great way to waste a bunch of time skill and money, and ruin a good generation one

[dr914]

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-buick-riviera-43/?utm_source=dm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2022-10-07

[Zimm63]

Acquired in 2021?  Maybe not so great a driver?

[Seafoam65]

I love the modified cars, every time somebody does that to a 65, the value of my car goes up some more.

It has gotten to the point that only a few stock ones are left......they are getting harder and harder to find.

[60FlatTop]

If they had done a 400 point restoration an expert would have looked and said "Hrumph. crank windows?". The in-the-know group would have quickly pointed that out. Factory stripped job, hardly worth a glance.

 

How many of the 112,000 have fallen prey to peer pressure modifications. I see it has that much needed double pumper master cylinder. About as much creativity as a country music song.

 

And how many just worn out and scrapped?

[Jim Cannon]

To each their own.

[Jim Cannon]

I've got a better one:

 

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/7537532570.html

 

 

 

[Seafoam65]

T

1 minute ago, Jim Cannon said:

I've got a better one:

 

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/7537532570.html

 

That car is absolutely hideous looking. if i had to drive that around I would put a paper bag over my head so

nobody would know who the owner is.

 

 

 

[arnulfo de l.a.]

3 minutes ago, Jim Cannon said:

I've got a better one:

 

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/7537532570.html

 

That is HORRENDOUS! 

 

 

[Jim Cannon]

The seat upholstery made me laugh out loud! The seats look like BIG LIPS!

 

The interesting part is that this orange car is Fisher Body number 414, a very early production car, built in the first week of September, 1962. I can see a few early features.

 

 

[RivNut]

If “modified” first generation Rivieras tend to make your blood boil, DO NOT look at the 63 - 65 Riviera Group on Facebook.  Especially if you’re prone to having nightmares.

[telriv]

As much as was modified on a '64 Riv. at the Bransom meat after driving a red/stock '63 he was so impressed he was thinking about converting his back to closer to stock.

This included stock brakes, stock suspension, correct shocks/springs, sway bars, steering box etc.

There's a lot to be said about the stock set-up properly modified to accomplish the results most/many may be looking for WITHOUT detracting from it's originality/ride quality.

 

Tom T

[60FlatTop]

The Craigslist one was new when the modifications started. To me that is quite different than the fumbling around I see on more recent cars where the owner or "my mechanic" didn't know how to fix the car. Or followed the flock into improvements that were unfounded on a well maintained and well tuned car.

 

For example how many of these dual master cylinders are pushing to the rear brake cylinders through 50 + year old original lines?

 

The guy who installs disc brakes fearing brake fade from multiple serve stops. I won't ride with him. And how did he decide where to adapt the lines from 1/4" to 3/16". Where the fitting sizes would match?

 

Handling installations of shocks and sway bars leaving 55 year old rubber suspension bushes and body mounts,  Think the body sliding a couple inches across the frame affects handling. Any rubber left in that original rag joint or just the rag.

 

These cars are a pleasure to look at And drive in their original form but so few have actually driven one with all the age related maintenance issues addressed. They seem to fall short but re-engineering is easy. Ask the counter kid at Auto Zone.

 

If I wasn't going out to dinner in half an hour I'd be out in the garage with my back to my unmodified '64 Riviera... working on the '48 Chrysler with the 350 Chevy engine, Camaro subframe with disc brakes, etc., etc.  'cause some cars really do need that stuff and one with the shocks connected between A-arms and two wheel cylinders per corner is right there at the top of the list.

[Turbinator]

I attended the Branson MO ROA meet and had to defend my wish to enter my stock 63 as modified. I had TruSpoke Buick style wire wheels with stainless steel wires and custom made spinner cap assembly. I had to make it clear I wanted enter as modified. After all the car had traveled 1125 miles and was loaded with parts I decided not to enter the car.

Ive just attended the AACA meet in Hershey. The Captain of the Judge Team said the main problem were my Radial bias look tires. I had the stock appearing tires mounted on Buick wheels with my not so shiny wheelcovers. Eight point deduction for having radials that look exactly as the original aside from the 7.10 R 15 marked on the tire. I was delighted one of the Judges knew my Dinsmore Compass was ok.

