The Porter & FRP Automobile

[alsancle]

19 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I still don’t believe the 140 horsepower rating on the engine. I wouldn’t accept 120 either. I’m thinking much more in the 80 hp range...........

 

Did you believe the 265 on the Duesenberg?

[edinmass]

36 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Did you believe the 265 on the Duesenberg?

Come take a ride with me..........you will become a believer! 😏

[edinmass]

My problem with the Porter number.......if it was anywhere near 140...........the legend would live on. And a few would have made it to today. Clutch and tire issues that early would have been a huge issue. 

[George K]

I once saw a porter. I was riding in a Pullman being pulled down tracks on the Magnolia express Chicago to New Orleans. I know it was a porter because his hat had a badge saying porter. He was a great guy.

[edinmass]

Riding in a Pullman were you?  🤔

 

The rail car, not the road car.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

I still don’t believe the 140 horsepower rating on the engine. I wouldn’t accept 120 either. I’m thinking much more in the 80 hp range...........

Of course it all depends how they arrive at that number. Looking at the 1915 Automobile Trade Journal, (Vol 20, page 160) they have a table that rates the F.R.P.'s 4 cylinder (4.6 x 6.75) single OHC, 16 valve @ 33 HP. I believe this is the old A.L.A.M. rating but I am not sure. The only period reference I have found to date for the 140 hp claim was in the "Automobile Journal" (April 1920, p 16) in reference to the Porter which used the same motor as in the earlier F.R.P.

 

Though I have no doubt with the bore and stroke ratio it had tons of torque and of course that is what does the work.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Terry, I think the real question is.........how well does an obscure boat engine work in a car. 

[8E45E]

6 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Terry, I think the real question is.........how well does an obscure boat engine work in a car. 

If a helicopter engine can, so can a boat engine!!

 

[George K]

21 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Riding in a Pullman were you?  🤔

 

The rail car, not the road car.

 

 

It was sleeping car and the porter makes up the berth. Riding the rails in style in a Pullman rail car back in the 1960’s. I think porters are as rare as the Porter car now. 

[edinmass]

If a Porter is a big POS like a Tucker.........I would have never participated in the post. Buy a Tucker, your a sucker. The worst POS ever attempted to make it to market.

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, George K said:

It was sleeping car and the porter makes up the berth. Riding the rails in style in a Pullman rail car back in the 1960’s. I think porters are as rare as the Porter car now. 

 

George......you have a bunch of years on me...........for some reason, I thought you were my age. 

[8E45E]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

If a Porter is a big POS like a Tucker.........I would have never participated in the post. Buy a Tucker, your a sucker. The worst POS ever attempted to make it to market.

Did you own stock in both companies?

 

Craig

[George K]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

 

George......you have a bunch of years on me...........for some reason, I thought you were my age. 

I wish! 

[1912Staver]

Later brass era stuff is pretty interchangeable. Boat, truck, industrial, larger car , they are all more or less built along the same lines. I am not sure of F.R.P's age in say 1920 , but he seems to be a man at the height of his career in the Mercer T head era. I am sure his engines would work just as well in a boat as a car. Sort of like that other guy.... . Harry Miller.

[edinmass]

Most early boat engines make better anchors than car power plants. Looking at the carburetor on the car in Maine, I expect the numbers on that unit are also over inflated. Considering the last 90 HP Simplex project that sold was almost seven figures.....and it was only about 60 percent complete..........any intact 140 plus horsepower platform would be well known with lots of scholarship. Not trying to rain on any car........but numbers that big would have created an urban legend........and not be forgotten.

Edited January 11, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

The problem with nearly all HP figures is that there was no universally agreed upon way of calculating them. They are, in effect, relative in a particular period. I'm thinking of the 4-cylinder "30 HP" Packard (one of which I've driven) and the "30 HP" 4-cylinder REO I once had. There was absolutely no comparison. The Packard had twice, if not three times the pulling power so the advertised HP was virtually meaningless. Actually, early on a lot of states had registration fees based on HP. It cost more to register a big HP car than a small one so the makers had a vested interest in understating HP. That obviously isn't the case with the Porter but we have no way of knowing how that figure was arrived at. I'm with Ed on this one...though I am sure it was a very powerful engine.

[George K]

36 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Most early boat engines make better anchors than car power plants. Looking at the carburetor on the car in Maine, I expect the numbers on that unit are also over inflated. Considering the last 90 HP Simplex project that sold was almost seven figures.....and it was only about 60 percent complete..........any intact 140 plus horsepower platform would be well known with lots of scholarship. Not trying to rain on any car........but numbers that big would have created an urban legend........and not be forgotten.

