great way to waste a bunch of time skill and money, and ruin a good generation one

[Wayne R]

My  thoughts on  the fitting of   the classic  compass,  over the years, i have fitted different

 compass to my Buicks,  mostly  Buick  and  GM,  and   as  mention here   by,

Turbinator ,Emtee, Rivnut, and 1965rivgs,  i agree with  all  about fitting  a  period correct  compass.

For  those  not knowing   much about  ,---Dinsmore--is  the real collector of compasses---dear i say its the Rolls Royce

of them,  would rather say  Duesenburg of compasses,, about 20years ago when i lived CA, i attended many mixed make  shows,

and the most sought after compasses  were for  Chevrolet,  those days  were in the $300  to $500  range , but  today

those Compasses  can be in  and over $1000   mark,  so if you can obtain a really nice  period correct  one for  your Buick

go for it.----example  go to ebay right now take a look at this one.   item no   224782931234---$3000.00.  others there as well.

Sorry i dont know how to paste.   thank you. 

[60FlatTop]

50 years ago I remember being coached by an old timer about the importance of recognizing Model A Ford radiator thread application and horn styles.  I don't remember the details because that really wasn't the memorable part. Some of you might remember Frank Jenkins. He had a Model A cabriolet and a GE refrigerator truck. I will always remember how easy he was to find at Hershey, Blue Field, S row. Easy to relate.

[EmTee]

22 hours ago, RivNut said:

Would you consider rally wheels okay on a 63 or 64 if they could be purchased over the parts counter at your local Buick dealer after having driven the car a few years?

I suppose by my personal 'period correct' definition I'd have to say 'no'.  By 'period correct' I mean accessories available when the car was new.  Since the Buick road wheels didn't show up until '65 they wouldn't be 'period correct' on a '63 or '64.  That said, I would consider installing Buick road wheels on a '63 or '64 to be a 'Day Two' modification.  That would be adding factory or aftermarket accessories to a car that became available after the car was sold new, but was still in use as a daily driver (e.g., less than ten years old).

 

22 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

But what is the definition of "period correct"? From a points judging perspective, the term sounds like a rabbit hole/ can of worms to me. 

See above for my personal definition.  I have a hard time classifying a '63 Riviera that's otherwise stock as 'modified' for the purpose of peer judging (e.g., ROA meets), but I understand that it is not as it would have been new, so for AACA judging I understand the point deduction.  It would be nice to have a 'Day Two' class that would allow for aftermarket and factory accessories that were common when the car was 10 years old or less.

[Wayne R]

Period correct is  correct for the particular year that particular part  was fitted  by Buick.

See my 64 Electra convertible,--the only non correct  item on my car, but i prefer these

on than the original wheel trims, and it now has  a correct  passenger side mirror as well.

[1965rivgs]

13 hours ago, Wayne R said:

Period correct is  correct for the particular year that particular part  was fitted  by Buick.

See my 64 Electra convertible,--the only non correct  item on my car, but i prefer these

on than the original wheel trims, and it now has  a correct  passenger side mirror as well.

  My impression of "period" is more than one model year as in " the '50's", a good example being the Dinsmore compass or perhaps full width exterior windshield sun visors. If an accessory was marketed by Buick for a particular year, as in the '63 only "Star Wars" compass pictured in the Buick Accessory catalog which I scanned and posted, I would describe that accessory as model year correct. That's just my own interpretation of terminology.

Tom Mooney

[dr914]

I certainly can identify with adding factory accessories to ones car.

 

[Turbinator]

Gents, i Will suggest the guys that judged my car did two things. They didn’t whack me as hard as they could for items I knew I came up short and they let me slide on others. Missing AC muffler, missing drier holder, no battery hold down, wrong Fan belts, dirty engine bay by show car standards, just to name a few. I think points deducted for good looking radial bias look tires was, well what it is. One gent asked me if my seat belt buckles work. I said yes as well as the little light in the glove box shining through the OEM crystal.

