The Porter & FRP Automobile

[West Peterson]

I cleaned this up to keep the focus on Porter.

[58L-Y8]

Reading the article, the recollections related by the Porter passenger sounds as if the engine vibrated terribly at lower speeds.  Wonder what the cause was, unbalanced? single plane crankshaft? Or?

[Terry Harper]

31 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Reading the article, the recollections related by the Porter passenger sounds as if the engine vibrated terribly at lower speeds.  Wonder what the cause was, unbalanced? single plane crankshaft? Or?

Since the Porter used the same engine as the FRP I wonder if anyone at the Seal Cove Museum could provide any insight?

[George K]

Mucking around online on a different search. This showed up. Don’t think it’s been posted.

[edinmass]

George........well,done! 👍👍👍

[LI_BENTLEY]

Point of historical information, the FRP car was built in a factory that did not have electricity.

[JV Puleo]

I'm curious as to how you know that? I'm not saying it's impossible but by 1914 I would imagine that most factories had electric lighting. If nothing else, the fire insurance companies would have insisted on it because of the danger posed by gas lights. Also, there are electrically driven machine tools at least this early although many used DC motors. They are almost never found intact since they were working machines and virtually all were converted to AC motors. That said, the huge 3hp, 3 phase "squirrel cage" motor that powers my drill press is about that old.

[John Bloom]

Jumping back onto this thread because of a bizarre encounter I had this week.  Apologies to AJ since this thread is about the Porter, but this is tangent to it and mentioned several times in the thread.

 

I'm a dentist.  My partner and I have a fairly large practice so it can be a bit hectic some days with patients coming and going in our treatment rooms as well as the Hygienists rooms which are also having patients come and go.  Great staff, but in a practice like ours, there are lots of "car guys" or just mechanical type guys coming and going.  The women in my office roll their eyes when one of them is in my chair because they know...."great, they'll talk cars the whole time and then we'll be running behind".  I consider myself guilty of that charge.  Let me also say that I'd never talk openly about a patient of mine for Privacy/HIPPA reasons, but this patient told me to tell the story, with that behind us.....

 

I had a patient in my chair that I left for a few minutes to check my patient Ken Bowdish in one of our hygienists chairs.  retired, second generation of a machine design business owned by his father and then him.  Great guy, very bright, builds airplanes in retirement....  They did a lot of machine and design for Pratt Whitney engines, all kinds of stuff.  It is always good to talk to Ken.  In my 5 minutes in the room with him this week at his appointment, I was getting ready to walk away and he says "how is your Packard doing"....so we stopped and talked cars for a few minutes and then he tells me a story about when he was a kid, climbing around on a car his dad had.  He said, "you probably have never heard of it, it was an FRP".  I told him that I had heard of it because of a thread I'd read on the AACA forum.  He said, there are only 2 or 3 of them, my dad sold his to Harrah's in the 70's.  I told him I'd reach out to him to hear more of the story and left to go back to my patient.  

 

I sat with him yesterday and visited about his dad's car.  He has lots of pictures at home of it and I asked him to show them to me.  

 

He had two FRP's that he bought from the original owner.  He pain 144 dollars for one and mentions that he "caddied, mowed lawns and borrowed from his girlfriend to get that car" (he later married that girl and that is Ken's mom.  Ken says the FRP's were a part of his childhood.  He crawled around on them as a little kid and remembers in the 70's when Harrahs came with a truck and took one away.  

  

There is a whole lot more to this story and I'll jump back in later to add some more.  Ken has photos.  One he showed me with his mom and dad standing by what he says was one of the two FRP's his dad owned.  I think that the one that was sold to Harrah's was restored and is the one at the Seal Cove auto museum.  Not sure about that.  The other one, I don't know the status of it.  The car with his parents standing in front of it looks newer to me than anything from 1915.  

 

fun day at the office...I had never heard of Porter or FRP until AJ started this thread....and I have a patient who lived with them for 35 years.  

 

 

 

 

[edinmass]

John....any early photos of the family's FRP's would be great to copy and post here............it's going to be the only important modern information on the cars........

[TAKerry]

Fantastic story John, Thanks for sharing.

[alsancle]

Awesome JOHN!

[TAKerry]

On the lighter side, wouldnt it be cool to have a Porter in your collection nestled beside a Cole?

(Sorry, couldnt resist)

[Walt G]

Wonderful! first person information . thank you.

Walt

[John Bloom]

From the Nevada State Journal January 1976.