Here’s an exception to that rule. Stan Novak found the Miller engine in a boat in New York. It ended up in Boudeman’s Golden Sub.

[Ivan Saxton]

On 1/10/2022 at 2:22 PM, edinmass said:

Fun topic..........still no engine photos. Bummer. That said.......maybe 35 cars..........so I wouldn’t consider them anything but a footnote in history. The depression of 1920-1921 means it never had a chance. At the numbers posted..........you could have anything you wanted from an established company like Pierce, Packard, ect........would be great fun to look at one. Sadly, it’s very unlikely that any survive. I would refer to a Porter as a “back alley shop” to quote Ray Dietrich. A few people dreaming of a car company post WWI, when the true special cars were already gone.........and the few big boys were still in the game for the next fifteen years. 

I have some photos. including one and perhaps more; of the engine FRP that was being restored at Harrah's when I  visited there about September 1980.         After Auburn I visited Ernie Toth  and Ruth In Cleveland Ohio;  then by plane and then bus to Springfield Vermont.  I was invited guest of Morris and Libby Burrows for the Glidden tour which was based that year at Bretton Woods.          Morris and Libby particularly wanted me to meet Ralph Buckley and Henry Austin Clark.   Unfortunately Ralph had withdrawn after a bad fall on the deck of his mahogany  boat.    We could not interrupt Austie's late morning adjustment with pink gin.   If Ralph had been there I believe we could have enjoyed some mutually beneficial conversation.

Ralph met me at the bus depot at Atlantic City when I arrived from Springfield Vermont.   He uncovered the 1914 Raceabout where it stood in the building  next door to Ralph's workshop.  He said it needed fresh restoration,  but that we would take a drive in it nevertheless. When Ralph set the controls and gave the Armstrong starter a twist, it ran on one cylinder.  Ralph said we would have clean and lubricate all the exhaust valve stems and guide.      Then one of his men came from next door;  To summon Ralph to a phone conference with one of his customers.   I asked whether I should wait till Ralph returned.  He said "You know what you are doing".

I was wiping the tools and putting them in place when he returned.   He said "What, have you finished already. I said that " I was just pottering along".  It felt much happier on 4 cylinders.

After a couple of miles Ralph stopped, told me to get off, and then to get in the driver's seat.   I said "Ralph, when I was 10 or 12 years old at boarding school, another student had a copy of Ken Purdy's "Kings of the road".  I never expected to see  a Mercer Raceabout, let alone ride in one.  That is enough!!!

Ralph gave me driving instructions.    "Do not touch the footbrake.  It is not good for the axle gears."  If you slow down, change down, otherwise you can break the lugs which fasten the engine blocks to the crankcase.   The late raceabouts have about 6 to 1 compression ratio,  I reckon FRP saw and understood why the 1907 Tipo Taunus Isotta Franschinis went so well.  Two of the identiacal cars that IF made by contractfor the importers are still preserved. And I would bet sixpense to a greasy bootlace knew those cars and understood why they went so well at Savannah and elsewhere.  In the 1907 Coppa Florio,   Minoia averaged just under 69 mph for 302 miles, and used only 19.8 imperial gallons of fuel for that distance.   Everyone should have a copy of Sir Harry Ricardo's textbook for mechanical engineers, so you can understand that Cattaneo unwhittingly created PRIOR Art to Ricardo'sturbulence combustion Chamber, 10 years before the patent.   I'll try to finish itomorrow.

[Terry Harper]

9 hours ago, edinmass said:

Most early boat engines make better anchors than car power plants.

8 hours ago, George K said:

Here’s an exception to that rule.

Wisconsin was an exception as well. Many of the motors they offered were available in two or three formats including for Car, Boat & Tractor/Industrial. 

For instance they offered a model A, AM, AU. The first was for automotive use, the second was for marine and the third was for tractors/industrial. They were all the same engine just varying in regards to manifolds, mounts and crankcase material with the AM version being adapted to take a marine reversing gear bolted to the front. 

 

Remember that early on the Duesenburg made quite the name for themselves and put bread on the table by designing and manufacturing marine engines include a series of walking beam designs offered through Lowe-Victor.

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Terry, I would think besides the manifolds, ignition, cam shafts, and other alterations were done........... By 1910 using a power plant that wasn't exclusive for automotive use was shall we say....behind the times? Obviously we are now getting into the area of very limited production.........just a handful of marques and production of say 50 or less cars per year. For decades I wanted a McFarlin. When I finally drove one........I never wanted to experience it again. 

