The Porter & FRP Automobile

[Terry Harper]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

it will probably show up on ebay labeled "other makes" with a seller that doesn't have a clue as to what it is.

Or "Ratrod"

 

The FRP connection is confusing. I have not found any primary evidence that American & British bought out FRP or Findlay Robertson Porters direct involvement with American & British other than that "designed by..." in the ad. There is problably something out there but .... it will take some deeper digging. Other than that ad and the marked similarity in the engine design the only verified direct connection (found to date) is Robert B. Porter who worked with both firms. With that I can understand the claim that it was designed by "Findlay Robertson Porter" if Robert B brought the FRP design with him and simply warmed it over which would make sense. Then again the end of the Findlay Robertson Porter Company isn't really documented either.

 

I agree with Joe's earlier assesment. Like many firms, and given American & Britsh's core business, I would not doubt that they had signed onto some very sizable and lucritive war contracts only to have them canceled when the war ended only a few months later. I imagine they had contracts to provide quite a few marine engines as well as munitions as part of the war effort. Thus leaving them with a heavy investment in ramped-up production capabilites and a stock pile of tooling and materials purchased at inflated war prices. It was a formula that doomed many a firm during that period. The Porter car and the Bear tractor may have been an attempt to utilize some excess production capability and balance the ledger a bit.

 

EDIT:

OK.. DUH! Palm slap! how can I be so stupid! Robert B. Porter was Findlay's son. There it is! Thus of course he took all the patents and design to A&B.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

As had happened at the end of the Civil War...the sudden cancellation of war contracts finished Sharps and Spencer and very nearly finished Remington (which was only saved by the production of the Rolling Block military rifle for other countries). Some companies, like S&W and Winchester survived largely because they had very little government work and others, like Colt, made steam engines and printing presses to stay alive. Somewhere at my mother's old house we have her pair of Winchester ice skates. Curiously, Winchester signed a contract to manufacture Hotchkiss cars although there is no evidence they ever did.  It happened again at the end of WWI. When WWII production ramped up the companies were not going to have that happen again, hence the "cost plus" contracts with the government purchasing and supplying the machines. The manufacturing companies contributed their management expertise but minimized their capital outlay. Companies like Studebaker supplied an enormous number of trucks for Russia under lend/lease. It probably added ten years to their life and provided them with enough cash to continue after the war.

Edited December 28, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

I feel like I am going through all this only to have someone say "all that is already known. Here, read this"

[John Bloom]

11 minutes ago, Terry Harper said:

I feel like I am going through all this only to have someone say "all that is already known. Here, read this"

Keep it coming Terry.  I am enjoying it and I am certain I speak for others. 

[Walt G]

This will be brief as I do not choose to enhance /share information under this particular club's title  BUT not to let some of you down , this is from the 1918 NY souvenir program for the custom body salon held in the Grand Ballroom of the Hotel Commodore Nov. 17th to the 22nd. The program I have also has a lot more detailed information as to models/body styles etc. and interestingly this particular program was used by automotive author John J. Ide. In his own hand/notes in the margin on many of the cars on display at the salon he gives his opinion of the cars, what he saw when they were new and favored or disfavored. Ide was quite a fellow and deserves a small story of his own. He used to travel to the salons/shows in Europe as well on the great steam ocean liners of the era as well as zeppelins - I have the towel out of the Graff Zeppelin that he took as a souvenir! It is hanging in my library framed. Ide's collection of paperwork was saved by a relative here on long island and decades ago both Austin Clark and I managed to get that collection of paperwork and divided it between us. Crazy stuff. Ide bought a Hispano-Suiza (Kellner bodied limousine) new as well as a 1934 Lincoln conv sedan (perhaps Dietrich body) and he toured Europe (mainly France) in them too.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Walt G (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Fantastic.....

 

it shows effort on the part of the company, which I didn’t expect. That Walt has this item is very impressive....... Walt......my car may break down if front of your house for a week or two........I need some legitimate reason to knock on your door and sleep on the floor in your library! Best, Ed.

