Recently got a 63 Riviera.

[Route 66 Texas]

Hi.  New member, just joined today.  Will be starting the restoration of my 1963 Riviera and I'm running into things that don't make sense.

 

The car I got was from the son of the original owner, it's a local car from our small town in Texas.  The engine isn't original, it's been replaced with a Buick 350.

 

The weird thing is it has a front bench seat and a column shift, but that doesn't seem to be possible for this year.  Also the shift pattern is P R N D L2 L1, which also doesn't seem possible.

 

From what I can find those don't seem to have been available options, but I see no indication that it's not original?

 

Here are some pictures.

[RivNut]

Someone went to a lot of trouble and expense to go through all of that.  

[Seafoam65]

All 63-65 Rivieras came with front and rear bucket seats and automatic shifter in the console.

 

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Looks like factory only because the space below the radio where the console would go up against seems to be one piece. Does not have the open gap where the console would attach to the lower part of the dash. Could it be a special order ?

[Riv Eng]

30 minutes ago, arnulfo de l.a. said:

Looks like factory only because the space below the radio where the console would go up against seems to be one piece. Does not have the open gap where the console would attach to the lower part of the dash. Could it be a special order ?

Maybe a Skylark or Electra dash with Riv cluster & radio? Would be easier, faster and cheaper than a custom Dash assembly. 

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, arnulfo de l.a. said:

Looks like factory only because the space below the radio where the console would go up against seems to be one piece. Does not have the open gap where the console would attach to the lower part of the dash. Could it be a special order ?

If someone took the time and made the effort to remove the floor shift and console and put in a column shift with a bench seat, they may have parted out an Electra or a Wildcat and installed the complete dash as well as the instrument panel from a 64 Riviera.  Who ever did the work put some thought into it.  
 

Edit: The etching of the data plate shows the car was built 10C, the 3rd week of Oct. Codes 728 J2 are the codes for Silver leather and bucket seats.  I’m sure the data plate shows the originality of the build.

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Dundee]

Welcome! Can’t wait to hear some more theories here. If it was all about a fifth seat you thing the back would have been a better option. 

[Route 66 Texas]

It's interesting that the codes show a silver interior, even the vinyl on the door panels is blue. If it's been modified that much, it would be difficult to bring it back to original, so I may just have to make a mostly original hot rod out of it.  Fortunately it came with all the trim, even the wheel centers.

[RivNut]

I keep getting drawn back to this post as I look at the pictures, especially the one of the tracing of the Fisher Data plate.  The U8 is the code for both powere windows and power vents, the X is the code for Twilight Sentinel, Guidematic wiring, and the Z4 is for the remote trunk release.  Originally painted Silver Cloud (DD) with silver leather (728).  I see the cruise control switch and a AM/FM radio as well.  Would be interested to see if it’s equipped with cornering lights and four note horns.  Quite a well equipped car in its day.  If the body is solid and it runs well, it might be worth bringing it back to its original glory.  The shift quadrant could indicate that the Dynaflow has been replaced by an ST400 transmission.  Hopefully we’ll get to see some more detailed pictures.

[Route 66 Texas]

I will get some more pictures tomorrow.  It has the twilight sentinel on the dash, though I have no idea if it works.  It has power seats, and windows, that do work, and another pot control on the armrest, not sure about that.  Also has the power trunk release.  The body is very straight and solid, but the engine will need a rebuild.  Barely made it home, also barely has brakes, very scary ride home.  The paint, where it still exists, is blue even in the most obscure places, so it must have been a very well done re-paint.

[XframeFX]

7 hours ago, Route 66 Texas said:

Will be starting the restoration of my 1963 Riviera and I'm running into things that don't make sense.

Congrats with your new acquisition!

50 minutes ago, Route 66 Texas said:

Barely made it home, also barely has brakes, very scary ride home.  The paint, where it still exists, is blue even in the most obscure places, so it must have been a very well done re-paint.

Good to hear it runs. With my previous projects, I've learned a long term plan (and crew) is required to do a major strip for a nut and bolt restoration. Probably not your plan. Best to tackle one item at one time to keep it mobile. Except engine rebuild of course.