[edinmass]

I'm trying to remember.......didn't Richard Paine have a pre WWI car with a blower on it? For some reason I thought it was a FN. Maybe it was sold off after his death? I remember looking at it as a kid, but at the time I was much more interested in the DV-32 next to it.

[Terry Harper]

7 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I'm trying to remember.......didn't Richard Paine have a pre WWI car with a blower on it?

I can't answer that one. The first time I visited the museum was in the late 80's At that time the collection was rather eclectic and a lot of vehicles stuffed in. Several things stuck in my mind - the big Chadwick was impressive and I remember the remains of a V16? chassis moldering in the weeds outside. 

[Steve Moskowitz]

So obviously some interest here on the Porter.  The AACA Library has a thick file from Ralph Dunwoodie on the car with a lot of notes by Ralph.  We also did a story on the Porter many years ago in our magazine.  Material being scanned this morning and I will post later. 

[NewOldWood]

20 hours ago, Graham Man said:

 

1915 FRP

• Owner: Seal Cove Auto Museum
• Manufacturer: Finley Robertson Porter Company (Port Jefferson, New York, 1914-1918)
• Model: 45 Touring, Chassis #5
• Cost New: $8000
• Number produced: 9
• Engine: Single overhead camshaft, 16 valve, inline four cylinder water-cooled. 454 cubic inch displacement
• Horsepower: 170
• Transmission: Four speed selective sliding
• Brakes: Mechanical on rear wheels
• Suspension: Semi-elliptic leaf springs
• Provenance: #5 of only nine built, and the only one known to have survived.
• Additional info: Advertised as “America's Foremost Pleasure Car,” the F.R.P. was also one of America’s most expensive and most limited edition cars. With a top-speed of 80-plus M.P.H., this very rare car was designed by Finley R. Porter, creator of the T-head Mercer Raceabout. This may be the very first production car utilizing a 4 valve per cylinder layout.

https://www.sealcoveautomuseum.org/collection-test/1915-frp/

 

I have very little exposure to cars of this era so have very little to add, but find this to be very interesting. Taking the stats listed here at face value and making an assumption or two, a couple questions/observations come to mind. The geometry of the engine and metalurgy of the day are obviousy going to limit engine speed, but some quick math says that to make 170 horsepower at 1200rpm is roughly 750ft/lb of torque, and at 1500rpm (could this thing turn that fast?) it would be making 600ft/lb. What did the transmission and differential look like to be able to transmit that much torque? Must have been quite substantial. A single overhead cam 16 valve T-head engine, obviously (?) a rocker arm setup? I'd love to get a look at that. Seems to me that draging a car like this down from 80mph with nothing but rear brakes would require......patience.....among other things?

 

Just a little noise from the peanut gallery. Really enjoying this thread!!

[George K]

1 hour ago, Terry Harper said:

Wisconsin was an exception as well. Many of the motors they offered were available in two or three formats including for Car, Boat & Tractor/Industrial. 

For instance they offered a model A, AM, AU. The first was for automotive use, the second was for marine and the third was for tractors/industrial. They were all the same engine just varying in regards to manifolds, mounts and crankcase material with the AM version being adapted to take a marine reversing gear bolted to the front. 

 

Remember that early on the Duesenburg made quite the name for themselves and put bread on the table by designing and manufacturing marine engines include a series of walking beam designs offered through Lowe-Victor.

 

Here is a marine version of your beloved P Wisconsin. Oil pan cast with mounts and reverser gear box . Flywheel forward for servicing. Set on pitched bunks to propeller angle. Great work horse but marine versions are useless for automobile use. I have owned a few.

[George K]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Terry, I would think besides the manifolds, ignition, cam shafts, and other alterations were done........... By 1910 using a power plant that wasn't exclusive for automotive use was shall we say....behind the times? Obviously we are now getting into the area of very limited production.........just a handful of marques and production of say 50 or less cars per year. For decades I wanted a McFarlin. When I finally drove one........I never wanted to experience it again. 

My understanding of the Austin automobile built in Grand Rapids fits into the same category. I have it for a great source the car had so many problems he deemed it “possessed”.

[Walt G]

Neat to read what Steve M. said. Ralph Dunwoodie and I corresponded regularly for years ( well before the internet era) he was an amazing researcher , especially for periodicals which most people do not have access to. Anything odd, especially if it were of larger capacity horsepower was an ongoing topic and if that was added to a obscure make of car we both loved it even better. As I keep saying - so much great material that has never been seen since it was published over a century ago.