[Walt G]

Ed

The page opposite this ad is a text advertisement and notes that "models" which they mean are body styles - 6 different ( no 2 passenger cars, most were 7 passenger)  It mentions it was designed by Finley Robertson Porter, and John J. Ide the automotive journalist I mention in his notes penned to the margin noting his feelings about some of the cars says" Resembles old T head Mercer" among other things - so he wasn't aware of FRP as the designer of the T head Mercer type 35!!  My collection is very focused on the WWI to WWII era both here and in Europe. I do have some great stuff before and after that time period. I like the odd ball makes - cars and commercial vehicles , larger chassis cars ,

 

Fleetwood coach builder in their advertisement in the same salon catalog notes they built bodies for "Packard and Porter".

Unless you have the material to look at and know where to look ( that the reference material even exists) a lot of the "connect the dots" to get the overall accurate picture/history of what really went on can't be told.

I am happy to be able to share this - prefer the print media - I get weary of looking at a screen , and everything I look stuff up in is the original print media. This is a whole story that belongs in a club magazine.

I was pleased to have the Editor of the Society of Automotive Historians Journal Ruben Valdes and his son here for a visit on their way back home immediately after the Greenwich concours, he told me later that the 4 hours of intense conversation about automotive history we had then seemed like 15 minutes . It did for me too!

 

Walt

Edited December 29, 2021 by Walt G (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Ruben is a good friend, and lives less than two miles from me, so we see each other often. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Walt G]

OK more Porter car stuff "of the era" thanks to my great long time friend Jim Pearsall of N.J.

Jim tells me these photos were given to him / came from a fellow he knew named Clarence Ike who owned the Porter cabriolet shown.

Clarence Ike was from Woodmere, NY on long island in what is known as the 5 towns area.  The photos were taken in 1926 and

the car was  about a decade old when they had it. At the time they paid $200 or $300 for it.  They also had a Porter touring car (!!!)

but it lacked a top and there are no photos of that vehicle.

SO Jim Pearsall and I are pleased to be able to share with you - my sincere thanks to Jim for making me aware of these again, he

showed them to me 40 years ago and I just couldn't forget that any photos of the cars existed.

[prewarnut]

I don't know if collapable landaulet would be an accurate term but this is interesting as usually the center section of those remains standing which to today's eyes seems a bit odd. Here a conversion to touring occurs. In profile it is quite interesting but with top down from front 1/4 view it might possibly look a little "fussy". Thanks!

[Walt G]

Nomenclature for assorted body styles in the pre war era varied over a number of years. Club sedan, sport sedan, town sedan, close coupled sedan . It depended upon the car manufacturer as well . Yes, that wad of top in the folded position would have been interesting to see from a 3/4 rear view and I am sure the driver had absolutely no rear vision of what was going on behind him at all.

[alsancle]

Great Photos Walt!!!!

[Walt G]

1 minute ago, alsancle said:

Great Photos Walt!!!!

All credit should go to Jim Pearsall, he is the one they came from , I just try to "connect the dots" so to speak and get the assorted material all together in one place.  It is what story tellers do 🙂

[Gunsmoke]

Enjoyed reading every word in this topic, from the opening query, thru the sceptics and doubters (not naming any names), and finally the real experts (special thanks to Walt G). Being such an apparently fine automobile, I'll be surprised if one does not survive in obscurity somewhere.

[edinmass]

Fun topic..........still no engine photos. Bummer. That said.......maybe 35 cars..........so I wouldn’t consider them anything but a footnote in history. The depression of 1920-1921 means it never had a chance. At the numbers posted..........you could have anything you wanted from an established company like Pierce, Packard, ect........would be great fun to look at one. Sadly, it’s very unlikely that any survive. I would refer to a Porter as a “back alley shop” to quote Ray Dietrich. A few people dreaming of a car company post WWI, when the true special cars were already gone.........and the few big boys were still in the game for the next fifteen years. 

[prewarnut]

Walt, Any context on where the photo was shot? For the most expensive car in America I could imagine it would patrol Madison Ave, Park Ave, Upper 5th Ave, etc. Perhaps it was driven out east to a summer home but this doesn't look like Oyster Bay, Water Mill, Southampton, etc. Perhaps sent to pick up the gardner? We may never know...

