Engine identification Help needed - Stutz? Cadillac?

[wayne sheldon]

5 hours ago, Quality said:

Where are data info located on the peerless?

 

I can't say about Peerless specifically, however, in general it varies, a lot. Other than the biggest manufacturers, General Motors, Dodge, Chrysler, Ford and a few others, MOST automobile manufacturers used engines manufactured by one of several engine manufacturing companies. Herschell-Spillman was not widely used, but was noted for some really good stuff. Lycoming and Continental were two of the largest suppliers, Buda and a few others were also well known into and even beyond the 1920s. Earlier years, there were a dozen or more smaller companies that mostly moved on to other products or were bought out by their competition.

MOST outside supplier engines will have had an identification tag low on the crankcase, one side or the other. That tag may or may not identify who manufactured the motor. Most tags did identify the engine manufacturer and engine model. My 1927 Paige does not identify the manufacturer, although I know it was built by Continental from other research and records. The Paige engine was in part designed by Paige, and unique to Paige, and that is likely the reason it didn't originally identify Continental. Those data plates sometimes came off and disappeared, sometimes leaving tack pins/rivets behind.

Other data plates on cars varied so much that there is no standard place to look. Some cars had plates somewhere on the frame? Many did not. A lot of cars had one on the firewall, not much help if you don't have the firewall.

It is likely that you have significant remains of one car, and two additional very similar engines along with maybe a few other extra related pieces. Likely that someone years ago acquired the remains hoping to resurrect a rare car? Still maybe a worthwhile endeavor. It looks like you (your FIL) have most of the key pieces if it can be identified.

[1937hd45]

 

 

 

 

That is were the money will be, a clone of this race car. There is enough in that pile to build a "Great Race" car. Are the axles Peerless also? The wheels look like a smaller late 1920's diameter. Bob 

[Paul Dobbin]

I never looked at the engine, but this Peerlesss V8 is still competing.    I raced against John Hollingsworht in this one in e 1990's and I'm glad it;s still being used.    https://www.learninggarage.com/vehicles/1917-peerless-green-dragon-racer

 

1917 Peerless Speedster "The Green Dragon"

Engine

330 cubic inch V8, 80 horsepower

Transmission

Three-speed Peerless non-synchromesh manual

 

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THE THREE MOST LEGENDARY LUXURY AUTOMOBILES SOLD in the United States were euphemistically called “The Three P’s”—Packard, Peerless and Pierce-Arrow. Never a car built for the masses, the all-new Peerless V8 engine was introduced in 1916 to better compete against the “upstart” Cadillac, which introduced their first V8 in 1915.

The 1917 Peerless was “tax rated” at 33.8 horsepower, with the 330 cubic inch V8 engine actually producing 80 work-horsepower. The car featured a three-speed transmission and two-speed rear axle. The car was massive, with a 125-inch wheelbase.

This particular car was believed to be a board-track racer during the 1920s. After an early racing career, it was tucked away and sat in a barn for several decades. Lifelong car enthusiast and racecar driver John Hollansworth rescued it in the early 1990s and restored it to its former board-track racing glory with the purpose of competing in the Great Race (an annual cross-country timed road rally).

Since its restoration, The Green Dragon has competed in more than 15 cross-country road rallies (including the Great Race), logging more than 80,000 miles and still counting.

1917 Peerless Speedster "The Green Dragon"

Engine

330 cubic inch V8, 80 horsepower

Transmission

Three-speed Peerless non-synchromesh manual

 

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THE THREE MOST LEGENDARY LUXURY AUTOMOBILES SOLD in the United States were euphemistically called “The Three P’s”—Packard, Peerless and Pierce-Arrow. Never a car built for the masses, the all-new Peerless V8 engine was introduced in 1916 to better compete against the “upstart” Cadillac, which introduced their first V8 in 1915.

The 1917 Peerless was “tax rated” at 33.8 horsepower, with the 330 cubic inch V8 engine actually producing 80 work-horsepower. The car featured a three-speed transmission and two-speed rear axle. The car was massive, with a 125-inch wheelbase.

This particular car was believed to be a board-track racer during the 1920s. After an early racing career, it was tucked away and sat in a barn for several decades. Lifelong car enthusiast and racecar driver John Hollansworth rescued it in the early 1990s and restored it to its former board-track racing glory with the purpose of competing in the Great Race (an annual cross-country timed road rally).