 

It appears that column shift , bench seat and colour change was done when your Riviera was a late model back in-the-day. Something like a RHD conversion. A newer engine/transmission might have been done later. The car is 60 years old after all. The interior is most interesting. Fun to research the changes and its history!

Yes, more images. Especially the driver's armrest control panel, steering column (tilt?), instrument panel (shift quadrant), HVAC controls, VIN number and engine compartment

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by XframeFX (see edit history)

[Paul K.]

What did the seller say about the interior and engine swap? Being the son of the original owner, I assume he has known the car all of his life. 

[EmTee]

It would certainly be good to hear whether the son has any insight on the rationale behind the modifications.

[Route 66 Texas]

Thanks for all the information.  I finally pulled back the carpet where the console would have been and found a piece of sheet metal riveted over the hole where the original shifter was.  Someone surely went to a lot of trouble to make a change that I would never even have considered making.

 

Now very torn on which way to go with this.  Finding all the pieces to go back to original would be nearly impossible.

 

I got some more pictures. 

[Route 66 Texas]

Does anyone know what trim belongs on the top of the trunk lid?  Not sure if I have that piece?

[Pat Curran]

1 hour ago, Route 66 Texas said:

Does anyone know what trim belongs on the top of the trunk lid?  Not sure if I have that piece?

There is a ribbed trim piece that goes just below the rear window and above the trunk lid.  1963 and 1964 are the same.  1965 is different.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Pat Curran
Update content (see edit history)

[MikeJS]

2 hours ago, Route 66 Texas said:

Now very torn on which way to go with this.  Finding all the pieces to go back to original would be nearly impossible.

Tough call, not sure your budget, ultimate desires for the car, etc. but based on what I see, I would lean more to the "Rat Riv" look, especially with the wild DIY interior and some nice looking patina especially on the roof, too bad the hood didn't have the same colour match. Couldn't imagine the time, effort and cost to restore the interior back to original, but to each their own. Although not to everybody's taste, some rat-rods are pretty darn cool...

 

Later,

[EmTee]

I guess you have a decision to make: (1) buy a complete interior (or another parts car) to allow restoring the car back to its original configuration or (2) celebrate the modifications and 'restore' it as a bench seat Riviera that GM could have built.  In either case, I would look into how difficult it would be to restore a nailhead powertrain, whether with a Dynaflow or ST-400.

[RivNut]

3 hours ago, Route 66 Texas said:

Does anyone know what trim belongs on the top of the trunk lid?  Not sure if I have that piece?

It’s there.

[RivNut]

5 minutes ago, EmTee said:In either case, I would look into how difficult it would be to restore a nailhead powertrain, whether with a Dynaflow or ST-400.

We haven’t seen pictures of the engine yet. Maybe it’s a column shift because of a non-nailhead engine swap.

[EmTee]

He states it has a Buick 350 in it now.  I guess if the swap is well executed, maybe it's OK -- at least it is a Buick engine...

[BulldogDriver]

Ed he stated that it was transplanted with a Buick 350. I’m surprised that the steering column fitted so well. 
 

Ray

[EmTee]

4 minutes ago, BulldogDriver said:

I’m surprised that the steering column fitted so well. 

It looks like a later '60s or early '70s column; maybe from an A-Body (e.g., Skylark) with the shift quadrant on the column.  Look closely and see where the 4-Way flasher knob screws-in...

 

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by EmTee
typo (see edit history)

[XframeFX]

5 hours ago, Route 66 Texas said:

Now very torn on which way to go with this.  Finding all the pieces to go back to original would be nearly impossible.

This Post is attracting a lot of activity. Maybe because of the 6 passenger novelty.

 

Strong point is that this Riviera is mostly complete and that it has AC. Although the radiator has just a finger guard, no shroud that I can see. Steering column appears to be from a late '70s Chevy Van (no steering lock until 1980)

 

This car needs everything. Yes to purchasing a parts car to revive this one or, there are plenty of parts among us. Make a list! I have restored veneer door panels and many used parts.