[JV Puleo]

The owner only paid two or three hundred dollars for it by the time the photos were taken so it's another example of how quickly expensive cars depreciated. Even then, they paid almost as much for it as a new Ford would have cost.

[8E45E]

11 hours ago, prewarnut said:

I don't know if collapable landaulet would be an accurate term but this is interesting as usually the center section of those remains standing which to today's eyes seems a bit odd. Here a conversion to touring occurs. In profile it is quite interesting but with top down from front 1/4 view it might possibly look a little "fussy". Thanks!

Given the rarity of the Porter automobile, I'll bet that Full Collapsible Landaulet in the Jim Pearsall/Walt G. supplied photo and the car shown in the second photo in the first post of this thread is the exact same car.

 

Craig

Edited January 10, 2022 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

29 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

The owner only paid two or three hundred dollars for it by the time the photos were taken so it's another example of how quickly expensive cars depreciated. Even then, they paid almost as much for it as a new Ford would have cost.

...I realize the quick depreciation in the day but do we know this was purchased used? I may have missed something in the thread discussion though. I can't make out the year on the plate...it could be 1925 which is contemporaneous and the car in the background could be too....

[TAKerry]

12 hours ago, Walt G said:

OK more Porter car stuff "of the era" thanks to my great long time friend Jim Pearsall of N.J.

Jim tells me these photos were given to him / came from a fellow he knew named Clarence Ike who owned the Porter cabriolet shown.

Clarence Ike was from Woodmere, NY on long island in what is known as the 5 towns area.  The photos were taken in 1926 and

the car was  about a decade old when they had it. At the time they paid $200 or $300 for it.  They also had a Porter touring car (!!!)

but it lacked a top and there are no photos of that vehicle.

SO Jim Pearsall and I are pleased to be able to share with you - my sincere thanks to Jim for making me aware of these again, he

showed them to me 40 years ago and I just couldn't forget that any photos of the cars existed.

Info on the pics is in this thread.

[TAKerry]

I feel a bit ashamed of myself. When I first read the headline my mind went directly to 'My Mother the Car', often listed as THE worst television show ever! 

However after reading through the thread a quite impressive and obscure automobile has come to light. Thanks to AJ for bringing this up and Walt for his endless amount of knowledge.

[Walt G]

Car was bought used in 1925 or 1926; photo was taken in 1926. I will see if I can find the location, but even in 1926 long island was still rural close to the boroughs of NY City . This was taken in Nassau County , so the borough of Queens County ( part of NY City) would be at the edge .  Car in the back ground is a Buick but from the late teens.  I agree with Joe P. it shows how quickly cars depreciated - especially brands that were even obscure when new.

I am so happy to share this, cause all of you to think!  I know it was the first time I saw actual photos of a Porter, and as mentioned the fellow also had a touring car we have no photos of.

As mentioned as I do research for my stories I am constantly coming across stuff that hasn't been viewed probably since it was new, this goes for European cars as well as those built in the USA. 

[58L-Y8]

Walt:

Thanks for posting the proof that Porters did build at least a few cars.  Otherwise, we might have to regard the Porter as an automotive griffin.  Here is perhaps a better look at these rare images.

Steve

[Pete O]

Wasn't "My Mother the Car"  a Porter?

[Walt G]

Yes, the tv show prop car was named a Porter - no connection to the real deal.

[58L-Y8]

Added only for completion of the peripheral reference, in no wise related to the original subject.

[Graham Man]

 

1915 FRP

• Owner: Seal Cove Auto Museum
• Manufacturer: Finley Robertson Porter Company (Port Jefferson, New York, 1914-1918)
• Model: 45 Touring, Chassis #5
• Cost New: $8000
• Number produced: 9
• Engine: Single overhead camshaft, 16 valve, inline four cylinder water-cooled. 454 cubic inch displacement
• Horsepower: 170
• Transmission: Four speed selective sliding
• Brakes: Mechanical on rear wheels
• Suspension: Semi-elliptic leaf springs
• Provenance: #5 of only nine built, and the only one known to have survived.
• Additional info: Advertised as “America's Foremost Pleasure Car,” the F.R.P. was also one of America’s most expensive and most limited edition cars. With a top-speed of 80-plus M.P.H., this very rare car was designed by Finley R. Porter, creator of the T-head Mercer Raceabout. This may be the very first production car utilizing a 4 valve per cylinder layout.

https://www.sealcoveautomuseum.org/collection-test/1915-frp/

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Graham Man (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Thanks Graham Man ! That's quite a car. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Graham Man]

The Seal Cove Auto Museum looks like a great place to visit, it is now on my list. 