Since its restoration, The Green Dragon has competed in more than 15 cross-country road rallies (including the Great Race), logging more than 80,000 miles and still counting.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Paul Dobbin
spill check (see edit history)

[lump]

Quality, do you reside near where these engines and components are stored? I would be impatient to look at the center hubs of the wire wheels if I were in your shoes, because these sometimes featured the brand name of the vehicle they had been fitted on (the wheels were made by wheel manufacturers, but offered on the showroom floor and over-the-counter by dealerships, etc). It's common to find strong clues there...ASSUMING that the axles were indeed part of the vehicle(s) which the engines came from. 

 

And as others have stated previously, the engine blocks sometimes had ID tags riveted on the side of block, just above the oil pan. 

 

We're all quite interested to learn more about this cool stash of really nice old parts. 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

I don't know who started this "3 P's" nonsense but I don't buy it. Peerless was never as important as Packard or Pierce Arrow. In my mind Pierce Arrow was always the top of the heap with a few rivals like McFarlan, Duesenberg and Locomobile that never matched it in terms of longevity or number of cars sold. Then there was the second tier of luxury cars like Packard, Cadillac, Lincoln and the top of the line cars from other makers like Studebaker President, Chrysler Imperial and REO Royale.

To me Peerless was a regional maker of fine cars like  Cunningham or Daniels seldom seen  outside their local market. No doubt they made some nice cars but I can't see a luxury car buyer outside Ohio carefully comparing the merits of Packard, Pierce Arrow and Peerless before making a selection.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

 

Rusty, I think the "three Ps" business goes back quite a ways, likely before the crash of 1929, and even before Peerless began to decline as a significant builder. Going further back, Peerless was one of the top tier (to use a modern phrase?) manufacturers, and had as impressive a racing presence as anybody. Their "Green Dragon" cars (there were a few of them!) dominated a significant amount of racing in America for almost a decade. In their first two decades, their quality of build and reliability was as good as almost any of the best. 

Their production numbers were always lower than either Packard or Pierce Arrow. And they began their death decline before the stock market crash. And production dwindled (which neither of the other two did) in the 1920s.

Sales outside their region were better than one might think. Growing up in Califunny, I was introduced to several surviving Peerless automobiles that had been here since new. Even a cousin of mine owned one!

Looking back from a century later? It may be difficult to grasp the position they held. But in their day? You were 'someone' if you owned a Peerless!

[edinmass]

Peerless went to the outsourced V-8 around 1914-1915, and became an assembled car........add in the truck production shutting down car manufacturing during WWI, and they were only a slight fraction of what they once were. The last T head cars were in 15........very few were made. The era of the “three P’s” was from 1904 - 1915. 

[58L-Y8]

The inclusion in "The Three P's" of premiere American luxury carmakers for Peerless was established by their large, high-quality and expensive ($4K-$7K) motorcars built during their first decade in business.  An impressive racing reputation also contributed to the aura.  Management changes broadened their model range price coverage with the 1915 V8, reducing prices to a third of that was typical beforehand.    While still quality cars, became regarded as assembled cars with the Northway-sourced V8 as Ed cited.  Further management upheaval in the 1920's with more lower-priced models succeeded in scrambling whatever was left of their sterling prestige reputation.  By the Continental-engine era cars, the "All that the Name Implies" slogan had lost all its meaning.   

 

A prestige/luxury car reputation is a fragile thing: difficult to establish but easy to diminish by a few wrong moves.

[Rusty_OToole]

The oldest reference I have seen to "3Ps" was from the 1950s or 60s and was by an Englishman. I don't see how Peerless compared to Pierce or Packard when one sold for twice as much money and the other sold 10 times as many cars.

You might as well talk of the "3 P's" of movie stars - Brad Pitt, Al Pacino and Pee Wee Herman.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

I revived a 1922 Peerless for a friend years ago and the engines do look very similar. The one I worked on had single ignition. I remember it had a roller cam and insert bearings also. In fact, here's the car for sale again. Google is my friend. Dandy Dave!

http://davidsclassiccars.com/other-makes/378388-1922-peerless-speedster.htmlhttp://davidsclassiccars.com/other-makes/378388-1922-peerless-speedster.htmlhttp://davidsclassiccars.com/other-makes/378388-1922-peerless-speedster.html

Edited August 28, 2021 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

To go back to the subject, If you look closely at the photo of a Herschell-Spillman engine from a 1917 Daniels you will see that it has 8 spark plugs per bank of cylinders(last post on pg 1 of this thread). Routine for the Daniels version? Modified by the kind of people who put OHV heads on Model T's? I don't know. Maybe one of the OP's engines is from a Daniels. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

If that is a Herschel-Spillman V8 from a Daniels, that's one rare engine!   Images collected

[Craig Gillingham]

I think the two separate engines in the OP are both Peeress, there are a few details that match other Peerless engines. For me, the adjustable brake and clutch pedals are very distinctive. The engine in the chassis I'm not so sure about, as it has details that match a Peerless and other details that don't.

