1932 Duesenberg Question

[alsancle]

8 minutes ago, GregLaR said:

Ed,

           What became of all those "original" bodies from these revisioned cars?  Were they simply tossed on the scrap heap?

Greg

 

Some of them are still floating around.   George Albright put this one back on a car.

 

https://www.oldcarsweekly.com/features/judkins-duesenberg

 

[edinmass]

A few are still sitting in garages. With hopes of "going back" , but remember many were beat to death and weathered, so they were cut up for door latches, window regulators, ect.

Edited July 13, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

20 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

My enlightened self interest stopped me from naming Dutch as a hammer man.

 

Build quality in US coachbuilders goes something like this:

 

1.  Brewster

2.  Dietrich

3.  Lebaron

4.  Rollston

5.  Murphy

6.  A bunch of guys

7.

8.

99. B&S

 

After I buy a B&S Duesenberg I will edit this list so please do not quote me.

 

 

American vs European Coach Work, another topic for sure, but what I've worked on tells me the American shops had more equipment to form metal. They all knew how to gas weld, Europeans just had a lot more pieces. 

 

Bob 

Edited July 13, 2021 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

3 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

American vs European Coach Work, another topic for sure, but what I've worked on tells me the American shops had more equipment to form metal. They all knew how to gas weld, Europeans just had a lot more pieces. 

 

Bob 

 

You have the same pecking order sort of thing going on in Europe.    Build quality varied quite a bit depending on the coachbuilder.  

[Steve_Mack_CT]

4 hours ago, Shipping reccomendations said:

Edinmass: with what you said about pure  provenance, it’s surprising that the one owner Duesenberg that belong to Coburn in West Hartford Ct. that sold about 3 or 4 years ago didn’t bring more money. From my understanding it was all original except for a White truck transmission.

Do you have a link or additional info on this one, by chance?  Being from my home town that would be interesting.

[1937hd45]

Just now, alsancle said:

 

You have the same pecking order sort of thing going on in Europe.    Build quality varied quite a bit depending on the coachbuilder.  

Matching sides on the unrestored race cars.

[SC38dls]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

you get on a plane, and fly to Paris, to go to the Louvre and look at the Mona Lisa. 
 

or you can type it up on your computer and look at it on your screen. I can tell you that it’s not the same experience. 

If you have a big screen on your computer you can make it bigger and easier to see for old guys like me. The original is small! 

[edinmass]

13 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

If you have a big screen on your computer you can make it bigger and easier to see for old guys like me. The original is small! 

 

 

Yes, but you don't get the sensation of all the foreigners pushing their way through the line to look at it for ten seconds. Sort of like the shushers at the Sistine Chapel making people be quiet. 

[John Bloom]

1 hour ago, GregLaR said:

Ed,

           What became of all those "original" bodies from these revisioned cars?  Were they simply tossed on the scrap heap?

Greg

I had an interesting conversation three months ago with an older gentleman who 50 years ago bought and sold many Duesenberg‘s in the Chicagoland area as well as other high end iron.  He Told the story about the guy converting a Duesenberg sedan into a phaeton and said they pulled the body off and he stuck it in his backyard and his kids used it as a treehouse/playground. 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Model J guys and Model A guys approached the hobby the same way it seems, circa 1953 -1970.  MARC & CCCA were established at almost the same time.  MARC was founded in my home town as well, in 1953.

 

A bitsa and a scramble are essentially the same thing, but I have never heard the term scramble before.  You would think those Duesenberg guys would come up with something more fitting, parts a la cart perhaps. 😁

[Mark Huston]

6 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Thank you for helping to clarify the way this Duesenberg started out in life.   I have enjoyed reading all of the comments and have been enlightened by the shared knowledge posted here.   Comparing the picture of how this Duesenberg looked when originally built to how it now looks with an open body I prefer the original version.   I guess it is from seeing nothing but open Duesenbergs in person or in pictures I have become numb to Duesenberg roadsters and phaetons.   I prefer the elegance and rarity of a large formal closed body Duesenberg. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Mark Huston (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Ain't metaphysics fun?!

Some people (including me I will admit) tend to think 'things' have a sort-of heart and soul. That although they do NOT 'think'? Therefore they still are.