‘I found some of the guys there intense. One gent said I’ll be up against his such and such Riviera. I quickly advised I’m not up against anyone unless they have their finger in my eye. I quickly qualified my competitive days are over regarding my Riviera. I’ll show my car again and have fun with no intention of winning a thing. If I do win something I’ll practice good manners and accept an award. 
‘The fun is chatting with other gents that feel the same way about their car as I do. The phrase period correct refers to something of a defined era. For instance if a car compass was made in 1962 and yet another model made 1963 by the same manufacturer as the 1962 both the 62 and 63 are period correct in a 62 or 63 car. Now for car judging the compass is right or wrong for the year car. Rallye wheels on a 63 Riviera can be period correct but not stock. At Branson I wanted to enter my 63 Riviera as Modified. Gents asked why modified? I said the wheels I have on the car are not stock. There was a pause. The wheels aren’t stock. Not stock is not stock. 
The better writers of rule books write they mean and mean what they write. My reading comprehension is not bad, but still open for improvement.

[Turbinator]

10 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

  My impression of "period" is more than one model year as in " the '50's", a good example being the Dinsmore compass or perhaps full width exterior windshield sun visors. If an accessory was marketed by Buick for a particular year, as in the '63 only "Star Wars" compass pictured in the Buick Accessory catalog which I scanned and posted, I would describe that accessory as model year correct. That's just my own interpretation of terminology.

Tom Mooney

Tom, is it possible the 63 Star Wars compass be correct for other years going forward to say the later sixties? My memory tells me I saw a post showing the 63 Star Wars compass correct for multiple years. 

[Turbinator]

23 hours ago, Wayne R said:

Period correct is  correct for the particular year that particular part  was fitted  by Buick.

See my 64 Electra convertible,--the only non correct  item on my car, but i prefer these

on than the original wheel trims, and it now has  a correct  passenger side mirror as well.

This car looks good. Period.

[Turbinator]

On 10/30/2022 at 7:51 PM, EmTee said:

have a hard time classifying a '63 Riviera that's otherwise stock as 'modified' for the purpose of peer judging (e.g., ROA meets), b

Knowing the whole event is aimed at fun latitude is given in every direction. My only reason for wanting to enter my 63 as modified is because my wheels were not stock. In the whole scope of the event it made no difference because the awards were determined by peer voting. We do not have a peer voting rule book. That would be fun to write, but I’m not going to volunteer.

[1965rivgs]

12 hours ago, Turbinator said:

Tom, is it possible the 63 Star Wars compass be correct for other years going forward to say the later sixties? My memory tells me I saw a post showing the 63 Star Wars compass correct for multiple years. 

Hi Bob,

  No, I believe the '64 version was the more typical mid '60's style which is cylindrical with a silver band and the Buick trishield. Cadillac's version had the Cadillac crest but was otherwise identical. I don't know about the other GM divisions?

Tom

[Seafoam65]

13 hours ago, Turbinator said:

Knowing the whole event is aimed at fun latitude is given in every direction. My only reason for wanting to enter my 63 as modified is because my wheels were not stock. In the whole scope of the event it made no difference because the awards were determined by peer voting. We do not have a peer voting rule book. That would be fun to write, but I’m not going to volunteer.

I like the way the Pontiac Oakland Club handles classifications in their popular vote show.......The first sentence in the rule book

regarding the stock classes reads "Stock is stock". In POCI if you show up with a car that has wheels that were factory but not available

for that model year, you are put in the semi-modified class. They also have a modified class for cars with lots of mods (more than three) 

Personally I would like to see the ROA have this kind of setup but I don't see it happening any time soon. POCI tries to encourage

club members to restore their cars to the way they left the factory, while still allowing the modified cars to be able to participate

as well. Best of Show at the national POCI meet Popular vote show is always a totally correct stock car. POCI has cars go through a tech inspection to ensure they are placed in the correct class, while ROA let's you decide what class you want to be in, up to a certain point

as long as there aren't tons of mods. POCI does allow period accessories to be added in stock classes, like aftermarket cruise controls,

four way flashers etc., radial tires, and other safety improvements. They also have a Road Warrior class where the cars must be driven

to the meet and everyone gets a participation award. In addition they have a point judged show the day before the Popular vote show,

where the cars are judged on the entire car including the undercarriage and where correct casting numbers and date codes come into play, as well as a Point judged modified show which is like an Autorama format where the cars are judged on fit and finish.