 

I'm familiar with this actual Daniels engine shown above, it used to be in Australia at one stage (I even took that photo!), and that definitely had single ignition. Those extra plugs would have only have been placed there to fill the priming plug holes. It belonged to a mate, and I know that it has since been sold and I was told that it was a 1916 engine.

 

 

[jeff_a]

Thank you Craig. What are the chances that someone on the AACA Discussion Board is familiar with that Daniels engine - much less having taken the photo? Super rare engine, super rare car. I tried finding the production numbers for the 10 or so carmakers using the Herschell-Spillman V-8 design, and thought maybe it was 400-800** for Daniels. The only companies with bigger numbers were Abbott-Detroit(1,400**), Apperson(6,000-7,000**), Standard(14,600**), and Peerless(34,000**)....the latter apparently building them in their own plant and improving the layout annually. 

I never thought that putting in extra plugs in the primer cup holes would be a possibility. It must have been an old-time fix for something like broken or leaking primer cups. Is the photo you posted of a Peerless interior? What year car? 

 

**my estimates from Standard Catalog, Vol. I, Clark and Kimes

Edited September 2, 2021 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Some early luxury cars had dual ignition, trembler coil for easy starting on the hand crank and magneto for high speed running. That went out when Kettering type distributor ignition and electric start came in. After that, fire engines and airplanes had dual ignition for reliability but I don't know of any cars.

Here is a wild idea - use the dual ignition V8 to build a special or raceabout and tell everyone it is the first V16

[Craig Gillingham]

15 hours ago, jeff_a said:

Thank you Craig. What are the chances that someone on the AACA Discussion Board is familiar with that Daniels engine - much less having taken the photo? Super rare engine, super rare car. I tried finding the production numbers for the 10 or so carmakers using the Herschell-Spillman V-8 design, and thought maybe it was 400-800** for Daniels. The only companies with bigger numbers were Abbott-Detroit(1,400**), Apperson(6,000-7,000**), Standard(14,600**), and Peerless(34,000**)....the latter apparently building them in their own plant and improving the layout annually. 

I never thought that putting in extra plugs in the primer cup holes would be a possibility. It must have been an old-time fix for something like broken or leaking primer cups. Is the photo you posted of a Peerless interior? What year car? 

 

**my estimates from Standard Catalog, Vol. I, Clark and Kimes

The pedal photo came from this AACA thread featuring a 1917 Peerless.

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/122653-new-peerless-discovered/

 

[Standard Eight]

These motors appear to be Peerless engines, which used a modified version of the Herschell-Spillman designed V8.  There are several ways to differentiate the Peerless Herschell-Spillman V8 and say the Standard Eight Herschell-Spillman V8.  The easiest difference to spot is how the cooling tubes are attached.  The cooling tubes on the Peerless are flange bolted to the monolithic head while the cooling tubes on the Standard Eight are attached using a captive nut machined into the head with an attaching "bolt" encircling the cooling tubes down pipes.

 

And the Herschell-Spillman V8s used in the Standard Eights were available with either single ignition or dual ignition.  The dual ignition system used a rear distributor to start the car and a front mounted magneto once the car was running.  I have attached a picture of a Herschell-Spillman V8 from a Standard Eight which shows the dual ignition setup.

[jeff_a]

Standard Eight,

    Excellent information on the single/dual ignition options on the Standard. Great photo -- such complexity! I learned a lot recently reading your page on the 1915 Standard Eight Roadster, particularly the carmakers using H-S engines and the places these V-8s were manufactured.

 

1937hd45,

   You seemed to get a kick out of the idea of the Peerless race car and a re-creation. I found another pic of the Atwater-Kent 1917 racer today:

 

 

 

...small print says: "Special PEERLESS 8 Raceabout -- Speed 95 miles per hour -- Equipped with Type CC Ignition"

Edited October 14, 2021 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[racer2_uk]

Good morning everybody,

 

I have just found this thread and was amazed to see the photo of the Herschell Spillman V8 that was for sale on PreWar car, I bought that engine !   it was in Australia before I shipped it to the UK a couple of years ago, I also bought another from Norway, both were in poor condition but the Norway engine was a lot worse but gave me a lot of parts, the engine from Australia seems to be a 1916 version, the Norway engine a little later, the core plugs and crank bearing width's are the main difference's.

