in it.

[maok]

Pull apart a 12 volt jump starter and stick a 6 volt battery in it. I'm sure there is a bit more than that but hey why not give it a go.

[IFDPete]

58 minutes ago, maok said:

Pull apart a 12 volt jump starter and stick a 6 volt battery in it. I'm sure there is a bit more than that but hey why not give it a go.

Been there done that.  Sealed lead acid batteries in jump starters are pretty small compared to car batteries.  I did swap the 12v sealed lead acid battery for a similar size 6v in a jump starter once.  The 6v did not have enough power to turn my 49 Buick straight eight.

Edited August 12, 2023 by IFDPete (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil]

Answer:

 

The hand crank. 
 

Keep it under the back seat. 
 

Never needs charging. Always ready. 
 

Worked perfect twice in my 27 years of ownership. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

4 hours ago, Eddie-O said:

 It can’t be that difficult .

 Economics!  Build your own.   Can't be that difficult.

 

  Ben

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Brian_Heil said:

Answer:

 

The hand crank. 
 

Keep it under the back seat. 
 

Never needs charging. Always ready. 
 

Worked perfect twice in my 27 years of ownership. 

A crank is on my list . . .

[Bloo]

4 hours ago, Eddie-O said:

So again, why doesn’t a manufacturer  come out with one?

Well, you are going to need a stout battery. Something like a 6v Optima would do nicely and it is even about the right shape. I just priced them on Amazon. $249. https://www.amazon.com/Optima-Batteries-8010-044-Starting-Battery/dp/B00099HVN6/  Then some really stout cables and clamps. That toy stuff that comes on 12v jumper packs isn't going to get the job done. Here are some clamps from Polar Wire that might do, $19.55 each, so almost $40 for a pair: https://store.polarwire.com/1000-amp-black-replacement-jumper-cable-clamp-with-copper-strap/ . You'll need some 2/0 welding cable. If you want to set it on the ground, these 2 5 foot pieces from Amazon for $57.68 should do (shipping included): https://www.amazon.com/Gauge-Flexible-Welding-Battery-Copper/dp/B07KBBRYR , or if you want short leads like a typical pack that you have to sit up on something under the hood, maybe about 6 feet of cable from wireandcableyourway for $27.24 would do (shipping not included): https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/2-0-welding-cable-class-k . Now you need to keep the battery charged, so you need a small battery charger to go in this beast. You might get by with a 1.5 amp maintainer like this for $19.99, and maybe even shipping included if you buy more stuff at the same time: https://www.amazon.com/Yishen-Intelligent-Automatic-Maintainer-Motorcycle/dp/B074KK8RCW/ I have one about like this that works great, but a 6v Optima is a fairly powerful battery (and it needs to be for this). I think its about 50 amp hours. If you ran that way down trying to start a stubborn car, it would take an unreasonable amount of time to recharge, probably about a day and a half. That wouldn't do for a commercial product. The charger would need to have a maintainer function though, even though it would need to be a considerably bigger charger. It can't need babysitting. This Noco Genius 5 amp version would probably do (barely) for $69.95: https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GENIUS5-Fully-Automatic-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B07W8KJH44/ . And you haven't even had a plastic box made in China yet. Maybe that won't cost much.

 

Sure, a manufacturer could get all the materials cheaper than Amazon discounted retail, but I still think there is going to be $400-450 in materials in this thing easy. What would it sell for? $500? $600?  I do think the $800 unit in France was pretty steep, and that was several years ago too, but this still isn't going to be cheap. I think the number of people in the hobby who can both 1) afford this, and 2) who will buy it rather than bellyaching that it should be $29.95 like a 12v one down at Harbor Freight is rather small. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

While we might think there are "lots" of us out here with 6 volt cars, compared to the mass market of 12 volt cars, there is just not enough volume to justify a manufacturer selling one of these. I also don't much see the need. You can start about any 6 volt car with a 12 volt jump box or using battery cables from either a 6 or 12 volt car, as long as you use common sense and are careful. Additionally, if your car is in good shape, and you use a good battery (Optimas are my favorite although not cheap), you should almost never need such a product. In my 1937 Roadmaster Model 80C, I have two 6 volt Optima batteries wired in parallel, just because I am crazy enough to like to play period music through the original tube type 1937 Buick radio by way of a small AM transmitter hooked up to recorded music when I am at car related events. I don't play it loud, but when people are looking at the car, they can hear it and it brings a smile to a lot of faces. Running that tube type radio for a couple of hours would suck the juick out of most single batteries but two Optimas handle it well. I have never had to jump start the car even with that type of use, since I went to the parallel Optimas.  

 

[60FlatTop]

27 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

there is just not enough volume to justify a manufacturer selling one of these. I also don't much see the need.

The perception of manufacturing and marketing products will lead a person to a lot of assumptions. Like looking at a restoration project as just a bunch of 10 minute jobs.

 

When manufacturing reaches the point where "economies of scale" kick in with full effect, that's when the light comes on. Like Wow! Once one experiences it things are never looked at the same.