Taking yachtflame's boat example, replacing a plank per year for ninety years may replace the entire boat structure. However, as each plank is integrated into the structure, and allowed to 'be' with the rest of it, it 'becomes' a part of the whole. Although the end result may be similar (that of not having any original wood left), the heart and soul of the boat, its history, and its being may still remain. And besides, many of the older replaced pieces did participate in much of that history.

 

Over the years, I have 'restored', although I usually joke and call it a 'resurrection', several cars from very little remains of a vehicle. One model T pickup I acquired the blacksmith built brackets and small iron pieces of an original body. Very little was left of the original wood, and a previous owner had taken the chassis to use for another car, and thrown away all the remaining wood. Using era photographs of a similar pickup, I 'replicated' the woodwork, and then assembled an appropriate chassis for the little truck. Was it a real survivor? No. But it had been built up from the remains of an original era pickup. Its 'heart and soul' may not have been whole or intact, but to me at least, It did have some spark of that 'heart and soul'. When it came time I had to sell it, I explained what had been done, what was original era, and what was not.

 

I have done similar things with a few model T speedsters. Many model T speedsters that survived the wartime scrap drives were in the 1950s parted out to provide engines and axles for "Real" model Ts (as if there was any shortage of those things in those days!!?). One of those "hobby fads" I mentioned earlier. A lot of model T history was lost because it wasn't appreciated as it should have been.

For thirty years, going to swap meets often, I looked a lot of the worst junk. In those piles, I often found original era modified remains of original era speedsters. Usually, those 'damaged' parts were cheap, but I bought lots of them. Over the years, I put together as many original era speedster pieces as I could, and 'resurrected' a few speedsters.

I often joked that one of my cars wasn't a "restored original era speedster, it was three original era speedsters!" 

 

So  I tend to look at these great classics through a similar lens. The more intact it is relative to its original self? The better! 

However, better to see, hear, and experience the feel of a put-together-from-leftovers car, than none at all. 

Throwing aside a good original body in favor of a reproduction more desirable body? Always was wrong. But you cannot change the past. You can however try to fix some of the mistakes. (Like repainting, re-restoring, and joint swapping engines or other parts back into their original cars.)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Here is a nice closed Duesenberg for you Mark.  A regular at some of the better local shows here in CT, haven't seen it out and about in maybe 20 years.  I took these shots  in the parking lot of a CT shoreline restaurant sometime in the 90s.  Not an everyday sight..  What your seeing up front is shadows not an odd paint scheme.

 

Maybe one of our ACD guys knows more about this one.

[Cadillac Fan]

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2019/05/28/a-murphy-bodied-duesenberg-model-j-fit-for-a-mistress/amp

Edited July 14, 2021 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[alsancle]

56 minutes ago, Cadillac Fan said:

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2019/05/28/a-murphy-bodied-duesenberg-model-j-fit-for-a-mistress/amp

 

 

He has great taste in cars but I think he missed on the color on this one.   It sold for a lot of money a few years ago at auction.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

So now I see this is the same car.   I think Ed or someone referred to this one being a CT car a while back on another thread. I must have snapped my pics prior to them selling it in 96 and subsequent restoration.  Did not know it was a one off but a pretty cool history.  As noted, it was shown and driven regularly at that time.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

If this Duesenberg J, particularly his view, doesn't make you weak in the knees...check to see if you have a pulse!

[Cadillac Fan]

43 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

So this is the same car?  I think Ed or someone referred to the blue one being a CT car a while back on another thread. 

Yes.  There is a “similar” one, now two tone per original,I believe , but the hinges are opposite the blue one. On the b pillar.    I am sure there are loads of other differences, too. 
 

 

 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

1 hour ago, Cadillac Fan said:

Yes.  There is a “similar” one, now two tone per original,I believe , but the hinges are opposite the blue one. On the b pillar.    I am sure there are loads of other differences, too. 
 

 

 

The caretaker for that one is a bit on the eccentric side... 😁

[TAKerry]

That is one great looking car, and the story of the original owner is interesting in itself.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

 

He has great taste in cars but I think he missed on the color on this one.   It sold for a lot of money a few years ago at auction.