[RivNut]

After looking at some pictures (again) of the dash, my latest conclusion is that the car has the original 63 instrument cluster.  In the one picture with the sun flare, there appears to be a switch installed above the ignition switch.  It’s probably either the light switch or the wiper switch. But where’s the other one? Both are on the console on the 63. .????

[Route 66 Texas]

I have at least 95% of the trim, including the hood spear with the flat emblem.  Missing the original radio though.  Except for the shot engine, and no brakes, the ride and handling are like new.  I think the hood , trunk lid and doors were removed and primered off the car, that's the reason for the different colors of primer.  I've never seen doors on a car this old close so effortlessly. 

 

So I think my options are ->

 

1.  Full restoration, finding a console, a nailhead, and the original transmission.  Based on looking around at whats available on the internet, this would be really tough.

2.  A partially restored, rebuild the engine, probably with a little extra oomph, maybe/probably rebuild the transmission, re-do the interior as is with it's odd modifications, nice paint job, all trim reinstalled and where needed re-chromed.

3.  Make it into a hot rod, a really built engine and transmission, raise it up a little in the back with some fat tires and paint it black and redo the interior black with bucket seats in the front, with most of the exterior trim re-chromed.

 

Having a tough time with this.  Its hard to start before you know where you want to end up.

[RivNut]

Chances are you will not own the car for the rest of your life.  Think about what it would be worth down the road in each of the three scenarios, then think about what kind of buyer it would appeal to in each scenario. 

[RivNut]

Here are some pictures of what your Riviera looked like when delivered. This car has the optional cast aluminum wheel covers and a dealer installed tachometer in the console.

[65VerdeGS]

Hate to pop in with this, but your money is better spent on buying a better example. 

 

This car needs 'everything' and although it runs, would cost far more to restore that it would be worth when finished.

 

Now if you got this car for free, then enjoy it as-is and start saving for a nicer example.

 

 

 

 

[XframeFX]

2 hours ago, RivNut said:

Here are some pictures of what your Riviera looked like when delivered. This car has the optional cast aluminum wheel covers and a dealer installed tachometer in the console.

Pictured '63 a good comparison. Not only colour but both Rivieras are early '63s with power vents. I've found the master panel on the driver's armrest to have a different angle to later panel/base assemblies

[JZRIV]

Welcome to the forum!

Apologize if this sounds a little blunt but that project will be a money pit and high level of frustration beyond what you can imagine. You are correct in your assessment that obtaining the many parts needed will be a difficult and costly task. If you want to proceed, buying 1 or 2 parts cars would give you a fighting chance. Shipping costs for everything have skyrocketed. Much further ahead to start with something not so hacked up where you aren't inheriting many sins of past owner. If you were planning on building a custom where it would be gutted anyway and you have an open ended budget, then that's different, but you'll still be way upside down in investment vs value if you are remotely concerned about that. Customs aren't always easy to sell because of the very small buying pool.

May the force be with you! 

[RIVNIK]

If you've already purchased the car & it rides as good as you say I would spend as little as possible getting it to run better, fix the brakes, clean up the engine bay & interior, basically make any value it may have as a restomod more apparent to a potential buyer, & then try to recoup your losses. If you got a great deal on the car you may even be able to turn a small profit!  However If you do choose to restore this one please keep us posted so we can watch the spectacle of you slowly losing your savings & your marbles at the same time!    just sayin                                                                 Sorry about the discouraging comments but as fellow Riv lovers we only want what's best for you.                                                                                                                                                                    p.s. your trunk trim is there under the rear window. you just need the Buick letters which fill those holes in the lid

[steelman]

I agree with EmTee, the column is early 70’s, as is the bench seat. Look at the seat back height. Notice it is above the bottom of the window level. Almost like an integrated headrest. Again, wasn’t produced until the early 70’s. 
I also have to agree with some others. Buy a better example unless you are really in love with the changes made to this one.

[gungeey]

If that sheet metal is as sound as it appears the switch from a 350 to a BBB would be very doable. The major mods are done.

 

455 column shift, anyone?