[Seafoam65]

Oh one other thing.......I think there should be a Best of Show Modified award at the ROA meet, being as the

Best of Show winner is always a bone stock correct car. This would encourage more modified cars to come to the

meet. 

[EmTee]

20 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

I think there should be a Best of Show Modified award at the ROA meet...

A 'Gene Winfield' award...?

 

[kegart]

I thought best of show went to the car with the most votes regardless of class.

 

Kevin 

[Seafoam65]

 Nope, there isn't any place on the ballot for Best of Show.......that award is picked by Ray Knott

and a couple of Board members......at least that's my understanding. I asked Ray one time to consider

letting people vote on their favorite Winner's Circle car, i.e a Best of the Best award, which would obviously

result in a much larger Winner's  Circle class every year, because people would have a chance to compete for

a special award in the Winner's Circle class, but I got shot down......I still think it's a great idea.......and I think

there should be a People's Choice award  that all attendees could vote on, regardless of whether they brought

a car to the meet or not......a ballot for this could be included in the registration packet. While I'm dreaming, I'll throw

this idea out there.......POCI has a special award for people who are the original owner of their Pontiacs and that have owned 

the car more than 25 years. Also right now they are considering giving special awards to anyone attending the convention

with their car that has owned it 50 years or more, regardless of whether they are the original owner or not. There

are lots of ways to increase the car count at national convention shows, and awards are the key to unlocking the full attendance potential....for example there was a car show in a small East Texas Town that included a Best of the Best award in addition to Best of Show. To compete in the Best of the Best class you had to have won Best of Show

at a car show with at least 150 cars in attendance. They got the turnout up to almost 400 cars doing this, with cars coming from 100's and 100's of miles away. The Best of the Best award also had a 500.00 cash prize attached to it.

this resulted in a show with some of the most amazing cars I've ever seen.
 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[dr914]

3 hours ago, EmTee said:

A 'Gene Winfield' award...?

 

Let's see if we can ruin the classic roof line on a first generation car!!!

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, dr914 said:

the classic roof line on a first generation car!!!

The first generation was originally a knock off of one of these.

 

I have had one side by side in my garage and the lines are very close. The subtleties are there in the shape and the styling lines. Although the inspiration came from the Continental coupe the saloon sail panels were almost duplicated. Since the Riviera wheelbase id about 10" shorter it was an excellent choice.

 

Not as much an original as perceived but the first Gen was a nice knock off. I'll bet my Croton watch on that.

Edited November 2, 2022 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[RivNut]

This past year in Branson was the first year that I’ve ever seen one car win both best in class and best in show.  

[kegart]

I'm looking forward to Kalamazoo next year. It will be a short drive compared to Branson. 

This will be my 4th ROA that I have attended. The awards are well done but the best reason to go is the people. 

 

Kevin 

 

 

 

 

[dr914]

So I do not think that THIS one has been ruined!!!!

 

https://www.holley.com/blog/post/this_detroit_speed-built_1965_buick_riviera_is_built_to_drop_jaws/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Organic&utm_campaign=Motor+Life+Articles&fbclid=IwAR0B9QNOy5dUcOGYe5rj4kkTWKCid6GeF93pooNvZ2fNvdO23wxwQAG835E

[kegart]

I like the way they did the tail lights. 

 

Kevin 

[Seafoam65]

That is a beautiful car.......interior is gorgeous and love the tail light treatment......just should

have left the Riviera emblems on the front fenders and moved the rear one up to the trunk lid.