I had a great time looking at all the great cars. 
I’ve decided your car is right or wrong depending what camp you pitch your tent. I look for pride in ownership of the automobile. I don’t have to like what the owner did or did not do to his car regarding looks. I try to look for the work and craft the gent invested in the car that he likes for his car.

Being positive takes effort. Support the guy for Bustin’ his butt to make the car look and perform how he likes his car. 
As an aged mature person I subscribe to Jesse Winchester’s words “Let the rough side drag let the smooth side show.,”

[Dundee]

I am sure many in our youth including me have been involved in what we thought was harmless modification for performance, looks or for just an excuse to get under the bonnet! (Hood).. Hindsight is sometimes a painful thing but usually for the financial misfortune, you know wish I still had my first car..It wasn’t so $value driven 20 or 30 years ago just having some fun and driving a cool car and that’s all I am looking for now. The previous owner made some changes that for me were more understandable when he made them in the 90’s and I can’t be responsible for reversing all of them but one things for sure I can’t wait to go cruising in what is still a cool classic, regardless of original or not..enjoy the moment!

PS Jim that rear end was hideous but in fear of offending IMO on the 63 the front is way better than the rear but that took it to the next level😳

 

[Matt56]

I've never really understood the reluctance to modify cars.  They're just metal; anything is reversible.  And it's just a car.  Do what pleases you. 

 

For me, keep some quality examples in museums (especially of the desirable models) and the rest can be set up to be driven frequently and to the owner's taste.  And if the taste and what brings enjoyment is pure original, thats great too.

 

Why cant we just say 'not too my taste, but nice work' - be it original or modified.

 

Through a combination of necessity (budget) and expediency (engine laying around) I'm putting a SBC in my '63 Riv.  End goal is a moderate performance tourer.  Aside from being low appearance will be completely stock.

 

That said, the Winfield car (the Craigslist one) has an interesting history assuming the Winfield element is legit.  For me thats an example of 'not to my taste, but cool car'.

 

 

[Seafoam65]

As I stated earlier, I like modified cars because they make the value of my stock car go up.

The argument that the mods can be reversed so anything I do to the car is fine is often used 

as a justification to alleviate any guilt, but the fact of the matter is that no purist is going to bother

with buying a modified car and putting it back to stock.....too much time and expense and trouble

for that to ever happen. I've never heard of anybody doing that and I've been in the hobby for

40 years. It is getting very difficult if not impossible to find a totally stock non Gran Sport nice early Riviera

for sale......like the bald eagle, it is bordering on extinction. That's fine with me because I've got my car, but

if I was looking to buy a correct nice stock one today the search would be very difficult because they are as extinct

as the Do Do bird.One factor in this is that a lot of the stock ones have gone overseas to places like Australia, where

people have a greater appreciation for the totally stock cars versus lowered and air bagged cars. Once the cars go

overseas, odds are they will never return to the states. I wonder if perhaps we can get the stock early Rivieras on the official

U S Government "endangered species list" to protect the few that remain?

                One thing i've always wondered is why remove all the Riviera emblems off the car and fill the

holes where the emblems were.......those are the most beautiful model emblems ever put on a GM car and 

people remove all of them where you can't even tell if it's a Buick if you are not familiar with the cars.....and then there is the removal of the outside locks and door handles so when the electronics fail you can bust out a window

to get into the car.  A similar analogy would be buying the original Mona Lisa and  adding a moustache to the painting.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[RivNut]

My 65 Gran Sport (still under wraps and in a warehouse 75 miles from me) was one of those that someone started to customize, not modify, and got into it and couldn’t complete. That’s why I bought it 6 years ago for $3,000.  Lots of work ahead of me now that I’ve collected the correct pieces to replace those altered for the customization.

[Matt56]

4 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

As I stated earlier, I like modified cars because they make the value of my stock car go up.