 

 

 

There were a huge amount of engineering problems to overcome, from frost cracking in one of the combustion chambers and oil pump to rusting through one of the cylinders along with the normal seized in pistons, worn out skew gears and worn out white-metalling.

 

I fitted a K-W Ignition WW1 aero magneto driven from the rear of the fan drive and a handed pair of Rayfield carbs and exhausts of my own design.

 

 

The engine is now finished and running and waiting for something to drop it in, has anybody got a 1910-1918 car with a failed engine ? anything considered.

 

 

Andy

Edited May 14, 2022 by racer2_uk (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

Absolutely Amazing Work!   Now, to find an appropriate chassis into which to install that engine!

[racer2_uk]

Evenin 58L-Y8 and all,

 

Thank you for all the positive messages, I am amazed that you all appreciate what I have done with this old HS V8, it took a lot of work but I am so happy with the result.

Here are a few more photo's of the rebuild.

 

 

As I asked earlier, if you know of a brass car with a failed engine please let me know.

 

 

Andy

 

 

Andy

[1937hd45]

That engine rebuild looks great, nice shop as well. Vintage racing in the UK allows a bit more room for building a Vintage Race Car, hope a chassis turns up for this project.

 

Bob 

[racer2_uk]

Good evening everybody,

 

Thank you very much for you kind words, it is appreciated,   to 1937hd45,  I have to admit that not all the photo's are of my workshop, the crank grinder is in my local engineer's, I don't have the equipment for crank grinding, reboring and white metalling, the other shop is my friend Steve's balancing shop, he is known as "wobbly Steve" and is the best balancer I have found, he does F1 stuff !

 

This engine has been a challenge at times due to the extent of the problems due to age and condition, I have rebuilt many engines with problems but this was hard work.

 

Some of the other engines I have rebuilt are,

 

Alvis Leonides radial,

 

 

1924 Napier Lion,

 

 

1914 Daimler double sleeve valve,

 

 

1913 Chalmers 36,

 

 

Spare 1913 Chalmers 36,

 

 

my current rebuild of an unknown European air cooled 4 cylinder from around 1905-1910,

 

 

Thanks again for your interest.

 

 

Andy

[wayne sheldon]

Some really net stuff!

I followed the rebuilding of your Chalmers spare on your Chalmers thread.

[Standard Eight]

@racer2_uk your HS rebuild looks terrific.  It is fantastic that you took the time and expense to rebuild one of these early V8 engines.  Looking forward to seeing that motor in a chassis.  Shortly before the Covid closures I was able to buy a second Standard Eight (the Sedanete version), with the HS V8 engine.  And finally, all is clear, and we will be headed out to pick up the car and spare parts.  The car has not been run in more than 25-30 years so I expect it will be several years before I get it sorted out and on the road.  Good luck with your chassis search.  Bob

[jeff_a]

Racer2_uk,

    Great that you found this thread. Excellent engine re-building coming out of your shop! I have read about your Chalmers before, but finding solutions to the two engine's problems you started with is extraordinary. There are 4 Peerlesses in each Scandinavian country. Did the Norwegian engine come from Vegard Gullikstad? I corresponded with him about 12 years ago when he found a thrown-together car w/ a Peerless rad shell, radiator, rad emblem and I believe a dashboard.........then found a Peerless V-8 engine, sans carburetor, in some farmer's barn. The homemade jalopy had a later-model inline six, and we thought the V-8 motor was 1920 or 1921-era....and was used as a hillclimb car in Sweden.

    I noticed that some of the OP's piccies at the start of this thread show a chassis, differential, springs, etc.  Maybe that's your frame source.

----Jeff

 

 

---- Have you ever read the long article in Curbside Classics that touches on the evolution from the first mass-produced V-8, De Dion-Bouton, to the Cadillac, to the H-S, to the Peerless? It shows the family resemblance of your finished engine to the other three.

https://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/automotive-history-and-vintage-review-peerless-one-of-the-great-pioneering-american-luxury-marques-and-a-close-look-at-a-brass-era-1910-landaulet/

Edited May 18, 2022 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Finding the right sort of chassis from the correct era may be a bit of a challenge. Engines in general seem to survive a bit more commonly as they often were adapted to other purposes , pumps, saws , generators, compressors , etc. once the cars useful life was over. Some large cars were converted to farm wagon use, I have such a chassis myself. But it is probably a bit too new for your engine. A 1926 Cadillac 314. The short wheelbase for 1926 as I believe it came from a Custom Series, Roadster. But still a reasonably big car, at a 132 inch wheel base. If you are possibly interested let me know.