Nice job of making the LS engine look like a nailhead. I would like to know how they took a stock wood

wheel and put the thick wood rim on it.

[XframeFX]

7 hours ago, dr914 said:

So I do not think that THIS one has been ruined!

This one is at SEMA right now according to youtube video from the event.

MNO = Money-no-object

[arnulfo de l.a.]

The clamshells are beautiful!

[71GS]

5 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

I would like to know how they took a stock wood

wheel and put the thick wood rim on it.

Seafoam, I have a guy if your interested. He does them by hand and does beautiful work. 

[EmTee]

20 hours ago, kegart said:

I like the way they did the tail lights

I like the tail lights, but I'm not sure about the back end as a whole; something seems 'off'.  Lights are maybe too thin?  Valence looks too dominant?

 

That said, I like it and maybe the rear looks better in person.  I'd definitely drive it!  Power Tour anyone...? 

[dr914]

If I would think about the ultimate look for my dream riviera, it would be a 65 GS with all of the options, but  with 64 tail lights  rear quarter scoops and silver dash fascia

[telriv]

I also think the '65 should have the '63-'64 side scoops. Looks to "Slab" sided without them & nothing to cut down on the sheer mass/length to the eye of the quarter.

That custom I also agree about the rear valance. Too large & looks out of place without matching the dimensions of the whole rear end treatment in general.

Maybe larger taillights as mentioned but it still doesn't address the size of the valance.

I also believe the "Riviera" emblems should be on the fenders. Undecided about the truck lid since it's off to one side to me it looks lopsided. but to each his own.

Also I feel it would accentuate the lines of the car better & break-up the "Slab" sideisness with the wheel opening mouldings & stainless trim following the body lines like original.

I like on my '64 & also '65 where it only says Riviera without Buick shown anywhere.

People ask MANY times "I've never seen a Riviera, who makes it???" 

When I say Buick they are mostly totally surprised & say "I had no clue".

 

Tom T.

Edited November 5, 2022 by telriv (see edit history)

[XframeFX]

RE; Detroit Speed Project

Custom "Likes":

- Re-purposed HVAC and under-dash Controls

- Classic Instruments Gauge pkg

- Steering Wheel

- Seatbelts and Recaro seat skins

- Castings to transform top of cyl. heads for Nailhead style cast aluminum valve covers and galley cover

- Dual Snorkel pancake air filter (hides fuel rail)

- Tailights!

 

Custom "Dislikes":

- Chunky Dashpad

- Cheesy Radio Faceplate with no "BUICK" on the 5 pushbuttons

- Shorty exhaust outlets (should've taken that ribbed aluminum outlet forward for the full length of the rocker panel)

- Wheel well openings (about as nice as a Chevelle). OK, no arch mouldings but do something! Less is not more.

- Slab sides do not accentuate the 1st Gen's voluptuous curves

- Recaro seat controls. Don't look down!

 

[Turbinator]

On 11/3/2022 at 9:32 AM, kegart said:

I'm looking forward to Kalamazoo next year. It will be a short drive compared to Branson. 

This will be my 4th ROA that I have attended. The awards are well done but the best reason to go is the people. 

 

Kevin 

 

 

 

 

Kevin, no doubt your remarks regarding the folks you meet are 100% correct.

Turbinatoref

[kegart]

First one I went to I met a guy named Red Riviera Bob.

 

Kevin 

[Turbinator]

On 10/8/2022 at 10:57 PM, PaulMuzz said:

When I read the start of this thread I was think we were talking about this car:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1963-buick-riviera-23/ Which is just a riviera body on a Cadillac chassis. It was also extended a bit in the front and chopped. I thought it would be cool to convert this to a silver arrow replica given the mods that were done but ripping out that Cadillac interior would be next to impossible. 