I am so happy that my friend Al San Clemente started this thread/topic , look at all the information and images that are turning up ! Pieces of the puzzle , how many people here are shaking their heads and saying "Geez Really!" and to think all of this stuff designed and built with no aide form a computer - pencils, paper, slide rules....................and perhaps a few erasers as well.

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, George K said:

My understanding of the Austin automobile built in Grand Rapids fits into the same category. I have it for a great source the car had so many problems he deemed it “possessed”.

 

Yes! It’s now owned by a friend. We were driving it a few years ago. It’s now reasonably sorted and drivable. Since he has over 100 cars, it’s not critical that it can drive cross country. The car is a monster. I was lucky enough to get to play with the Chadwick...........interesting car, fantastic engineering, and one hell of a dump truck!

[edinmass]

Walt......occasionally AJ comes up with a good idea. Don’t tell him I said that. Unfortunately I recently told him to buy a big brass car.........he hesitated, and it was gone. Next time.........😏

[Terry Harper]

1 hour ago, George K said:

Here is a marine version of your beloved P Wisconsin. Oil pan cast with mounts and reverser gear box . Flywheel forward for servicing. Set on pitched bunks to propeller angle. Great work horse but marine versions are useless for automobile use. I have owned a few.

 

Here is the PT version for comparison

 

[Steve Moskowitz]

[Steve Moskowitz]

[alsancle]

Nice article Steve.  Thanks!

[Terry Bond]

Thanks Steve - and Kudos to the Library and Research Center (and staff) once again for sharing items from the amazing collection there.  I've been following with great interest but have little to add except for the excitement in learning more about what was just a name to me (and a style of beer).

[1912Staver]

I think Ed's ideas about the HP hold water. The claimed HP seems to be very fluid. From around 100 HP to the 160 figure. So more likely 100 - 125 HP in real world circumstances. Still a very powerful car for its era. It also sounds like F.R.P himself had very little involvement with the cars produced as Porter automobiles , so most of the development work would have happened in the F.R.P. days.

Advertising claims are often to be taken with a grain of salt. Chassis dyno's were a pretty rare thing in the late teens and early 20's I suspect . So a company could conger HP figures more or less out of thin air if it was thought to boost sales.

[George K]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

Yes! It’s now owned by a friend. We were driving it a few years ago. It’s now reasonably sorted and drivable. Since he has over 100 cars, it’s not critical that it can drive cross country. The car is a monster. I was lucky enough to get to play with the Chadwick...........interesting car, fantastic engineering, and one hell of a dump truck!

I knew Bill Pollock well. I met him the late 1970’s. He was quite a guy. Worked with him on a Mercedes special roadster he had powered by a Perkins diesel. He was very kind to me and spoke highly of Lee Chadwick. Nicked this picture somewhere. Nothing better in this world than a race car turned into a sports car.

[Gunsmoke]

I've been fascinated by old cars since I was 8 or 9 years old and "helping" my mechanic Dad fixing other people's cars in the wood plank floored garage sitting 50' from the house. Still think/dream about it regularly. Articles like this post rekindle my interest and fascination with the early pioneers of the automobile, and encourage me to continue with my present restoration work. Thanks to Walt, Steve, and all the contributors, the dialog and debate makes great reading.

[Walt G]

Gunsmoke - This is why I and a lot of others take the time to place here ( wonderful opportunity to do so courtesy of AACA) what we have in our collections or know about. It is about sharing.

Many of us have done this most of our lives with no seeking of approval or thanks, just glad we can return what was done for us by fiends no longer here to tell them how much it meant to us when they did and how it has affected us decades later. I for one know/feel those long gone friends are standing at my side, even as I type this now. Yes, it chokes me up to type that.

Some people have the cars, the information etc for the prestige, fame, glory recognition but a few of us just have and share what we have because it is what we feel is the right thing to do. It is a "feel good" for us. I have been fortunate to  have so many good friends worldwide that just feel and care the same way I do.  Nothing more.

Walt

[jrbartlett]

Bingo. What I remembered about the Porter's vibrations was correct. It must have been this article that I remembered reading back in the day.

Edited January 11, 2022 by jrbartlett (see edit history)

[George K]

On 1/11/2022 at 10:42 AM, Steve Moskowitz said:

I drove by the Westgate estate on Lake Geneva Wi many times starting in the mid 1960’s. Beautiful compound. Never saw anyone outside the place. My future in-laws owned a home just down Lake shore drive. Should whipped my red and black 1965 Rambler Marlin in one of the several driveways. Could of peeked in one of the garages. Like I say it was the 1960’s. Someone once said if you remember the 60’s you probably weren’t there. High times for sure.