 

1414 Tremont Road
Seal Cove, Maine 04674

 

https://www.sealcoveautomuseum.org/

[Terry Harper]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Thanks Graham Man ! That's quite a car. 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Man said:

The Seal Cove Auto Museum looks like a great place to visit, it is now on my list. 

 

1414 Tremont Road
Seal Cove, Maine 04674

 

https://www.sealcoveautomuseum.org/

Yes, the Seal Cove museum is worth the visit! The FRP is very impressive in person! They also do an excellent job with the interpretive displays. A recent theme was Women's suffrage which they worked through many of the displays. It was excellent and very well done. And of course while your there, motoring around Acadia National park and other parts of the island are is a very worthwhile endeavour.

 

[8E45E]

2 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

An "authentic model" of a totally non-authentic car!

 

Back in ca.1971 or '72 when I wanted to confirm a Porter automobile actually existed, finding information on it proved extremely difficult.  About the only place I found anything at the time was at the main downtown public library which had a decent sized '629.5' section.  If I remember right, it was perhaps in one of the G.N. Georgano volumes where I found a short paragraph on the Porter; no photos or in-depth specifications, just a mention of the years it was made and the size of it.  That was when I concluded it had absolutely no relation to the made-up Porter in the TV sitcom which portrayed it as a newer mass-produced low price car along the lines of a Whippet where the real deal was twice the size for a more exclusive clientele and produced 8-10 years earlier.

 

As I found in later years, information on the genuine Porter has always remained vague, with no mention of it in subsequent issues Special Interest Autos, Car Classics, et al.    And information still remains sketchy on it to this day, even in the internet age.  So thanks everyone for bringing Porter up to the forefront.

 

Craig

[Graham Man]

We are most likely in the "Golden Age" to retrieve this information.  We have the perfect storm, people with the knowledge, people with the pictures, people with the time, and people who can take that knowledge and assemble it into a somewhat complete story.  The record will be the internet, until there is so much information on the internet it will be useless, because you will not be able to find it.... getting close now.

[Walt G]

7 minutes ago, Graham Man said:

people who can take that knowledge and assemble it into a somewhat complete story

This is also a problem - internet knowledge is just so tempting, as close as a click of a button. No effort at all. BUT much of that knowledge is based on research done in the 1950s-60s. This may be accurate but needs to be checked as new information has been discovered since to confirm or perhaps change what has been done. I never totally reply on what has been done, always have to check to be sure. Not a total research project, but enough to make me comfortable what I have read was not "assumed" to be the real story. A lot of people assumed a lot of things then wrote what they wanted. These forums are great, can confirm or bring to light small details that can really make a difference, give a whole perspective of what actually happened. Fiction becomes fact if repeated long enough and that unfortunately is what has happened and will happen without due diligence.

All this may sound like I am a teacher lecturing to students and shaking my finger while doing so. Yes, I was a teacher but taught art and usually my finger(s) were full of paint,glue etc so I did not shake it as it would have splattered some of the kids I taught. ( they would have laughed and thought it fun, their parents not so much 🙄)  But I have also done research on local area history, attended conferences on that state wide and there was always the on going comment - check your facts.  It is not "busy" work just rewarding to know you have seen or provided the right story.  Trying to have access to the "right" material is also a huge factor; I had for decades access to one of the greatest private automotive libraries in the USA ( world?) that was the collection of Henry Austin Clark Jr.  At the time I thought - there will be a day when that will not be possible, so you better build your own collection, which I was able to do with a lot of help , that started 50 years ago , is still going on . I still would rather hold a century old plus catalog, brochure, newspaper, periodical in my hands then stare at a screen - yes I am "Old school" ( old fashioned, old fuddy duddy) .

