Mark Smith auction April 7th, this Friday, who on this forum is going?

[alsancle]

9 minutes ago, charlespetty said:

Schutte coachbuilder.

It is the factory Springfield body that was updated by shuette in period .. I think there’s some documentation floating around but I didn’t see it.

 

Here  is the factory locomobile body number from the rear floor board.

Edited April 9, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[F&J]

15 minutes ago, Antichrysler said:

Here are a couple of pages of his notes: 

Well my suspicion about the car being customized as far as windshield design have now been verified by the entry 3/19/38 which proves it was modified....   This car's records makes it a very unique and extremely interesting slice of history on owners that had some sort of serious attachment to their aging cars and were adding personal styling changes.

 

I'm not up on high end factory body builders styles of 1929, but i knew the windshield design, the angle, the style/shape of the chromed w/s frame, were dated to no earlier than mid 30s.  (looks like a 35-36 Ford or other US conv style of those years)

 

...there is a UK member here with a 28? Chrysler conv with a very modified W/S angle, and at first he did not believe it was "modified later in life" until more members kept saying it was not done when new. He now has been searching for it's history since realizing it was not a factory body.

 

 

I have wondered what it was like to be a body guy doing these customs back then.  I think I would have been applying for a job there.   In 1974 or 75 while working at a small Dodge dealer, the owner came out in the shop to talk to me... if he put his arm around you, you knew he was up to something.  Well, he was all kissing my butt with ability compliments then finally asks me to cut the tops of the doors off on a brand new Ramcharger Dodge! (Blazer type vehicle).  Dodge made all dealers buy certain Accessories and Spare Parts when a new model came out, and he hated having slow moving inventory..  One thing he was stuck with was a black soft top kit for the new Ramchargers.  He then ordered a new Ramcharger without the hardtop as a way to get rid of that soft top. 

 

However, a few months into production, Dodge stopped making the modified Ramcharger doors that had no door tops (like a convertible door), and then used the standard pickup doors. He was shocked when the roofless Ramcharger showed up with the later doors and knew the early soft top would not fit it.   I did find a way to cut the door tops off and we ordered the plastic cover pieces that Dodge used on the factory modified early doors, and I was able to do it without needing to paint anything like he insisted. 

 

He was an old hot rodder and ordered the bright Hemi orange body color/black interior. to offset the black soft top and then ordered very wide Keystone Classic wheels with wide tires. He put it in the "New Car Dealers indoor auto show" in Hartford Ct and it was a show stopper by all accounts, and it sold instantly there. 

[1937hd45]

Frank, Is this the same 1934 LaSalle that was in your shop years ago? 

[alsancle]

4 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Frank, Is this the same 1934 LaSalle that was in your shop years ago? 

I’m fairly sure it’s the car that was sold at one of the Dragone auctions maybe seven or eight years ago.

[alsancle]

10 hours ago, Antichrysler said:

@1937hd45 I don’t have all of the paperwork yet — just select pages that were Dropboxed. It looks to me like he did most of the repairs himself.  He had it from 1931-66.  He was living in Europe during most of the 30s, probably with no dealer support, and it looks like he spent a fair amount of his days puttering around with the car (which I guess you do as a 1930s heir). I mean — who else has time to sit around 1938 Berlin having your window frame and hubcaps rechromed while Hitler is busy getting ready to invade Poland? I also like that the guy helping him work on the Stutz was named Harry.

 

Here are a couple of pages of his notes: 

 

Your car was pictured in Classics and Specials Magazine in 1952.   You can get one off ebay.

 

 

[George K]

12 hours ago, alsancle said:

It is the factory Springfield body that was updated by shuette in period .. I think there’s some documentation floating around but I didn’t see it.

 

Here  is the factory locomobile body number from the rear floor board.

Did it have a front left door sill with a stamped body #? Durant may have dumped that practice after his takeover.

[alsancle]

5 minutes ago, George K said:

Did it have a front left door sill with a stamped body #? Durant may have dumped that practice after his takeover.

 

George,  I wasn't smart enough to look there.  In retrospect,  other than inspecting the jugs,  and making sure I fit in it I did very little inspection considering I was going to be bidding.   The problem is that if you really start looking hard you realize what a tremendously bad idea it would be to actually win one of the cars.    I will say for this car,  it was very original and untouched.  There is black paint under the beige.  Very little over-spay spots and I believe it was painted a long long time ago.