Paul, ripping out the interior and putting back to stock impractical, but not impossible. The requirement is you have a lot of money to bring back to stock. The people to do such a job would be in the scene as well. 
I think we’ve seen enough done to cars that anything is possible. For a regular guy like me I have limits to what I will spend on the car. I’ll admit I probably over improved my 63. I like it a lot the way I have my car.

My car was improved, upgraded so the car could take long road trips and make it out and back. Many improvements you can’t see.

[Turbinator]

7 hours ago, kegart said:

First one I went to I met a guy named Red Riviera Bob.

 

Kevin 

Kev, I met a guy out in Kansas that had a super clean White 63 that took me to over to the Walmart to get some items. There are people that know to have friends you have to be a friend.

Then there are people that are all wrapped up themselves and they are

the smallest package in the world.

Thank you for your remarks.

Turbinator

[PaulMuzz]

11 hours ago, Turbinator said:

Paul, ripping out the interior and putting back to stock impractical, but not impossible. The requirement is you have a lot of money to bring back to stock. The people to do such a job would be in the scene as well. 
I think we’ve seen enough done to cars that anything is possible. For a regular guy like me I have limits to what I will spend on the car. I’ll admit I probably over improved my 63. I like it a lot the way I have my car.

My car was improved, upgraded so the car could take long road trips and make it out and back. Many improvements you can’t see.

I agree. It nice to do some upgrades. I’m planning to do a few over time like the trunk release and deluxe interior. Longer term I want to put back the dual quads that the original owner had bought the car with (dealer install). It’s been rewarding so far just doing some smaller items and some maintenance. There was a great article in the Riview of someone putting in a bunch of upgrades to their 64, very cool. 

[Turbinator]

8 hours ago, PaulMuzz said:

I agree. It nice to do some upgrades. I’m planning to do a few over time like the trunk release and deluxe interior. Longer term I want to put back the dual quads that the original owner had bought the car with (dealer install). It’s been rewarding so far just doing some smaller items and some maintenance. There was a great article in the Riview of someone putting in a bunch of upgrades to their 64, very cool. 

Paul, you have it under control. I think common sense would cover most of our own questions. I like analog gauges. I put the 1 1/2” gauges in my ash tray opening. I close the ash tray door and they are out of sight. I hid my coolant overflow tank. No one can tell I have electronic ignition. No one can tell I have starter momentary switch that has to be depressed to complete the circuit to the starter. No one can tell I have a one ton GM truck severe duty fan clutch. I have a chicken head battery cut off switch that is out of sight. I have upgraded spark plug wires and Bosch platinum plugs. Who can see through the engine block  and tell I don’t have AC plugs? I’ve kept all the bling out from under the hood. No sense in putting in a stereo speaker system unless you want to. To get the sound right I think you have to know what you are doing. Paul with technology today you can enough sound in your car to fill a stadium. I’m no mechanic at all, but I am a performing band leader when I feel like working. I know what music is suppose to sound like. I play MP3’s through my AM radio to my 10 ohm OEM size speaker in the back seat. 
When guys start monkeying with the Riviera body they should think “ how am I going to make this design better?” All jokes aside it is the owners car to do what he/she wants to do.

[Chasander]

Bob is your fan clutch noisy. (Roar all the time in hot weather)

[telriv]

Rather have that than an over heating/running hotter than normal engine.

Too much heat CAN do loads of internal damage.

Just my thoughts.

 

Tom T.

[RivNut]

3 hours ago, Chasander said:

Bob is your fan clutch noisy. (Roar all the time in hot weather)

Not Bob here but the fan clutch engages/disengages from the expansion/contraction of a bimetal spring in the fan clutch.  When the ambient temperature of the air around the spring is hot, the clutch engages and the fan engages.  When the fan is engaged, it will “roar.”  It should only engage when the temperature is high enough to cause the spring to expand and engage the clutch.  In cooler weather or when the temperature of the water in the radiator is cool, the fan should be disengaged. When disengaged, the fan should be able to freewheel and not be heard.