 

 

There’s a whole bunch more to the story, and Ken has lots of memories and information, and he says he has a lot of pictures too. He apologized to me though because he said in many of the pictures the focus was of the people and the car is in the background. I’m gonna circle back to him and have him start gathering up all related papers and photos and any memorabilia that may have been left in the family to see if I can get pictures.

[Graham Man]

 

https://www.sealcoveautomuseum.org/collection-test/1915-frp/

 

 

[George K]

A couple of Porter’s I bumped into doing some other research.

[George K]

Info from a genealogy site 

[John Bloom]

George, that is interesting.  So the timeline is:

-worked as engineer for Mercer till 1915

-left and built the FRP (conflicting numbers about total car production but it seems consistent that it was 5-10 total)

-Left and served as chief engineer in  the Army at Dayton Ohio during WW1 and then returned in 1919 and the remnants of the FRP were sold and that new entity became the Porter.

 

Total known surviving FRP's is one?

 

Total known surviving Porters is???

 

[edinmass]

I wonder where the spare cut up chassis and engine went………I could see the chassis going to scrap, but not the engine. Any engine of that era of size and complexity would usually have founds its way onto a chassis by 1960. The early brass guys would have been fighting oven a power plant like that. Has anyone run the extra motor down?

[John Bloom]

I was reading somewhere yesterday that the buyer of the first three FRP's was a guy in Wisconsin which would make sense with my patient Ken's dad "buying two FRP's from the original owner".  Harvard is just 20 miles south of the Wisconsin/Illinois line. 

 

I will try and schedule a breakfast with Ken and bring my laptop to show him this thread and ask him to gather up all his pictures and paperwork.  I wonder if he knows the story/location of that second chassis and engine/drivetrain his dad bought.  These guys are mechanical engine guys.  They surely had a deep appreciation for what this engine was.  I'll talk further with Ken.  

 

Still cracking up that Ken's dad paid 144 dollars for the car.   Sounds like he negotiated down from 150.  

 

 

From Old Cars Weekly.....

 

Washington Roebling II — a member of the family that put up the legendary Brooklyn Bridge — was the man who crafted the looks of the Mercer Raceabout. Finley Robertson Porter, the company’s chief engineer, told Stein that the car was made before automakers had styling departments, but that it was Roebling who insisted on the low center of gravity that dictated the Mercer’s appearance. He partnered with several members of the wealthy Kuser Family to finance Mercer production and then developed the car’s racy lines. The Mercer name came from New Jersey’s Mercer County, where Trenton is located.

 

As a point of history, Finley Robertson Porter left Mercer in 1914 to start his own company. He produced a handful of F.R.P. automobiles with 170-hp single-overhead-cam four-cylinder engines through 1918. An F.R.P. was the top car on William F. Harrah’s wanted-vehicles list for some time.

 

 

[Walt G]

I don't recall posting them here, but may have ?? - I have period 8 x 10 prints of the Porter cars outside the factory in Ct. which was their final location I believe. To much going on and I am in a session of brain fog. The on going demand for pre WWII information, stories, photos  never lets up and now I have piles of photos, images etc that all need to be refiled so I can find it again. No complaints - I am looking at stuff I haven't viewed in decades, sort of recalled that I had which now are becoming pieces of the history puzzle to make as complete as possible what really happened at all levels ( from the inception of an idea, to getting a location to build, to finding supplies to work with, people to employ, designers for appearance, sales promotion, etc)  80+ years ago. To many stories not told and all could be of interest for a  "good read".

Edited April 9, 2022 by Walt G (see edit history)

[George K]

Just some more gleaned data. The text is by Robert Dick a important researcher and author. The photo from worthpoint. In 1925 that car won a commemorative hill climb race in Point Jefferson.

[George K]

This is from Hemmings . I have a memory of seeing an FRP engine race car being put together. Not sure were but?

[edinmass]

It’s fun to see the numbers going from 100, to 125, and then 170 horsepower. To me 170 was always most certainly lore or conjecture. I certainly believe 100 was realistic and possible…….hell, maybe even the 125. The addition information really makes the story come together nicely. I still wonder where that other engine and chassis parts ended up. If they survive…….probably a boat, as if it ever made it into a car again, we would probably have a bunch of information on it.

[George K]

Here we go. I knew I had seen it but many moons ago. Now all someone with the right sized wallet needs to do is track it down. Sorry about the poor quality picture. Need to work on that.