Probably a discussion for the Loco thread,  but if you look in the catalog, you see a Springfield sedan body that looks identical with exception you can wear a top hat while driving.

[trimacar]

Funny cars,those Locos.  I don’t believe any mid-20s cars had “jugs”, cylinder blocks yes, jugs no.

[George K]

In defense of A.J. Use of jugs I also use the same vernacular. I suppose it’s a term used by automobile hipsters.

[F&J]

8 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Frank, Is this the same 1934 LaSalle that was in your shop years ago? 

When I looked at all the pre-auction pics a week ago, I was sure it was not, because it looks like the windshield is all milky from delamination? (or is that barn dirt?)   Anyways I just looked at my old pics, and yes it is the same car down to matching dings on fenders, the single fog light and cowl mount antenna.  

 

We are supposed to be about history of cars...... A very close friend of the deceased prior CT owner of this car told me this following story....who knows what is true or embellished?  >>  The car was owned for many years/decades by another guy in CT and it was used in WW2 by some Civil Defense? member, to "patrol the Connecticut river from Hartford Ct to the Mass border, looking for suspicious river travelers". This friend said that the huge hole drilled in the top center of the upper windshield frame was for a 2 way military type radio antenna .  Who knows if it's all made up.  Pic below was taken by me a long time ago and you can see that drilled hole:

 

 

4 hours ago, alsancle said:

I’m fairly sure it’s the car that was sold at one of the Dragone auctions maybe seven or eight years ago.

Correct, it was that same car.  It was an estate sale and from what I heard back then, Manny Dragone was a long time friend of that deceased owner. Anyways, I "think" the car brought $68,200 at that sale not including tax and buyer premiums.  Much later after that sale, I ran into a "friend of the guy who bought it there" and he said his friend resold it, because the restoration estimates far outweighed it's finished value.

 

....That car really ran sweet and the ride and handling was great.  IMO

 

.

 

 

[alsancle]

The coupe (44K) and the convertible coupe (48K)  sold for similar money.   I would have been thrilled with either but they came up before the Locomobile.   I put both of those cars in the bargain category as you NEVER see them available.

 

 

[TAKerry]

I take provenance stories for just what they are. Stories. Some good some truly unbelievable. Written history is another deal. Peoples minds fog with age, things are embellished just a bit to sound better etc. Things change from one owner to the next.

[edinmass]

10 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

I take provenance stories for just what they are. Stories. Some good some truly unbelievable. Written history is another deal. Peoples minds fog with age, things are embellished just a bit to sound better etc. Things change from one owner to the next.

 

The best fiction in America is being written on tax returns and automobile auction catalogs.

[F&J]

1 minute ago, alsancle said:

The coupe (44K) and the convertible coupe (48K)  sold for similar money.   I would have been thrilled with either but they came up before the Locomobile.   I put both of those cars in the bargain category as you NEVER see them available.

Thanks for posting the sale prices...i'm shocked at the conv price...how many owners lost money since the car sold at Dragones...good grief, it's like the crypto market. 

 

The estate that had that conv years ago, also had a 34 LaS coupe, silver color, kinda beat up more than the conv.  Dragone ran it through a later auction but failed to make reserve.   The widow later found a buyer for the coupe possibly through Hemmings? ... (she also found a buyer for the 34 LaS sedan in similar condition as the other 2 LaSalles, definitely she sold it through Hemmings .....and she told me that the sedan buyer was using it for parts for a 34 conv, somewhere in upstate NY?)  I just can't recall the pricing due to my bout with Lyme, but I think the sedan was listed for at least 30k in Hemmings...yikes...for using it for parts???   (All 3 cars ran great when sold way back then.)

[1937hd45]

I've got the license plate off this Bugatti from back when Bob Oliver owned it, That was a world record braker when it sold for $65,000. around 1972. Bob

Edited April 9, 2023 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Does anyone know who the new Babcock owner is? It arrived here in town in the 1960's, from Boston with Dr. Henry Minot a heart surgeon and Harvard classmate of Henry Austin Clark. I remember a few details about it have a windshield card or parts of it from a VMCCA meet in the late 1940's, last time it ran I believe.