The argument that the mods can be reversed so anything I do to the car is fine is often used 

as a justification to alleviate any guilt, but the fact of the matter is that no purist is going to bother

with buying a modified car and putting it back to stock.....too much time and expense and trouble

for that to ever happen. I've never heard of anybody doing that and I've been in the hobby for

40 years. It is getting very difficult if not impossible to find a totally stock non Gran Sport nice early Riviera

for sale......like the bald eagle, it is bordering on extinction. That's fine with me because I've got my car, but

if I was looking to buy a correct nice stock one today the search would be very difficult because they are as extinct

as the Do Do bird.One factor in this is that a lot of the stock ones have gone overseas to places like Australia, where

people have a greater appreciation for the totally stock cars versus lowered and air bagged cars. Once the cars go

overseas, odds are they will never return to the states. I wonder if perhaps we can get the stock early Rivieras on the official

U S Government "endangered species list" to protect the few that remain?

Our different views are what makes our hobby interesting.  Personally, I draw the line at air bags.  If you run it low, drive it low.

 

For the record my '63 is right hand drive having been converted in 1967 upon its arrival down here in Australia.  Dont get me wrong, I'd happily have a nail head in it; just beyond my budget, scarecity of nails down here and I have this SBC I rebuilt last year needing a home.  If you were paying for labour 'though you would never do it, what with oil pan mods and everything else.

 

To be fair the Riviera is a fine car standard and I would never modify it to the extent that I do for a tri five Chevy or Australian muscle cars (which are just horrible in standard form).

 

 

 

[PaulMuzz]

When I read the start of this thread I was think we were talking about this car:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1963-buick-riviera-23/ Which is just a riviera body on a Cadillac chassis. It was also extended a bit in the front and chopped. I thought it would be cool to convert this to a silver arrow replica given the mods that were done but ripping out that Cadillac interior would be next to impossible. 

[Turbinator]

10 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

if I was looking to buy a correct nice stock one today the search would be very difficult because they are as extinct

Seafoam, if you were looking for a 63 I present mine as stock. You’d have to change the hose clamps over to the Corbin style. My tires are American Classic Radial bias look. I thought the judges at Hershey would think I was smart. Actually they marked me 8 points off for having radial tires that looked like bias tires. I won’t change the tires that are safe and better handling than the nylon bias tire. They didn’t find my coolant overflow tank. Nor did he find the momentary switch that completes the circuit for the starter. It was fun to see all the great looking cars.

 

[XframeFX]

22 hours ago, Matt56 said:

I'd happily have a nail head in it; just beyond my budget, scarecity of nails down here and I have this SBC I rebuilt last year needing a home.

I'm not a custom fan either, although I've seen maybe 2 through online images done tastefully.

However, yes, "to each their own". According to what I see, there are still 1st Gen Rivieras popping up here and there needing a complete restoration. Look at that Nebraska Auction place. A handful of '64 & 63 Rivs, some w/o titles and too far gone. The longer a car this old remains unrestored, the sooner it becomes a parts car. So, go ahead, full custom if that's how you're going to save it.

[Silverarrow]

Beats what Barris did / does to cars...

[Turbinator]

On 10/8/2022 at 8:54 PM, RivNut said:

My 65 Gran Sport (still under wraps and in a warehouse 75 miles from me) was one of those that someone started to customize, not modify, and got into it and couldn’t complete. That’s why I bought it 6 years ago for $3,000.  Lots of work ahead of me now that I’ve collected the correct pieces to replace those altered for the customization.

I was thinking if went over 75 miles to get to the 65 you could take a little tent and camp out. Stay a couple three days at a time. That’s what I would do, or stretch out in the back of my pick up. I’d take plenty of blankets or cold weather gear. It gets cold in Kansas closer you get to Winter.

[gungeey]

1 hour ago, Turbinator said:

I was thinking if went over 75 miles to get to the 65 you could take a little tent and camp out. Stay a couple three days at a time. That’s what I would do, or stretch out in the back of my pick up. I’d take plenty of blankets or cold weather gear. It gets cold in Kansas closer you get to Winter.

I guess as long as there is an internet connection it would be doable 🙏

[XframeFX]

3 hours ago, Turbinator said:

I was thinking if went over 75 miles to get to the 65 you could take a little tent and camp out.