[bobj49f2]

I have many times jump started my '49 Ford truck with a 12 volt vehicle.  The one time it died at a nearby grocery store and had my son bring his newer Ford truck with a Power Stroke diesel to give me a jump.  That was not the ideal vehicle to use.  The power it takes to start and run a Power Stoke made my truck sound like the engine was ready to fly out of the truck.   Way too much power but a typical 12 volt powered car will work fine as long as you turn everything off before hooking up the cables.  I take the cable off as soon as the truck starts, the charging system doesn't like the added power and makes a ticking sound.

One more thing to think about powerwise.  Anyone use their cellphones when touring around in their old Buicks?  I made a very simple charging port in my Ford truck.  I use it to keep a charge on the cellphone as I'm using the GPS feature.  I just bought a simple power port, cigarette charger type, and ran a fused circuit to it ( the case has to be (-) and the center post (+).  I plug my charging unit into and it works great.  All a charger needs to see is 5VDC to charge the phone.  My truck is positive ground so I have a piece of plastic to insulate the mounting plate to the underside of the metal dash  and nylon bolts to fasten it.   You could also find a plastic unit but I thought the metal one looked a little more period correct.  

 

 

[Den41Buick]

I guess I was fortunate. I purchased a Battery Butler from England about 10 years ago. I put it on a charge and it still works. 

[Eddie-O]

AKA Firstborn, 

Tell you what. If it’s not that difficult, I’ll pay for the materials and your time and you can have at it. Test it, make it hold up and work like it should, along with practicality and I’ll have it copied and manufactured. Then I’ll be seen at a booth at Carlisle and Hershey and ten to one I’ll sell out of them. That’s what dreams are made of! 
Still looking for that simple answer. Must be there isn’t one.

All the best gentleman.

[Brian_Heil]

If you have to use 12v to jump a 6V car this is a better way to do it.  The article assumes a negative chassis ground. 
 

Another thought on these jumper boxes.  If you can find one made up of cells, could you dissect it and bypass a couple of the cells to reduce voltage but would you have enough amperage remaining to turn things over is the next question?

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, Eddie-O said:

AKA Firstborn, 

Tell you what. If it’s not that difficult, I’ll pay for the materials and your time and you can have at it. Test it, make it hold up and work like it should, along with practicality and I’ll have it copied and manufactured. Then I’ll be seen at a booth at Carlisle and Hershey and ten to one I’ll sell out of them. That’s what dreams are made of! 
Still looking for that simple answer. Must be there isn’t one.

All the best gentleman.

 

 LOL.  Eddie, you are FUNNY.    The quote above my post came from YOUR post.   So not my thought. Just agreeing?   The first word in my post answers your question of why.

 

  I expect if ANY manufacture determined such a product would be profitable they would be all over that.

 

  Ben

[mobileparts]

Hey Eddie-O,

  After all the money you will have spent to make these, paying the vendor spaces at 

Carlisle and HERSHEY, and the incidentals, etc., etc.,….

 

At least we will all know where to find you…. You will be the TOPLESS guy ….

because you will have lost your shirt !!!!!

 

Craig…..

[Mark Shaw]

let's find a DC radio guy (here on the forum) who can provide the circuit diagram and parts list to make our own 6V jump starter. 

I am no electrical engineer, but maybe a big resistor on a 12V jump starter that could do the job that Brian suggested?

 

 

 

[EmTee]

4 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

...but maybe a big resistor on a 12V jump starter that could do the job that Brian suggested?

Technically yes, but the voltage divider's load resistor would dissipate just as much power as is supplied to the car being jumped.  It would be very inefficient.  The simplest solution would be to carry a 6V Optima (or at least a second wet cell) and a set of jumper cables in the trunk.

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, EmTee said:

It would be very inefficient. 

To the point of absurdity, unfortunately. To do the same work at 6 volts that you were doing at 12 volts takes double the current. So, pulling some numbers out of the air, if it took 200 amps to jump a 12v car, you could expect to need 400 amps out of your pack. The battery would need to be twice as big to supply that current. Then you would need to waste half it's power as heat in the resistor. 400 amps x 6 volts = 2400 watts you would need to waste. That is going to get HOT. For comparison, a 120 volt electric portable space heater someone might use in a house typically dissipates 1500 watts as heat.

 

 

[edinmass]

So……the easy solution is use a 12 volt jumper pack with a solenoid switch to provide the power. You can jump any 6 volt car with 12 volts……IF you know what you’re doing. As long as only the ignition is on and NOTHING else at all……the car won’t care and will be just fine for the few seconds. It will turn faster……but other than that everything will be all right. Using a 12 volt battery with regular jumpers is NOT safe. I will post a photo of my set up tomorrow. If a car has a startix it won’t work, as the engine will spin so fast that the generator output will kick out the starter relay. 