 

Bob 

[alsancle]

Here are the complete auction results:

 

https://www.goodingco.com/auction/realized/estate-of-mark-smith-auction

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, F&J said:

Thanks for posting the sale prices...i'm shocked at the conv price...how many owners lost money since the car sold at Dragones...good grief, it's like the crypto market. 

I think most people expected the car to do better……….when you look at this sale with a magnifying glass, it becomes apparent that the car market today is much different than just five years ago. Explain to me why the 34 LaSalle open car brought less money than the 1910 White coupe that is just garage art. Simple fact is, cars under 500k in value are in a weird state of flux………..and the great, and hugely expensive  “big boy toy” cars are doing fine. Best advice……..buy what you like, and pretend you have a zero cost basis in it………..or the hobby is going to get a lot less fun in the next twenty years.

Edited April 9, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[trimacar]

The Babcock was a very nice car.  I was fortunate enough to work on a 1910 Babcock, the one in the Watertown museum, I did the top and interior.

 

As a friend states, a shade nicer 1910 with no front doors.

 

I really liked the Babcock, though the “king of the road” twin six Packard and the White steamer dwarfed it.

 

I couldn’t take good pictures due to lighting in warehouse.

[trimacar]

Model K was nice too!

[alsancle]

The Lasalle sold for 68K at the Dragone auction back in 2013:

 

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/en-gb/item/22323470_1934-lasalle-convertible-coupe

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Walt G]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Best advice……..buy what you like,

Once you do, make sure it runs as new and then DRIVE IT. Life is short, I know that from experience. Be glad you are here to read this, have friends and some mechanical toys to share with your friends. Make people happy by sharing your cars, especially kids , they are the next generation of enthusiasts . think of the phrase "take a kid to a car show" it will be the best you can do. I have a friend who collects mid 1960s cars, told him to bring his three early teens boys over for a visit. I told them that before they left they all had to sit in both the front and back seat of my 1930 Packard and 1940 Buick and also behind the steering wheel. Looking at pictures is fine but 'the real deal " of actually being in a earlier car is an added experience and an added memory. . 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)

[Jim Mead]

Were the Brewster and Packard “30” and Model T Ford Town Cars all just garage art too ?

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, Jim Mead said:

Were the Brewster and Packard “30” and Model T Ford Town Cars all just garage art too ?

 

Nice cars, but strictly garage art.

 

 

[Jim Mead]

I love to tour, but I appreciate Art too. My Dad was a Carriage Collector and I read the Carriage Association of America’s “Carriage Journal” religiously.  Learned a lot of nomenclature. Plus my German Sauerbrey Grandfathers were blacksmiths 5 generations back in the Saar Valley. My Great Grandfather, Jacob Sauerbrey came from Germany to work as a tire setter for his Brother, Christian, who was already here, Superintending the local Champion Wagon Works Co. 

 

So a fine hand crafted wooden body floats my boat. 
 

Which might help explain why our Family bought the…….Babcock. 

[wayne sheldon]

2 hours ago, Jim Mead said:

Were the Brewster and Packard “30” and Model T Ford Town Cars all just garage art too ?

 

I sure do like that Babcock! Congratulations on that one!

 

As for the model T towncar being mostly garage art? I wondered about it. Model Ts are of course well supported by the hobby, nearly a hundred clubs, and several very good parts suppliers, and are generally very good tour vehicles! So I begin to wonder why some people would consider it simply "garage art"?

That question posed? When it comes to the T towncars, I have never been much of a fan of them. Which puts me outside much of the model T world that seems to adore the things?

As I recall, 1917 was the last official year that Ford factory provided the towncar body style. They had been in the lineup from the beginning of the model T, and even a few towncars were built by the factory in the "pre-T" era. After-market coach builders had also been building various towncar, limousine, and taxicab, bodies since before the automobile required them. One of the problems with model T towncars has always been knowing whether a survivor was Ford factory or after-market? After-market coach builders continued to supply towncars and the like throughout the remainder of the model T era.