I am not crazy about this indigo color either but, if the car was 'restored" was this an example of the original color or was the car the pale green color at the beginning of its life?

[alsancle]

41 minutes ago, GregLaR said:

I am not crazy about this indigo color either but, if the car was 'restored" was this an example of the original color or was the car the pale green color at the beginning of its life?

 

I believe all of George Whittel's Duesenbergs were black with a lot of extra chrome trim.

[1937hd45]

Another green  J here at the Ridgefield Meet in 1965, wonder if it is now in a Virginia collection. I was 14 when I took this photo, first "High Dollar" car I ever heard people talking about, Doc Mead in the jacket & tie with shades was almost a player at the $7,000 asking price. 

[edinmass]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

I believe all of George Whittel's Duesenbergs were black with a lot of extra chrome trim.

WRONG! 🤐

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

The caretaker for that one is a bit on the eccentric side... 😁

 

I resemble that remark. The purple car drives well.........been there, done that! 🤭

[alsancle]

8 hours ago, edinmass said:

WRONG! 🤐

 

Why don't you list the other ones.   These are the four I'm familiar with.   I do not know what color the purple car was originally.   Yes, that is your ugly mug ruining one of the pictures.

 

 

 

 

 

[Cadillac Fan]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

 

 

 

 

Is that an auburn salon front bumper on the boat tail?

[edinmass]

 

"Why don't you list the other ones.   These are the four I'm familiar with.   I do not know what color the purple car was originally."

 

He bought seven Model J's new. Two were ordered in non typical color schemes from his trademark Black/White/Chrome motif. Both went to women other than his wife. One went to his mistress of many years, the other to the madame that kept track of the 20 concubines for the parties. All his cars still exist. They are the most coveted Model J's by the serious Duesenberg collectors. I can't post photos of the two off color cars, as they are not mine to share. 

[K8096]

One is an all black Murphy conv coupe, no?  It was in one of the Harrah auctions.  

[West Peterson]

17 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

The caretaker for that one is a bit on the eccentric side... 😁

 

And hard to deal with too. Have you ever tried buying parts from him? He'll nickel and dime you to death.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

19 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

 

And hard to deal with too. Have you ever tried buying parts from him? He'll nickel and dime you to death.

Well, I referred a new 31 Caddy owner looking for help on Fordbarn his way yesterday, I figure usual rates and usual commission. 🤔😁

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

And hard to deal with too. Have you ever tried buying parts from him? He'll nickel and dime you to death.

 

 

Gee.......no more free delivery of parts to Amelia or Hershey!  😉

[Graham Man]

Duesenberg Model J, with limousine body by Willoughby: 1935

This one has the correct fenders to the original posted green car... not 1932 fenders

 

[alsancle]

The fenders and wheels should match.  19” wheels got open fenders and 17” wheels got skirted.   Or vice versa.

[alsancle]

I think this is the Murphy convertible coupe.  

 

 

[edinmass]

Yup.....that's George's Murphy roadster.

[Cadillac Fan]

Six of the George Whittel Duesenbergs are in this thread. What was the seventh car?  

Edited July 22, 2021 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

On 7/13/2021 at 2:19 PM, Steve_Mack_CT said:

A bitsa and a scramble are essentially the same thing, b

I was thinking about the "bitsa" comments while looking over the prow of my John Deere the other day. In the early 1960's I used to sit and talk with my great uncle Sam. Yeah, I really had an Uncle Sam, Sam Efford. After serving as a Navy (coal shoveler) engineer, he worked his way through Simplex automotive maching to become a Chrysler production manager.

He explained how the quality inspectors scrapped the badly botched stuff, but slid the mediocre quality parts off to the back bins. As the model or series drew toward the end the mediocre parts were retrieved to to produce another car with manufacturing a quantity of parts. I can see ACD having a few of those bins out in a back building, kind of making their own bitsa right on the line.

[Captain Harley]

10 hours ago, alsancle said:

I think this is the Murphy convertible coupe.  

 

 

Is that a 3 can (gas-oil-water) service unit on the running board?🤔

 

Capt. Harley😉

 

Skirts are for women not car fenders!

[1937hd45]

After all these years, I never knew there was a top and side windows.