[Eddie-O]

Mobile parts,

You are right in me losing my shirt. That’s because I’ll be on the beach in Hawaii and collecting all the residuals from my battery pack! LOL

Still can’t believe it’s not possible or practical but as I’ve said more than once in previous posts, I’m no electrical engineer. We can put men on the moon, launch and use daily satellites, have cell phones and GPS, “COME ON” a lousy 6 volt power pack that’s practical is a pipe dream! I’ll never except that answer.

My $$ is still in hand for the guy, or gal, who can prove me right.

All the best you all

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Bloo said:

To the point of absurdity, unfortunately. To do the same work at 6 volts that you were doing at 12 volts takes double the current. So, pulling some numbers out of the air, if it took 200 amps to jump a 12v car, you could expect to need 400 amps out of your pack. The battery would need to be twice as big to supply that current. Then you would need to waste half it's power as heat in the resistor. 400 amps x 6 volts = 2400 watts you would need to waste. That is going to get HOT. For comparison, a 120 volt electric portable space heater someone might use in a house typically dissipates 1500 watts as heat.

 

 

I was waiting for someone to bring up doubling the amperage.  Yet another reason 6 to 12v conversion is popular, the wires and connections carry half the amperage.  

[MCHinson]

41 minutes ago, Eddie-O said:

 

Still can’t believe it’s not possible

It is possible. It would just not be profitable due to the small market. Companies don't usually provide a service unless it can also provide a reasonable profit for them. Carrying a charged Optima 6 volt battery and a set of jumper cables in your trunk would be a much cheaper solution than trying to buy a 6 volt jump box. Some people already do this. The reason few people are carrying an extra Optima battery with them is they don't want to spend the cost of the extra battery. Why would they spend even more money for a less effective option?

[Bloo]

43 minutes ago, swab said:

I was waiting for someone to bring up doubling the amperage.  Yet another reason 6 to 12v conversion is popular, the wires and connections carry half the amperage.  

 

And a reason it shouldn't be popular, except in street rods, etc. where all the electrical equipment is newer and meant for 12 volts. Running things on double their intended voltage has always been problematic because you have to waste half the power any of the 6 volt equipment uses. That is even worse than it sounds because the current drawn by a 6 volt device is double what it would have been for a native 12 volt device, and you have to get rid of the heat somewhere. And then if the current drawn by the devices you are powering is not constant, you need something more sophisticated than resistors or the supply voltage swings all over the place (gauges come to mind). Then there is the additional complication that probably 50% or more of those 6 volt systems were positive ground originally. Some devices can work with the positive and negative reversed. Others just burn up.

 

Ohms Law and Kirchoff's law aren't going away. If a majority of people in the hobby understood electricity, 12 volt conversions would be rare.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

 Running things on double their intended voltage has always been problematic because you have to waste half the power any of the 6 volt equipment uses.

What "things" and equipment are you referring to?  The generator is generating so it's ruled out, 3rd brush adjustment and it charges 12v fine.  Ignition is simple swap out coil/condenser.  Lights are simply changing bulbs which then have oversized wire.  Switches?  There is the starter of course but on many it is engaged manually and has a push button switch.  Gauges are manual, wipers usually vacuum.  The horn?  True but the momentary usage is just a louder klaxon.  

[Bloo]

Gauges, heater blowers, electric wipers, radios, basically everything else. The starter doesn't like it either but it usually lasts quite a while, and isn't a big deal as long as it is one you can still buy new parts for.

[Grimy]

4 hours ago, MCHinson said:

It is possible. It would just not be profitable due to the small market. Companies don't usually provide a service unless it can also provide a reasonable profit for them. Carrying a charged Optima 6 volt battery and a set of jumper cables in your trunk would be a much cheaper solution than trying to buy a 6 volt jump box. Some people already do this. The reason few people are carrying an extra Optima battery with them is they don't want to spend the cost of the extra battery. Why would they spend even more money for a less effective option?

I've run Optimas exclusively for 20 years.  On my 6-cyl cars, one Optima is plenty.  On my 8-cyl cars, I run a pair of Optimas in parallel, primarily for increased reserve capacity for night driving when the 3-brush generators' 25A gets stepped down to a max of 17A or so as it warms up (a design feature of the time).  More than once have I removed one of a pair of Optimas to loan to a tour participant when their generator failed.  And I carry an extra charged Optima in the trailer (or, on a progressive tour, in the car) just in case.

 

Although this has been pretty much a fun intellectual exercise, I've intuited before that carrying an extra 18-lb non-spillable Optima is the most practical solution.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Grimy
rephrased for better understanding (see edit history)

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Bloo said:

Gauges, heater blowers, electric wipers, radios, basically everything else. The starter doesn't like it either but it usually lasts quite a while, and isn't a big deal as long as it is one you can still buy new parts for.

I guess I have been working with different vehicles.  Mechanical gauges, pre radio, vacuum wipers.  Although on the 38 I did have electric gauges but I would have to go back and look but either they work almost great on 12v or I used a step down.  The only reason they don't work great is due to the backlighting hard to see at night but the bulbs are brighter 12v than 6v!