Model T towncars were also popular in Europe. Bodies for them were generally built in Europe because it was much more economical to ship chassis only and build the bodies locally there. A couple years ago there was quite a bit of discussion on the MTFCA forum about an original towncar being restored in India! Interesting car!

  

I looked over the photos (good pictures!) of the towncar before the auction. I frankly do not know the towncars well enough to know the factory bodies from the after-market ones? However, I DO know model Ts well enough to have spotted several errors in the car and/or its restoration. Although for the most part it looked pretty right. Those errors do however also make me question its past somewhat.

Even though I am not a big fan of the towncars, I would be curious to know from others if they know more about this car and if it is or isn't a factory body?

[gossp]

5 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

 

That question posed? When it comes to the T towncars, I have never been much of a fan of them. Which puts me outside much of the model T world that seems to adore the things?

 

I think this boils down to the towncars being about the most rare of the most common car. The model T guys need something to covet just as a Model J owner might long for an SJ or a guy with a closed Pierce 8 looks at an open Pierce 12.
 

The T that I really wonder about in the auction is the couplet…. A closed car and an open car, hcca eligible, coveted by the t crowd, rare and attractive enough to hold your head high on a tour with more prestigious cars, and model t maintenance cost. 13k seemed cheap. 
 

 

[edinmass]

I thought the 13k was cheap also………..problem is it’s such a nice original……..I would only seldom drive it.

[Guest]

I was at an earlier one of these auctions, nowhere near as nice of cars but still amazing.  A friend made some purchases and next month will be final delivery out to him.

 

[pkhammer]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

I thought the 13k was cheap also………..problem is it’s such a nice original……..I would only seldom drive it.

The engine was stated to be a later circa 1922 unit and the serial number on the title dated it as a 1920 so things were a little off. Sure looked like a nice car for the money but those details no doubt held it back.

[trimacar]

11 hours ago, Jim Mead said:

I love to tour, but I appreciate Art too. My Dad was a Carriage Collector and I read the Carriage Association of America’s “Carriage Journal” religiously.  Learned a lot of nomenclature. Plus my German Sauerbrey Grandfathers were blacksmiths 5 generations back in the Saar Valley. My Great Grandfather, Jacob Sauerbrey came from Germany to work as a tire setter for his Brother, Christian, who was already here, Superintending the local Champion Wagon Works Co. 

 

So a fine hand crafted wooden body floats my boat. 
 

Which might help explain why our Family bought the…….Babcock. 

Congrats on buying the Babcock!  I sure enjoyed seeing the car in person, very original and solid.

 

Do you plan to keep as is, or restore it?  Always the question.

 

Sitting at the auction, I commented to my friend that I might be the only person in the room who's actually worked on a Babcock, a 1910, the one in the Watertown Historical Museum (cars built there in Watertown, NY).  Did the top and interior, it was restored at White Post Restorations and is a beautiful car.

 

[drhach]

On 4/9/2023 at 1:56 PM, Walt G said:

 Make people happy by sharing your cars, especially kids , they are the next generation of enthusiasts . think of the phrase "take a kid to a car show" it will be the best you can do. 

Also, if you can get you kids in to owning classic cars, they won't have any money left over to buy drugs

[Restorer32]

My Son was 7 1/2  weeks old when he attended his first Hershey.  This year will be his 41st.   He just paid for his lifetime membership. Safe to say I believe he's hooked. 

[Cadillac Fan]

On 4/9/2023 at 11:02 AM, alsancle said:

The coupe (44K) and the convertible coupe (48K)  sold for similar money.   I would have been thrilled with either but they came up before the Locomobile.   I put both of those cars in the bargain category as you NEVER see them available.

 

 

 

 

What would you do with them?   Restoring them to 99 points would be a minimum of 200k and more than likely you could purchase this in a few weeks for less than the cost of restoration.  

https://listings.worldwideauctioneers.com/listings/enthusiast-auction-2023/1934-cadillac-355d-eight-stationary-coupe/

 

The Cadillac has way more presence that the LaSalle. 
 

My guess is that a mechanical restoration is a minimum of $20k, if you are doing it yourself and $40k for someone else’s labor.  
 

So now you are at $70-90k.  Probably now you want to paint it.  $20k minimum.   Now chrome, $15k. Now interior, $15k.  