I have not had the opportunity to see all the automotive libraries but the ones I have seen or know whose collections wound up in - well the information is out there : Henry Ford Museum ( Austin Clark's library is there), Revs Institute ( collection of Peter Richley of England is there) The automotive library at the National Motor Museum Beaulieu in England, AACA library ( I was very familiar with the automotive collection they got from the Philadelphia library as two of the Directors of the Philadelphia library were friends- particularly Lew Helverson who visited me here at my house for SAH chapter meetings) . The curators  of the Harrah collection library and I exchanged information for many years  - Mike Moore, Ralph Dunwoodie etc.

[Terry Harper]

11 minutes ago, Walt G said:

A lot of people assumed a lot of things then wrote what they wanted. These forums are great, can confirm or bring to light small details that can really make a difference, give a whole perspective of what actually happened. Fiction becomes fact if repeated long enough and that unfortunately is what has happened and will happen without due diligence.

Walt,

I agree totally. During this discussion I tried to use only period resources - trade journals etc. and provide references. if there was a point in question I tried to preface it with cautions such as "allegedly" or "its claimed" etc. My preference is to use primary source material but even that can become an issue when it involves interpretation.

 

Your comment "Fiction becomes fact if repeated long enough" is very, very true. Here is what I call a source matrix I developed to illustrate the origin's of just such a folktale now unfortunately accepted as fact. You can see that each succeeding author drew off of proceeding works which all go back to one source which was the first instance of the "folklore". Interestingly one author quoted and referenced a primary source which actually contradicted the "folklore" but they still passed on the "folklore" with no modification or question.

 

All good fun right?

 

[Walt G]

Terry, THANK YOU. It can be so frustrating to see this happen. Sometimes it is understandable - as I stated you need the "real deal" to look at. Primary source material is not always easy to see ,but  many people think it is to much work to attempt to use. Your last line - no, but we have to put up with it and argue to point with those who swallow the wrong information and then wonder why we are the one that get upset when it is thrown back at us "with authority".  I will date myself but I used to refer to this as the "cracker jack box history" or "bubble gum wrapper history" - read it on the label of the wrapper in that and it had to be true. Ok I will stop now as someone will complain I am being a bit nasty .🤐

[jrbartlett]

I remember reading somewhere, maybe in the 1960s, a few sentences on Porter/FRP, indicating that the engines were very powerful but their vibrations were terrible; they vibrated everything loose on the bodies, requiring constant tightening of nuts & bolts, etc. I've been in the hobby since the early 1960s, so what I saw could have been written that long ago. I, my brother and one friend were teenagers growing up together in the hobby, and we knew about the big exotic cars from back in the day -- Locomobile, McFarland, Cunningham, Simplex, etc., and we also knew about the Porter/FRP from voracious reading of car magazines. Never saw many of those cars down here in Texas, but did read about them and sometimes saw photos.     

[JV Puleo]

As Walt knows, we are in absolute agreement on this subject but I though I'd add this tidbit from one of my customer/friends many years ago. Alex Askenov was Kuban Cossack...a veteran of the Russian Civil War. Needless to say, he didn't have any use for Bolsheviks...In a reference to Stalinist history he once used an old Russian proverb..."tell a lie 100 times and it becomes the truth."

[JV Puleo]

42 minutes ago, Walt G said:

... I used to refer to this as the "cracker jack box history" or "bubble gum wrapper history" - read it on the label of the wrapper in that and it had to be true. 🤐

I just call it "pop history". To those of us who actually take the subject seriously, it's an almost endless frustration.

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, Walt G said:

This is also a problem - internet knowledge is just so tempting, as close as a click of a button. No effort at all. BUT much of that knowledge is based on research done in the 1950s-60s. This may be accurate but needs to be checked as new information has been discovered since to confirm or perhaps change what has been done.

I am finding that when I go back and re-read good, respected vintage car magazines from 30+ years ago.  Not so much 'inaccurate', but the article ends incomplete over the intervening years.  Some numbers do succumb to inaccuracy because of newly documented discoveries since the time the article was written.

 

Craig

[edinmass]

I still don’t believe the 140 horsepower rating on the engine. I wouldn’t accept 120 either. I’m thinking much more in the 80 hp range...........