Greg

Edited May 15, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

I should have asked the price on the circa 1912 Cadillac chassis at Hershey 2022 right about where the old Coker stand was in the Chocolate field. Maybe is was bought by someone in the UK and is racing there this weekend. Bob 

[racer2_uk]

Evenin Bob and everbody else that has shown interest in the engine rebuilds,

 

Bob, thanks for thinking about the chassis you found, I am looking for a complete car that has had an engine failure or the engine is missing, anything 1910-1918 will be considered.

 

Thanks again to everyone that has taken an interest.

 

 

Andy

[1912Staver]

A pretty tall order I am afraid. A car big enough for your HS V8 will in almost every case , even without an engine,  be worth a lot more than the cost of finding the correct engine. Especially so if it falls in the 1910- 1918 time frame. Almost no cheaper than just buying a complete car. Large brass or early nickel era cars are still in significant demand. A 1916 - 18 Cadillac might be your best bet.

Edited May 17, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

 

Try for a White truck chassis for 1915 to 1919........1 1/4 ton or less. They are around. And they have four speed transmissions. There are some available in Texas right now..........left hand drive, rear brakes only, top quality stuff........White cars and trucks were EXPENSIVE and similar in quality to Packard, Pierce, and others. They make great speedsters. But they are still around. And ones with bad engines should trade at a discount. 

[George K]

White truck/ cars have alloy steel chassis’s and beautiful forged steering parts. Here’s one somebody was planning to use as a speedster as the front axle has been drilled to lighten. Blastermike posted these photos. 9’6” wb.

[George K]

P.S. The White would work slick as your engine has a three point mount just like White..

[1912Staver]

Packard trucks are out there as well . But even the " small " 1 ton is a lot more truck like than these smaller Whites. Other than the actual size of the parts involved a Packard 1 ton is almost exactly the same design as a Packard 3 ton. { a real truck ! } They just scaled the drawings up or down depending on the size. White quality is very good, but Packard is in the same catagory.

 Ed , you should consider getting a Packard truck to keep your Whites company. You will be just as amazed by their quality as is the case with White vehicles.

[edinmass]

We have a few Packard trucks in the collection. All three trucks are split window Individual Custom Dietrich’s…..a 904 &  two 1108’s. Fancy looking trucks I admit. Not quite up to Pierce Arrow standards……but then again, what is? 😏

[jeff_a]

Andy -- What car was your completed engine in when it was built? It's a little hard to follow, with all the photos and shared parts in your completed engine. I guess it would be cool if you could find an Apperson Jackrabbit needing a new V-8.

 

...or a Standard, Peerless, Daniels, Ross, Rock Falls, Murray, Monarch, Douglas, or Abbott. 

 

You could throw a dart at a dartboard with these names on it..........but as 1912 Staver said, a nearly-complete 1910-1918 car would have some value, and some of the 10 makes that did use the Herschell-Spillman probably don't have any surviving examples anywhere.

Edited May 18, 2022 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[racer2_uk]

Good morning everybody,

 

Thanks to everybody for your interest and idea's for a chassis for my HS V8, the reason I am looking for a car with an engine problem or no engine is that I want a car with a title to make registration easier over here, also I want to hillclimb the car and a truck chassis is not allowed in the hillclimb "car" clubs.

 

Thanks again for all you help and idea's.

 

 

Andy

[Standard Eight]

I made the trip to Minnesota last weekend and brought back my new, to me, 1923 Standard Eight Sedanette.  Far from a beauty queen at this point, but I am grateful that all the parts and pieces to the car are present as well as the HS V8 engine being totally complete.  Bob

[dibarlaw]

So glad you found another Standard 8! Your accounts of the 1915 Roadster has been missed. Sedanette seems like an inapropriate name indicating something lighter and more delacate. This is a beast of a sedan.

[ksparks]

10 minutes ago, Standard Eight said:

I made the trip to Minnesota last weekend and brought back my new, to me, 1923 Standard Eight Sedanette.  Far from a beauty queen at this point, but I am grateful that all the parts and pieces to the car are present as well as the HS V8 engine being totally complete.  Bob