 

You are getting pretty close to the worldwide Cadillac that you can enjoy for the three years you were restoring one of the LaSalles to a driver condition car.  

 

 

[alsancle]

8 minutes ago, Cadillac Fan said:

 

 

What would you do with them?   Restoring them to 99 points would be a minimum of 200k and more than likely you could purchase this in a few weeks for less than the cost of restoration.  

https://listings.worldwideauctioneers.com/listings/enthusiast-auction-2023/1934-cadillac-355d-eight-stationary-coupe/

 

The Cadillac has way more presence that the LaSalle. 
 

My guess is that a mechanical restoration is a minimum of $20k, if you are doing it yourself and $40k for someone else’s labor.  
 

So now you are at $70-90k.  Probably now you want to paint it.  $20k minimum.   Now chrome, $15k. Now interior, $15k.  

 

You are getting pretty close to the worldwide Cadillac that you can enjoy for the three years you were restoring one of the LaSalles to a driver condition car.  

 

 

 

Mechanically sort them and be the hero of most shows.    Why would you restore either one of them?

[Cadillac Fan]

3 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Mechanically sort them and be the hero of most shows.    Why would you restore either one of them?

Because, especially the convertible, is pretty rough body wise.  And once you start you end up doing everything.  
 

I know that this is sacrilege in 2023, but they, to me, are very solid restoration projects.  

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, Cadillac Fan said:

Because, especially the convertible, is pretty rough body wise.  And once you start you end up doing everything.  
 

I know that this is sacrilege in 2023, but they, to me, are very solid restoration projects.  

I guess we will have to disagree. One of the forum members did a lot of work on the convertible. I don’t know that it would need a lot to be a driver. I personally don’t really care about shiny paint.

[West Peterson]

Because it's a hobby. 

[TAKerry]

I like have a restored car with shiny paint, but I could be equally happy in a good running classic with shabby paint as well. Probably enjoy it more. I have a couple of nice modern cars, but our dd is a 20 yr old expedition. It runs good enough, but is well beyond its prime. I dont worry at all anywhere I park it. If someone bangs a door no big deal. In fact, I would imagine people are afraid to park beside it, LOL.

[wayne sheldon]

10 hours ago, gossp said:

I think this boils down to the towncars being about the most rare of the most common car. The model T guys need something to covet just as a Model J owner might long for an SJ or a guy with a closed Pierce 8 looks at an open Pierce 12.
 

The T that I really wonder about in the auction is the couplet…. A closed car and an open car, hcca eligible, coveted by the t crowd, rare and attractive enough to hold your head high on a tour with more prestigious cars, and model t maintenance cost. 13k seemed cheap. 
 

 

 

6 hours ago, pkhammer said:

The engine was stated to be a later circa 1922 unit and the serial number on the title dated it as a 1920 so things were a little off. Sure looked like a nice car for the money but those details no doubt held it back.

 

I had noticed those issues on the couplet. The title could be a serious problem in some states. Some states aren't all that bad to regenerate a missing title (others are somewhere between horrible and impossible!)? Ever try to correct an incorrect title? 

 

I agree about part of the mystique of the towncar being that it is the "most rare of the most common". They were once quite common on the streets of a very few large cities working as taxicabs. Very few T towncars survived as most were driven into the ground (figuratively speaking). I once saw a photo of the streets of New York, and counted over a dozen T towncars in the one photo!

 

If the couplet body was in good enough condition to be used extensively, everything else wrong on the car would be easy to make right (except maybe the title?). I myself have probably everything necessary to make a proper chassis for a late 1915! Anything it needed could probably be had cheap enough, and a lot closer to there than I am (Besides, I am not looking to sell my horde yet!) It would make a great HCCA car! 

Thirty years ago I drove my early 1916 model T center-door sedan on a Regional group's annual big tour. One of the other cars on the tour was a 1915 folding top couplet! The two made quite a pair on that tour. Sadly, a few years later that couplet was destroyed in a garage fire. Someone did eventually begin to restore the couplet, but I never heard if he got very far or not. Ray Wells was going to restore the body. He had restored two other folding top couplets and had all the patterns necessary to reconstruct the burned car.