[wayne sheldon]

If anybody would like a better look at that short discussion George K showed above? It can be found on the Model T Ford forum.

 

A link directly to the discussion;

 

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/444710.html?1400006889

[George K]

51 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

If anybody would like a better look at that short discussion George K showed above? It can be found on the Model T Ford forum.

 

A link directly to the discussion;

 

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/444710.html?1400006889

Thanks. Past my pay grade.

[George K]

FRP 1914 race car. Some kind of GAR collector cars.

[BobinVirginia]

I had never heard of a Porter until I found this thread today! Thank you all for the information!

[edinmass]

Well, I wasn’t far off. The engine did make it into a chassis. Someone built some kind of modern hot rod. Would be fun to get photos of it when it ran the modern race. It’s probably stuck in some black hole car collection over the pond…….to get lost to time and rediscovered and passed off as an original speed car. I could ask a few friends of mine overseas, but the return favor would probably be ten times what it’s worth. 

[edinmass]

A much better photo of a 1921 Porter. 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Here is the new one in 2002 in Retromobile……….

[alsancle]

I edited the title to acknowledge FRP as the cars seem so intertwined. 

 

Thanks to everybody for their contributions.   The old saying that you learn something knew everyday is well at work here.

[George K]

12 hours ago, edinmass said:

Well, I wasn’t far off. The engine did make it into a chassis. Someone built some kind of modern hot rod. Would be fun to get photos of it when it ran the modern race. It’s probably stuck in some black hole car collection over the pond…….to get lost to time and rediscovered and passed off as an original speed car. I could ask a few friends of mine overseas, but the return favor would probably be ten times what it’s worth. 

I think there’s more to the story if David Greenlees is looking for it. He knows great cars and wouldn’t chase a dud. 

[edinmass]

3 minutes ago, George K said:

I think there’s more to the story if David Greenlees is looking for it. He knows great cars and wouldn’t chase a dud. 

I suspect you’re correct. It’s probably in the hands of somebody who wants it forgotten about. Kind of like the same thing with that Loco race car. 
 

[BobinVirginia]

24 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I suspect you’re correct. It’s probably in the hands of somebody who wants it forgotten about. Kind of like the same thing with that Loco race car. 
 

I’m hoping this is where the cars (like the worlds fair Caddy) that are missing still might exist. In private hands, hidden and forgotten 

Edited April 12, 2022 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[Walt G]

This is another topic/thread that is and has become a total education , even for those of us that knew most of the FRP/Porter story and its connection to Mercer because of the engineer who was responsible for all of the mechanical design/build at the time. This may be a bit obscure for many readers but all have to admit that it is of some interest just due to letting us all know "what was happening" then, and how creative and what steps had to be taken by fellows who were enthusiastic enough to get this car to exist. Most all communication then was by mail or in person, phones were around but also still a bit new and not in great private use . ( phone lines were then mostly "party lines" that many people could use and for use - you dialed an operator to connect you the person you wanted to talk to - another bit of history no one considers today)

I have discovered some photos I have of the factory in Ct. that Porter used and a car posed by same but will not share these as of yet because I am working on a number of stories that interconnect and they would be used for that, to post here now would derail  that line of research and story and raise questions the story will answer . One total package of information rather then speculation of scattered questions/answers.  I am not being secretive just cautious on how the true story/information is presented . Guessed at and mistaken information can become fact if it sees print and then a correct account later after that is not seen, again - myth becomes fact...........................

[George K]

Just for the heck of it.

[edinmass]

The above photo makes me wonder if any car with “very large horsepower…170?”…….How do dainty spoked wheels hold up? That car must have tipped the scales at 4500-5200 pounds. Those wheels look much too light to handle huge horsepower and mass……..and what about tires in 1914……clincher or straight sided……it’s a nice looking car, but the size of the people sitting in it may indicate it’s smaller than I/we think?

[George K]

35 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The above photo makes me wonder if any car with “very large horsepower…170?”…….How do dainty spoked wheels hold up? That car must have tipped the scales at 4500-5200 pounds. Those wheels look much too light to handle huge horsepower and mass……..and what about tires in 1914……clincher or straight sided……it’s a nice looking car, but the size of the people sitting in it may indicate it’s smaller than I/we think?

Hi Ed, If you back up to the crappy photo of mine showing the race car Wayne Sheldon posted a link and David Greenlees covers the weight issue. Under 3500 lbs.