What would "The Woman" say?😨

 

Actually, need one of these, wish there was such a thing in Canada:

https://garagesoftexas.com/locations/

https://www.garageultimate.com/

https://garagesoftheamericas.com/

 

 

[RivNut]

3 hours ago, Turbinator said:

I was thinking if went over 75 miles to get to the 65 you could take a little tent and camp out. Stay a couple three days at a time. That’s what I would do, or stretch out in the back of my pick up. I’d take plenty of blankets or cold weather gear. It gets cold in Kansas closer you get to Winter.

A friend of mine owns the warehouse.  His office has a comfortable couch.  The bigger problem is moving the tool cabinets.  But before I'd do that I'd want to keep piece in the household and work on the 64 that currently occupies 2 of the 3 bays in the garage.  

[dr914]

On 10/7/2022 at 12:24 PM, Jim Cannon said:

I've got a better one:

 

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/7537532570.html

 

 

 

Thanks for abusing my eyes Jim!!!!!  Unbelievable

[Turbinator]

On 10/10/2022 at 12:52 PM, RivNut said:

A friend of mine owns the warehouse.  His office has a comfortable couch.  The bigger problem is moving the tool cabinets.  But before I'd do that I'd want to keep piece in the household and work on the 64 that currently occupies 2 of the 3 bays in the garage.  

Ed, you need an extra hand? I can come up and pitch a tent in the driveway. I can hand you the tools.

turbinator

[Turbinator]

F

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, Turbinator said:

Ed, you need an extra hand? I can come up and pitch a tent in the driveway. I can hand you the tools.

turbinator

I appreciate that.  My bigger problem is that my physical prowess is not what it needs to be.  Take Sunday for instance. Linda and I were cleaning up one of the cars.  She had the shop vac and needed a little more of the extension cord.  She pulled on it as I stepped over it. Face plant on the driveway.  Cuts, scrapes and bruises on my face and hands and what feels like a whip lash.  Broke my glasses.  The worst part was how long it took me to get to my feet.  Still feel the bruise in my hand.  Morale of the story: I’m not as young and nimble as I need to be. 

[telriv]

None of us are.

 

Tom T.

[gungeey]

I just bought a project car from a nice 75 YO gentleman that decided he couldn't keep up... who else is ready to pack it in? 🤲

 

[RivNut]

[dr914]

try to find a good mechanic these days!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[60FlatTop]

17 hours ago, RivNut said:

Morale of the story

Now that's Freudian!

[RivNut]

2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Now that's Freudian!

I am going to blame that one on predictive text, autocorrect, or whatever it is that causes that.

[my first riv]

I think many on here forget that the point of modifying a car body isn't always for mass consumption and is sometimes done to add shock value.

Also the complete lack of any semblance of factory replacement sheet metal for these cars makes them prime targets for customization.

Personally for me, anything that keeps people interested in car culture is fine with me, good, bad or indifferent.

If your car is bone stock factory down to the last hidden nut, bolt and screw, cool.

If you decided to modify your car to your tastes, cool.

Too many negative people on this forum who are so dyed in the wool factory purists that unless you have to be here to hunt for an unubtanium part it turns other folks away.

If a custom car isn't your taste, that's fine.

I think another custom car adding or detracting value to your car is highly questionable and subject to personal conjecture and very contingent on the actual classic car market at the time of the sale.

This is a Riviera forum and anything Riv should be fully accepted here otherwise what's the point?

You can cheer or jeer a build all you want but when it comes to the brass tacks of it, it isn't coming out of your wallet and isn't your car.

The great thing about car culture is that there is no right and wrong when it comes to customization and the sky and skill level is the only limitations.

Personally I think that purely stock cars are boring and emblems on a car, any car look just plain out of sorts and detracts from a clean body, they interrupt clean panels and sometimes clean body lines.

I have removed every emblem off every car I owned and have ever done any kind of body work on and all the cheap plastic emblems end up stuck to my tool box or in the trash.