[NTX5467]

An interesting car, with an as of yet mysterious history.  One time, back in about 1971, our former college President got a job at the junior college in Vernon.  At the time, he had a '64-era Imperial.  When we visited him, he said that the 413 had "blown up" and his friend at the wrecking yard put a Buick engine in it.  So, away from things, some different things can and have happened to some cars, over the years.  Which is probably why the compete Buick 350 migrated into the engine compartment.

 

Bench seat?  Same thing, possibly.  It could well have been that the prior owner liked the car, but NOT the "stick shift in the floor".  Many people of my mother's generation felt that a "stick shift" meant a "cheap car", which is why she bought a demo 1995 Chrysler New Yorker (with a 50-50 bench seat) rather than a '95 Chrysler LHS (with buckets and console).  My generation would have looked at the console and shifter as "sporty" rather than "cheap", by comparison.  For somebody who grew up when you parked at the curb, opened the curb-side door and slid across the seat, so you didn't have to walk around to the "traffic side" of the car, that console and floor shift would make for a very un-lady-like maneuver . . . so bench seat it was, for them.

 

As to the steering column, probably a serendipitous situation of it being a useable length and mounting flange?

 

I would like to see a Nailhead under the hood, BUT a Buick 350 might even make the car more saleable, to some.  Might just need some  maintenance and tuning to get it running again?

 

To me, I would get it running and cleaned up FIRST.  Plus the other needed mechanical issues on the chassis.  Checking stamp codes on the engine, trans, and rear axle so you know what you have.  If you can find some sort of OEM Delco radio for the car, even an AM, you can send it to a few radio people who can modernly-update it for modern amenities, including high-power amps and FM/Satellite capabilities.

 

All things considered, restore the car AS IT NOW IS . . . unless you want to have ANY inkling of doing a full, OEM-spec restoration on it.  You can make it a great looking car, as it now is, so going farther would possibly not make the car worth more money with a full restoration, I suspect.  Rather, a nice looking car that drives well is worth more to many more people.  Besides, I also highly suspect that FEW people would recognize that "experimental" engine in it at local cruises and such.  IF it "looks factory", many might not notice the valve covers and such.

 

DO first ensure that all of the conversion work is of good quality and not "rigged".  To me, THAT would be a main consideration!

 

Welcome and ENJOY!

NTX5467

 

[XframeFX]

On 3/25/2023 at 6:13 AM, RIVNIK said:

I would spend as little as possible getting it to run better, fix the brakes, clean up the engine bay & interior, basically make any value it may have as a restomod more apparent to a potential buyer

My thoughts exactly since this is not a rusted-out specimen. As the current caretaker, a balancing act not to exceed the value of this Riviera at various stages of the project.

 

It runs and drives now. Best to keep it that way even if you have to sit on an inverted milk crate while interior restoration is under way. I've done exactly that and almost lost control when depressing the accelerator. I fell off that crate shuffling cars in my garage. I had to hang on tight to the steering wheel!

 

Also, a reason to keep it running, a better car always shows up For Sale when you're knee deep in a project. Can't re-gain your investment when you sell a non-running car and move on to that "find".

That non original engine is fine, does it really need to be re-built?

 

23 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

All things considered, restore the car AS IT NOW IS . . . unless you want to have ANY inkling of doing a full, OEM-spec restoration on it.  You can make it a great looking car, as it now is, so going farther would possibly not make the car worth more money with a full restoration, I suspect.  Rather, a nice looking car that drives well is worth more to many more people.  Besides, I also highly suspect that FEW people would recognize that "experimental" engine in it at local cruises and such.  IF it "looks factory", many might not notice the valve covers and such.

1st Generation Riviera's are "A Looker" when out in public. A re-finished exterior although the most costly part of any restoration will generate more "thumbs-up" and comments like "you've got a beautiful car" than any other car of the 60s, I can almost guarantee that!

 

ROA Website - www.rivowners.org "All About The ROA":

The Riviera Owners Association (ROA) is an International nonprofit organization formed in 1984, in the belief that the time had come for this great Buick to receive the attention it deserves. We are dedicated to the preservation, restoration, and promotion of the Buick Riviera. We concentrate on the needs of the Riviera Owner.