I know what vehicle it is and don't need a plastic or metal tag on it, and if I'm curious I'll just ask the owner and get to open up a friendly dialog with the owner if I'm unsure.

I'd also like to note that if your car at any point has anything other than a stock factory paint job, your car has been customized with plastic filler to remove dents, dings and factory stamping defects without you even fully realizing it. It may be factory in appearance but is not factory correct any longer. If your car has anything other then factory correct lacquer paint in the proper thickness, guess what, also custom now. You may call it a restoration but it is in fact now a custom done car. any restoration is customizing including fresh chroming of factory original parts. The act of chroming removes any factory chrome and defects are fixed and filled with copper and then chromed and polished. That's not factory anymore. If you have anything on your car that did not come exactly that way from the factory it is now customized regardless if it was for safety reasons or not.

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by my first riv
added more context (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

There is absolutely no question that the value of my car goes up every time an original one

is customized....thanks and keep it up, perhaps my car will hit $100,000 when it's the last one on earth

to be left stock.....I can't wait!  The value of something is directly related to how rare it is , simple as that.

It's why 71 hemi Cuda convertibles that sold new for 4,000 dollars fetch 1.5 million dollars.  

[Wayne R]

Thought i would give my perspective on this topic,, mainly because i have owned about 12 different  make models of classic cars from 

my first restoration a 39 Buick special sedan in New Zealand back in 1979.

It really all depends on  the classic   Make , year, model,  and value.

Some i will list.

11 Buicks  1939--1989. / 5 Porsche 911  1969--1984/  3 Jaguar 1963---1966/ 5 Mercedes 1963---1978/ 4 Alfa Romeo 1969---1974

3 Cadillac 1976---1979/  The others   are  alot of european  and Australian    NZ   classics i wont mention.

With high end Mercedes  ,Porsche  and other classics   what is happening   is  Original  factory stock  all ways wins out.

Here is a example i experienced  back  about 6 years  ago  at  Scottsdale David Gooding president of Santa  Monica  auction Conpany bearing his name,--quoted   how ideas are changing about what a classic car should look like ,he gave an example 2 virtually identical 1956 Mercedes Gullwing coupes, both black, red  interiors which were offered at his auction,--one was a perfectly restored 100point car, ran superbly,

the other untouched dirty, torn seats, sagging head liner, etc,--the untouched car sold  for just under $1,900,000, nearly$500,000 more than the perfectly restored example.

The same is happening with early Porsche 911---1967  to 1976--if restored to non stock factory  can loose  thousands of dollars.

I think in about 10 years  especially  with Buick this will be the same more so than now,  as the older they become,

values will rise,---older is always better.-----Other American  classics , Chevrolet, especially   can get away  with it a little as  non  factory

because it has thousands of  followers  for there different models, and they started  building non stock  alot earlyer  than most.

photos of  3 Buicks, 39 first restoration,65  best Buick i owned and current Buick probably last 64 Electra  convertible.

[my first riv]

13 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

There is absolutely no question that the value of my car goes up every time an original one

is customized....thanks and keep it up, perhaps my car will hit $100,000 when it's the last one on earth

to be left stock.....I can't wait!  The value of something is directly related to how rare it is , simple as that.

It's why 71 hemi Cuda convertibles that sold new for 4,000 dollars fetch 1.5 million dollars.  

Again, personal opinion on value based of suggested rarity as well as the current health of the collector car market at the time of the sale. Inflation could get you there but I wouldn't hold your breath.

You can't compare a 65 Riviera to a 71 hemi cuda convertible as a way to justify that sentiment. Cudas have a proven race history alone and add the rare convertible top option and then the legendary Hemi on top of that and that's why that car is worth so much and also why it would be worth restoring.  Rarity does not increase value unless there is a driven demand for that rare item. It also would need the right mix of factory equipment, proven traceable provenance and the right historical milestones such as celebrity ownership or factory custom etc. Most factory cars will not get there, Rivieras aren't that rare compared to a hemi cuda convertible and aren't nearly as desirable either and that's why you can still find good examples for sale at good prices almost monthly on any number of websites.